623 réponses à ce sujet

[Battlebloodmage]

I think that was a mechanic that should have been nixed. I think Liara should have been completely left out of the Redemption arc, and had it focus more on Cerberus acquiring Shepard's body from the Blue Suns, Shadow Broker, and Collectors, with new characters, or possibly even Miranda and Jacob (to set them up for the next game), and to have used ME3 characters like James to end up finding the Prothean data via the Collectors or on a mission. It sets up characters for the next game. 

 

Even without those, I can understand the idea for Liara in ME1 and ME2, but once ME3 starts, it really should be anybody's game on who can live and who can die or who gets sent off to Hackett or why. ME3's vital plot relevance, in my opinion, should not extend past the Mars mission.

Is there a reason why Liara's role should have been given to other characters? It would be extra work considering ALL the squadmates can die before ME3 except for Liara, they need to account for that. 

[TheTurtle]

Is there a reason why Liara's role should have been given to other characters? It would be extra work considering ALL the squadmates can die before ME3 except for Liara, they need to account for that.

That really shouldn't have been a problem. The suicide mission while cool was a great example of short-term planning. If they wanted to give people a opportunity to have characters die they should have done it in ME3 it makes just as much if not more sense than the SM.

[Mordokai]

She really shouldn't have been that important. I'm saying that it was indeed a bad decision to make her so plot relevant.

 

That's an all together separate argument from the one we're currently engaged in.

 

No one could've decripited Geth data except for Tali, no one except for Mordin could've solved the problem with the Collectors, no one could've resurrected Shep except for Miranda, EDI saved everyone multiple times. The game couldn't have continued without any of these characters, Liara is hardly the second most important, all characters are equally important.

Btw, blood connections to Saren's second are overall pretty irrelevant.

 

There are other talented mechanics and decryptors, they not need even be quarian. Sure, they are the best, but hardly the only ones who could crack the code. There are other talented geneticists that could provide solution for seeker swarms. Miranda didn't reconstructed Shepard, she was basically an overseer for the project and the team that did it, at least to the best of my understanding.

 

And once again, none of that could have been done if it wasn't for Liara.

 

I think that was a mechanic that should have been nixed. I think Liara should have been completely left out of the Redemption arc, and had it focus more on Cerberus acquiring Shepard's body from the Blue Suns, Shadow Broker, and Collectors, with new characters, or possibly even Miranda and Jacob (to set them up for the next game), and to have used ME3 characters like James to end up finding the Prothean data via the Collectors or on a mission. It sets up characters for the next game. 

 

Even without those, I can understand the idea for Liara in ME1 and ME2, but once ME3 starts, it really should be anybody's game on who can live and who can die or who gets sent off to Hackett or why. ME3's vital plot relevance, in my opinion, should not extend past the Mars mission.

 

Be that as it may, those are evidences that reinforce the fact that Liara is important in the universe and to Shepard. And that's what OP was asking.

[TheTurtle]

There are other talented geneticists that could provide solution for seeker swarms. Miranda didn't reconstructed Shepard, she was basically an overseer for the project and the team that did it, at least to the best of my understanding.

I'm pretty sure Miranda worked personally on Shepard there are a few lines that suggest this, but I can't recall exactly what they are; you should ask Massively he probably knows.

You can't really say there are no other Asari prothean expertswho can do what Liara does then turn around and say that there is some other geneticists out there that can do Mordins' job. Blood ties are not important as you can easily finish off Benezia before getting Liara and that relationship was never examined beyond a couple of lines.

If you've read Redemption then you saw that a lot of what occured there could have easily and more effectivley been done by someone else. In fact it should have because that comic spits in the face of anyone who choose not to be nice to her and kinda ruins the whole choices you make matter thing.

[Mordokai]

I'm pretty sure Miranda worked personally on Shepard there are a few lines that suggest this, but I can't recall exactly what they are; you should ask Massively he probably knows.

