623 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Jacob was supposed to be the secondary male lead in the tradition of Carth, Alistair, and Kaidan. They failed badly and got Anomen instead.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Jacob was supposed to be the secondary male lead in the tradition of Carth, Alistair, and Kaidan. They failed badly and got Anomen instead.

 

I get the first part. But what do you mean with Anomen? I never played those games.

 

And yes, Jacob was a **** secondary male lead.

[jtav]

Anomen is the rather infamous LI for females in BG. People hated him for his personality and lousy stats. Usually the LI can find a dedicated fanbase ("fangirls") but everyone hated Anomen. Never saw such a backlash until Jacob.

[Bob from Accounting]

Jacob was not a 'backlash.' Nobody 'hated' him. That's silly. People were mostly just indifferent to him.

[Mordokai]

Hahaha, oh my god you're a hypocrite. Honestly, your argument is so ridiculous it really boils down to "mu waifu is special and no one can ever, ever replace her" but oh, you certainly know that everyone else can easily be replaced, don't mind the fact that ME1 can be nearly finished without smurfette.

Fyi, Tali actually couldn't have been replaced, because it was in incredible coincidence that she even found the Reaper information on a desolate world somewhere in Geth space(the Council even prohibits entering that area). It is highly unlikely anyone would've found it, so without Tali the galaxy would've been doomed.

I really don't get why you're so hell bent on estabishing blueberry as the "second most important character in ME" and ignore the fact that literally almost everyone was equally important.

 

And I love it when you act all condescending and mighty

 

It wasn't my idea that Liara can't be replaced, but Bioware's. I'm just going on what they showed us. And yes, I perhaps went a little too far when saying everybody could be replaced, but that was in reply to your own logic, when you stated Liara could be replaced. If she can be, trust me, anybody else can be replaced just as well. Perhaps I could express myself better, but what's done is done.

 

As for Tali, I never said she couldn't be replaced. In fact, third game goes as far as to show that no, she can't be replaced, since nobody replaces her if she died on suicide mission. I said that there wasn't even a needed in the first place. The first game could easily have you failing to come to her aid in time and when time runs out, the scene rolls and Shepard comes to the scene, sees Tali get shot, chases the assassins away, says a few inspiring words and confiscates the omni-tool. Voila. There was really no need to have her on board. In fact, I would dare say that Tali was *le gasp* forced on us!

[KaiserShep]

It's so good that Liara can bring us all together as a group.

 

[DigitalMaster37]

Oh the Liara hate, yet she gets a thread almost daily... or at least comments about her quite often. 

 

What I find most interesting is that there are still people trying to soothe themselves by dismissing her importance and trying to kill her off in their game and "posting" about it as if that effects those of us who like her, or somehow makes the message of hate hit home more. I must admit, this stuff is amusing. 

 

I would try to help some people and say just play the game the way you like without trying to convert people to your cause... Just love the characters you love and get over it and yourself... but alas, that would both achieve nothing and no one would listen... also it would take away from my lunch break entertainment... so carry on... 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Jacob was supposed to be the secondary male lead in the tradition of Carth, Alistair, and Kaidan. They failed badly and got Anomen instead.

Uh, they failed with Carth and maybe Kaidan, also. Haven't played any of the Dragon Age games. 

Anyway, the fact of the matter is every single squadmate is replaceable, or unneeded. The only squadmates that are required for the main plot in the games themselves are Liara and Mordin. And they could be replaced by some other random person. Well, not Mordin. Someone else might have gotten it wrong. 

Anyway, for everyone here's arguing about Liara, it's not like your waifu is any more important, or any more of a better character. 

[jtav]

Have you seen the sheer number of Carth and Kaidan fangirls? They may be disliked/ignored by a large portion of the fanbase, but they also have vocal support. Jacob didn't.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Uh, they failed with Carth and maybe Kaidan, also. Haven't played any of the Dragon Age games. 

Anyway, the fact of the matter is every single squadmate is replaceable, or unneeded. The only squadmates that are required for the main plot in the games themselves are Liara and Mordin. And they could be replaced by some other random person. Well, not Mordin. Someone else might have gotten it wrong. 

Anyway, for everyone here's arguing about Liara, it's not like your waifu is any more important, or any more of a better character. 

 

Carth gets a lot more love than a lot of people think. He's a popular bashing target among gamers maybe, but among Star Wars fans, he's pretty popular; His reasoning for his issues is pretty reasonable; I just think they made him come off as too self-righteous and paranoid in a few cases. If you play a female Revan and romance him, the story is actually pretty good.

 

There's a list for some of the typical BW character archetypes: This one isn't entirely accurate, as many of the characters have different traits.

 

My argument is that Liara should not have gotten said treatment. Personally, I think her plot mandated immortality and importance should have vanished in ME3. In fact, I think the SM Mechanic should have been held off until ME3. 

[Mordokai]

Oh the Liara hate, yet she gets a thread almost daily... or at least comments about her quite often. 

 

What I find most interesting is that there are still people trying to soothe themselves by dismissing her importance and trying to kill her off in their game and "posting" about it as if that effects those of us who like her, or somehow makes the message of hate hit home more. I must admit, this stuff is amusing.

 

That one is amusing, yes. Or sad. Haven't quite figured out which.

[themikefest]

Oh the Liara hate, yet she gets a thread almost daily... or at least comments about her quite often. 

 

What I find most interesting is that there are still people trying to soothe themselves by dismissing her importance and trying to kill her off in their game and "posting" about it as if that effects those of us who like her, or somehow makes the message of hate hit home more. I must admit, this stuff is amusing. 

 

You have any prove to that assumption?

 

Yes I have killed her off because the game lets me and I did it for specific playthroughs. I have done 15 low ems playthroughs(below 1900) and currently playing another low ems(below 1900) and she was only on 4 of those beam runs. So that's hardly saying I wanted to kill her off. The rest was James and Ashley.

 

What do I care if somehow it makes the message of hate hit home more?  If you take it that way that's your problem. And if there was an opprotunity to kill her off during the game, I would do it, but not every time. That would take away replay value for me and get boring.

 

So I have to admit your post is amusing.

[Sir DeLoria]

So dismissing the claim that Liara is the "second most important character" and saying that there all characters are equally important is Liara hate now? ...ok...

[KaiserShep]

Wait, Jacob was meant to be a secondary male lead? The very idea makes me feel sleepy.

[Sir DeLoria]

And I love it when you act all condescending and mighty
 
It wasn't my idea that Liara can't be replaced, but Bioware's. I'm just going on what they showed us. And yes, I perhaps went a little too far when saying everybody could be replaced, but that was in reply to your own logic, when you stated Liara could be replaced. If she can be, trust me, anybody else can be replaced just as well. Perhaps I could express myself better, but what's done is done.
 
As for Tali, I never said she couldn't be replaced. In fact, third game goes as far as to show that no, she can't be replaced, since nobody replaces her if she died on suicide mission. I said that there wasn't even a needed in the first place. The first game could easily have you failing to come to her aid in time and when time runs out, the scene rolls and Shepard comes to the scene, sees Tali get shot, chases the assassins away, says a few inspiring words and confiscates the omni-tool. Voila. There was really no need to have her on board. In fact, I would dare say that Tali was *le gasp* forced on us!

It's debatable, wether or not she's required for finding Ilos, but there is no reason why she of all characters would be the only one able to find Shep's body. Now your example of Tali is actually pretty of topic, we're not debating who has a right to be on board and who hasn't. Not just that, but the credit of finding the galaxy saving data would still fall to her, even if she were to die. In the sense of the story she still remains a vital character.

The point that Liara is no more important than the other vital squad mates still stands.

[Han Shot First]

It's debatable, wether or not she's required for finding Ilos, but there is no reason why she of all characters would be the only one able to find Shep's body. 

 

And if Bioware instead chose to have Tali or Garrus recover Shepard's body, there also wouldn't have been anything that would make either character irreplaceable in that role. In short, the argument against Liara recovering the corpse is based entirely on not liking the character, which makes it a weak argument. 