You can't really say there are no other Asari prothean expertswho can do what Liara does then turn around and say that there is some other geneticists out there that can do Mordins' job. Blood ties are not important as you can easily finish off Benezia before getting Liara and that relationship was never examined beyond a couple of lines.

If you've read Redemption then you saw that a lot of what occured there could have easily and more effectivley been done by someone else. In fact it should have because that comic spits in the face of anyone who choose not to be nice to her and kinda ruins the whole choices you make matter thing.

 

The whole blood relation to Benezia is important because Udina and Anderson assumed Liara'd have some information on her whereabouts, motives, goals... it turned out false, but the premise and logic behind it was solid. She turns out to be able to help in other ways, namely, with her knowledge of the Protheans. Why look for another Prothean expert when you already have one?

 

Oh and she is a biotic powerhouse, so I guess that helps too.

 

And I won't go into arguing about Redemption. It's there. It shows things as they happened. I still don't know if it's supposed to be canon and if it has backing of Bioware and EA. I assume as much. We could go into arguing why it wasn't anybody else of Shepard's team members that recovered their body, but we've(not you and I, but the boards in general) been through this already and I don't feel like repeating it. And I certainly won't invoke the supposed canonical events again, because that never ends well.

[XxproknifaxX]

Maybe Garrus considering his Shepard best friend through the series?

[Han Shot First]

I think it was Gaider who said that the most popular characters tend to be the ones that are (1) funny, and (2) never oppose the player's will. Garrus seems to fall squarely within that category. While I don't dislike Garrus or anything, I'm not convinced that traits (1) and (2) automatically make for great characters.

 

EDIT: Removed some smileys.

 

Garrus is one of my favorite characters. 

 

Having said that, those two reasons are exactly  why he is probably the fan favorite squad mate. He is a funny yes man. Gamers tend to like humorous yes men as their toon's companions. It has nothing to do with the character being amazingly well written, as Garrus wasn't written better than any other companion. Also he is a male and falls easily into the 'bro' category.

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't think that's true.

 

In general, Garrus tends to disagree with Paragon characters more than many other squadmates do. And the statistics do say the overwhelmingly majority of characters are Paragon.

 

No, there's something else behind it. There's a reason why Garrus is overwhelmingly the most popular female love interest and overwhelmingly seen as a badass by just about everyone.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't think that's true.

 

In general, Garrus tends to disagree with Paragon characters more than many other squadmates do. And the statistics do say the overwhelmingly majority of characters are Paragon.

 

No, there's something else behind it. There's a reason why Garrus is overwhelmingly the most popular female love interest and overwhelmingly seen as a badass by just about everyone.

 

Then enlighten us with your skewed opinion almighty facts professor David!

[Bob from Accounting]

People are drawn to Garrus for the same reason they're drawn to heroes and powerful people in fiction in general. He's very competent. He possesses great will and courage.

 

Very alluring traits.

[themikefest]

He's not popular with me. He has no purpose in ME3 and he is not a bada**. He's more like a wet noodle. He was better in ME2. Why do I need him when I have James? In most of my ME3 playthroughs he's dead.

 

[themikefest]

People are drawn to Garrus for the same reason they're drawn to heroes and powerful people in fiction in general. He's very competent. He possesses great will and courage.

 

Very alluring traits.

How much of a hero are you Bob from Accounting?

[jtav]

Garrus might occasionally object to Paragon acts, but not very strongly. His character is defined, in part, by always having Shepard's back, regardless of what Shep does.

As for the deuteragonist, I'd say TIM, who does a heck of a lot to drive the plot of the last two games. Liara--the entire squad, really--are significant only insofar as they support Shepard. This isn't DA where you have a bunch of characters who are significant to the narrative independent of the PC.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Is there a reason why Liara's role should have been given to other characters? It would be extra work considering ALL the squadmates can die before ME3 except for Liara, they need to account for that. 

 

As I said, Miranda and Jacob would have her role in Redemption: They aren't dead by ME2, which leaves them free to do the mission. In ME3, James would be alive to have his actions in Paragon Lost be more relevant and not a complete waste of time for the most part. Make his actions have relevance to the plot. Have Liara's plot relevance end after Mars (or after you get a third squadmate).

[MassivelyEffective0730]

People are drawn to Garrus for the same reason they're drawn to heroes and powerful people in fiction in general. He's very competent. He possesses great will and courage.

 

Very alluring traits.

 

Huh, I thought it was because of rule of cool. 

 

To be frank, I deny that as truth. That's your skewing of the opinions, and what you want it to mean.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Garrus might occasionally object to Paragon acts, but not very strongly. His character is defined, in part, by always having Shepard's back, regardless of what Shep does.

As for the deuteragonist, I'd say TIM, who does a heck of a lot to drive the plot of the last two games. Liara--the entire squad, really--are significant only insofar as they support Shepard. This isn't DA where you have a bunch of characters who are significant to the narrative independent of the PC.

 

I'd say TIM serves more as the antagonist, though deuteragonist and antagonist aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Bob from Accounting]

Do you even have a clue what these terms mean? 'Rule of Cool' is not about the reaction from the audience, which is the issue at hand here.

 

The Illusive Man is absolutely not a deuteragonist. It makes no difference how much stuff he causes.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Do you even have a clue what these terms mean? 'Rule of Cool' is not about the reaction from the audience, which is the issue at hand here.

 

The Illusive Man is absolutely not a deuteragonist. It makes no difference how much stuff he causes.

 

Do you have a clue about what they mean? I'm not interested in your interpretation of the words. You make words mean whatever you want them to mean. It's why people disregard your opinion. It's self-fulfilling, and self-placating. It's not worth anything.

[themikefest]

Just have Cerberus agents recover the body.

 

When on Illium T'soni passes information about the broker. Shepard finds and kills the broker. Downloads all information before destroying the ship. Gives information about Protheans to T'soni that leads to the Crucible plans on Mars.

[Sir DeLoria]

There are no other asari with decent Prothean knowledge around. There was nobody else to send Shepard's corpse back to Cerberus.

There are other talented mechanics and decryptors, they not need even be quarian. Sure, they are the best, but hardly the only ones who could crack the code. There are other talented geneticists that could provide solution for seeker swarms. Miranda didn't reconstructed Shepard, she was basically an overseer for the project and the team that did it, at least to the best of my understanding.

Hahaha, oh my god you're a hypocrite. Honestly, your argument is so ridiculous it really boils down to "mu waifu is special and no one can ever, ever replace her" but oh, you certainly know that everyone else can easily be replaced, don't mind the fact that ME1 can be nearly finished without smurfette.

Fyi, Tali actually couldn't have been replaced, because it was in incredible coincidence that she even found the Reaper information on a desolate world somewhere in Geth space(the Council even prohibits entering that area). It is highly unlikely anyone would've found it, so without Tali the galaxy would've been doomed.

I really don't get why you're so hell bent on estabishing blueberry as the "second most important character in ME" and ignore the fact that literally almost everyone was equally important.

[Sir DeLoria]

The Illusive Man is absolutely not a deuteragonist. It makes no difference how much stuff he causes.

And do you have any evidence supporting your claim? Do you know what a deuteragonist even is?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

And do you have any evidence supporting your claim? Do you know what a deuteragonist even is?

 

Of course he does. It's on tv tropes. And if it's not what he wants it to be, he'll just change it.

[von uber]

Jacob, zaeed, samara, thane, jack, kasumi and James are not important.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Jacob, zaeed, samara, thane, jack, kasumi and James are not important.

 

I'd argue about James and Jacobs utility to the plot compared to others.

[Sir DeLoria]

Of course he does. It's on tv tropes. And if it's not what he wants it to be, he'll just change it.

New trope "Word of David", an unsupported, biased, often ridiculous and baseless claim thrown into the middle of a discussion that is defendend until someone makes a great counter-argument. In that case the discussion will be suddenly and quietly left.