[FlyingSquirrel]

She actually doesn't have that much shipboard dialogue in ME1 - after you get past the point where you say you're interested in her or turn her down, I think she only has one more relatively short conversation to be triggered for the rest of the game, whereas it seemed like Ashley and Kaidan had a little more to say. Their conversations were certainly longer, as were some of Tali's and maybe one or two of Wrex's.

 

I still don't really buy her change in character in ME2. She goes through ME1 having her theories about the protheans upended in a single conversation on the Normandy, being attacked by the geth, seeing her own indoctrinated mother die, and witnessing the Citadel trashed in a near-miss of a galactic invasion without changing much, but then Shepard dying and crossing paths with Cerberus and the Shadow Broker turns her all ruthless and cynical?

 

(Looking back on it, I wonder if BW was looking ahead to ME3 and figuring someone else from ME1 besides the VS needed to be a guaranteed survivor in the next game, though they could have come up with a different reason for Liara - or Garrus or Tali, for that matter - not to join the SR2.)

 

That said, as an archaeologist-turned-inforrmation-broker, she's the logical choice as the person to assemble the time capsule and find a way to hide it. The only problem with that scene was that there wasn't more variety based on whether or not she and Shepard had been especially close friends or not - it only seems to vary based on Paragon/Renegade status and the couple of dialogue choices.

[Sir DeLoria]

And if Bioware instead chose to have Tali or Garrus recover Shepard's body, there also wouldn't have been anything that would make either character irreplaceable in that role. In short, the argument against Liara recovering the corpse is based entirely on not liking the character, which makes it a weak argument.

You're taking that quote out of context, it was on the topic of Liara being irreplaceable. I agree with you, any character could've done it.

[Barquiel]

Liara is in the middle of everything...just as she should be

 

 

Seriously though, I don't think the series really has a deuteragonist like KotoR for example. I guess a case could be made for Anderson (who figures extremely prominently in the ME novels) as the deuteragonist. He is also the last person Shepard interacts with...but he doesn't really have much screentime in the games. Liara is crucial to the story (more than any other squadmate), but you can complete ME2 without ever setting foot on Illium. I think she would be the deuteragonist if ME3 was a stand-alone game.

[Animositisomina]

I know what a protagonist is and an antagonist... what is a "deuteragonist"?

[themikefest]

I know what a protagonist is and an antagonist... what is a "deuteragonist"?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Deuteragonist

[ImaginaryMatter]

I know what a protagonist is and an antagonist... what is a "deuteragonist"?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Deuteragonist

 

Basically as the link said. Although it's really hard to judge importance in this series. Liara is a forced buddy/sidekick who has all sorts of important things she does in the plot. Garrus is another side kick but one who has practically no relevance. I think a valid nominee is TIM as the guy apparently set into motion or somehow influenced most of the events in the story that Shepard reacts to.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

And if Bioware instead chose to have Tali or Garrus recover Shepard's body, there also wouldn't have been anything that would make either character irreplaceable in that role. In short, the argument against Liara recovering the corpse is based entirely on not liking the character, which makes it a weak argument. 

 

As I've said, I think they should have had Cerberus characters, such as Miranda or Jacob (but certainly not limited to them) be the ones to locate and secure Shepard's body.

 

That said, partially, yes, my argument is based on not liking Liara. That said, I don't think it's too much of a question to ask why she does have so much importance in the plot. Why she gets to be the character that, second to Shepard, solves the most problems. I found her character to be inconsistent, leaping to competence and action over Shepard's death. She takes it very personally, which, beyond the context of a romance, I find very difficult to reconcile with a character. Especially of you don't treat her well in ME1. 

 

In Paragon Lost, she's literally shoe-horned into the story for no reason than to have her appear. My question isn't over whether or not she's important to the plot or not. My question is why does she have to be so important to the plot. Why couldn't they have used the 'Recovery of Shepard's Body Arc' to be a better introduction to Miranda and/or Jacob (possibly Miranda, since Jacob had an introductory game for iOS)? Why did Liara have to suddenly become a big intelligence broker out of nowhere? Why did she have to be the one to solve all of the clues for the Crucible in lieu of a detained Shepard? 

[grey_wind]

The same could be said about every character though.

I agree with this. Garrus is another example, but he doesn't get as much flak as Liara because you can choose not to recruit him in ME1, ignore him all of ME2 other than his recruitment mission, and have him dead for ME3.

 

Of the big three (Liara, Garrus, and Tali), only Tali's large role is justified, seeing how she's intrinsically tied into the Geth-Quarian conflict (ironically, she also has the smallest role of the big three). Both Garrus and Liara are obsolete after the events of ME1, but at least the story doesn't keep trying to pretend that Garrus is the most important person in the universe.

[Han Shot First]

As I've said, I think they should have had Cerberus characters, such as Miranda or Jacob (but certainly not limited to them) be the ones to locate and secure Shepard's body.

 

 

 

I'm not sure whether it is something the writers gave much thought to, bit I think there is some solid reasoning for having the Illusive Man use one of Shepard's former companions instead of his own people to recover the corpse. He couldn't risk Miranda or Wilson; Assuming the corpse was successfully recovered, they would be vital to the Lazarus Project. It would be pointless to recover the corpse and yet lose either one of the project's lead scientists in the process. Jacob, Kai Leng, or some nameless Cerberus goon would have perhaps been more expendable than either Miranda or Wilson, but they had not known Shepard previously and as such had no emotional connection to him. Using someone who does have an emotional connection to Shepard, whether that connection was as a comrade-in-arms, close friend, or lover...makes some sense. A person with an emotional connection to Shepard would be more willing to take risks to recover the corpse than someone who doesn't.

 

 

MassivelyEffective0730, on 21 Apr 2014 - 4:00 PM, said:

 

In Paragon Lost, she's literally shoe-horned into the story for no reason than to have her appear. My question isn't over whether or not she's important to the plot or not. My question is why does she have to be so important to the plot. Why couldn't they have used the 'Recovery of Shepard's Body Arc' to be a better introduction to Miranda and/or Jacob (possibly Miranda, since Jacob had an introductory game for iOS)? Why did Liara have to suddenly become a big intelligence broker out of nowhere? Why did she have to be the one to solve all of the clues for the Crucible in lieu of a detained Shepard?

 

The purpose of Liara's cameo in Paragon Lost was to reveal the events of the previous games to Vega and Treeya, and in doing so, to reveal the backstory setting up the cartoon to viewers who hadn't played the previously games. That role may not have been necessary for you, but that is because you've played the games. If you hadn't, you would need a character to provide you with that info dump. If not Liara you would still need a character from the previous games, who played a direct role in the events being described, to provide that info dump. You would also need a character that was guaranteed to be be alive in all playthroughs. That leaves Liara, EDI, and Joker for that role. Of the three Liara by far makes the most sense, particularly when you consider that Treeya is both Asari and a xenoanthropologist and was going to have a past connection to the person providing the info dump.

 

As for Liara being an information broker, I partially agree. I like the direction they took the character in after Mass Effect 1, my only complaint is that it wasn't developed properly. You can develop characters into dramatically different dirrections in fiction, so long as that progression is sold well. The series Breaking Bad is a great example of this, with a mild-mannered High School chemistry teacher transitioning into a ruthless mass-murdering drug lord by series end. People were able to accept that dramatic shift because it was slowly developed over the course of five years and five seasons. Now obviously something like that is a bit harder to pull off in a game series, where the characters have far less dialogue and screen time than a character in a television series. But if the how and why of Liara being an information broker couldn't be explained well in game, I'd argue that perhaps that instead should have been the focus of the Homeworld comic. Or perhaps it should have been the focus of one of the novels. I don't think there was anything wrong however with making Liara an information broker. The idea was solid, it just wasn't developed properly.

 

As for the Crucible, I think Bioware got it right in having Liara be the one to discover the plans. Given that the plans for it are Prothean, it makes sense to have them be discovered by the archaeologist specializing in the Protheans. I think Liara makes more sense than Shepard for that role.