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Is Liara the deuteragonist of the series?


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#151
MassivelyEffective0730

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I'm not sure whether it is something the writers gave much thought to, bit I think there is some solid reasoning for having the Illusive Man use one of Shepard's former companions instead of his own people to recover the corpse. He couldn't risk Miranda or Wilson; Assuming the corpse was successfully recovered, they would be vital to the Lazarus Project. It would be pointless to recover the corpse and yet lose either one of the project's lead scientists in the process. Jacob, Kai Leng, or some nameless Cerberus goon would have perhaps been more expendable than either Miranda or Wilson, but they had not known Shepard previously and as such had no emotional connection to him. Using someone who does have an emotional connection to Shepard, whether that connection was as a comrade-in-arms, close friend, or lover...makes some sense. A person with an emotional connection to Shepard would be more willing to take risks to recover the corpse than someone who doesn't.

 

 

 

 

 

The purpose of Liara's cameo in Paragon Lost was to reveal the events of the previous games to Vega and Treeya, and in doing so, to reveal the backstory setting up the cartoon to viewers who hadn't played the previously games. That role may not have been necessary for you, but that is because you've played the games. If you hadn't, you would need a character to provide you with that info dump. If not Liara you would still need a character from the previous games, who played a direct role in the events being described, to provide that info dump. You would also need a character that was guaranteed to be be alive in all playthroughs. That leaves Liara, EDI, and Joker for that role. Of the three Liara by far makes the most sense, particularly when you consider that Treeya is both Asari and a xenoanthropologist and was going to have a past connection to the person providing the info dump.

 

As for Liara being an information broker, I partially agree. I like the direction they took the character in after Mass Effect 1, my only complaint is that it wasn't developed properly. You can develop characters into dramatically different dirrections in fiction, so long as that progression is sold well. The series Breaking Bad is a great example of this, with a mild-mannered High School chemistry teacher transitioning into a ruthless mass-murdering drug lord by series end. People were able to accept that dramatic shift because it was slowly developed over the course of five years and five seasons. Now obviously something like that is a bit harder to pull off in a game series, where the characters have far less dialogue and screen time than a character in a television series. But if the how and why of Liara being an information broker couldn't be explained well in game, I'd argue that perhaps that instead should have been the focus of the Homeworld comic. Or perhaps it should have been the focus of one of the novels. I don't think there was anything wrong however with making Liara an information broker. The idea was solid, it just wasn't developed properly.

 

As for the Crucible, I think Bioware got it right in having Liara be the one to discover the plans. Given that the plans for it are Prothean, it makes sense to have them be discovered by the archaeologist specializing in the Protheans. I think Liara makes more sense than Shepard for that role.

 

I'm honestly not seeing the need for someone who has an emotional connection to Shepard needing to find his body. Hell, Liara was acting on her own volition for nearly half the comic series to get his body back for reasons. Miranda would be suited since she's the operative who gets results. I don't see why she wouldn't do it. After all, she dedicated two years of her life to bringing him back from the dead, and without forming an emotional connection (or holding one with Shepard previously to his demise). She has the drive to succeed in her goal, and the will to accomplish the optimal result. Miranda has value to Cerberus, yes, but she's the type that would succeed regardless. I'd guess that she is TIM's go-to agent. In fact, she is his go-to person in the comics. That said, there's no need for her to have done it alone. Miranda's high enough on the Cerberus line that she can basically get whatever she needs to accomplish her mission from TIM. 

 

For this paragraph (your second): There's three more options. Hackett, Anderson, and Udina. Any of them could have served as exposition for the Collector Plot. Especially Anderson, considering it takes place at or shortly after ME2, when the alliance would have been told by Shepard, TIM, Cerberus, etc. that the Collectors had been defeated. Any of those three would have sufficed, and seeing as its an alliance military operation, it would have made more sense to involve any of them over Liara. I'm sorry, but I still think this is a case of her being made to fit into the most amount of content possible. Paragon Lost isn't a good movie in my opinion (I don't like the very liberal interpretations of the lore, the VA (then again, it is an anime flick; imo, anime is usually pretty poor quality), the fact that its anime, the plain bad storytelling, and of course, Liara being shoe-horned in. The Asari scientist was a token imo. She really didn't need to be there. At all.

 

I can agree to that, even if I still think Liara wasn't the best choice to make as an Information Broker. That said, not doing something for her would have really made her plot relevance disappear, since she'd essentially lose any real utility to the story as a civilian archaeologist. I think she could have played an Elena Fischer role more than anything. She'd come off as the perpetual damsel in distress, but I don't think a lot of people would be particularly worried at that aspect of her. For me though.

 

I'm fine with her being the one to discover the Crucible plans. That said, after Mars, imo, her importance to the plot to the point where she has to run her entire organization from the Normandy seems very contrived. Post-Mars, we should have had the option to send her off to Hackett. EDI and Sam can easily fill whatever role she had, and if she has to get in contact, she can just call you up on the Normandy or send you a message. And she definitely should have been more squishy in the game (as in, she should have had some kind of death meter, if only so that it really fit with the 'anyone can die mechanic'). 


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#152
KaiserShep

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You can't make a squad member too squishy or you essentially break her. You'd might as well remove her from the combat team, but fans wouldn't approve of that.

#153
themikefest

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You can't make a squad member too squishy or you essentially break her. You'd might as well remove her from the combat team, but fans wouldn't approve of that.

Why can't she be removed from the combat team? Bioware removed ME2 squadmates from the team in ME3



#154
MassivelyEffective0730

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You can't make a squad member too squishy or you essentially break her. You'd might as well remove her from the combat team, but fans wouldn't approve of that.

 

I mean give her a situation where it's possible to kill her in the game. Sort of like the Virmire decision that they had planned before. Granted, I think they should have left in the SM mechanic as well for the final battle.



#155
KaiserShep

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I didn't say that Liara can't be, only that it would be met with a great deal of disapproval from fans that actually like this character. As for the ME2 team, they were far too numerous and they can all be killed save for one necessary for Shepard to survive. That setup was doomed.

#156
TheTurtle

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I'm not sure whether it is something the writers gave much thought to, bit I think there is some solid reasoning for having the Illusive Man use one of Shepard's former companions instead of his own people to recover the corpse. He couldn't risk Miranda or Wilson; Assuming the corpse was successfully recovered, they would be vital to the Lazarus Project. It would be pointless to recover the corpse and yet lose either one of the project's lead scientists in the process. Jacob, Kai Leng, or some nameless Cerberus goon would have perhaps been more expendable than either Miranda or Wilson, but they had not known Shepard previously and as such had no emotional connection to him. Using someone who does have an emotional connection to Shepard, whether that connection was as a comrade-in-arms, close friend, or lover...makes some sense. A person with an emotional connection to Shepard would be more willing to take risks to recover the corpse than someone who doesn't.

 

 

 

 

 

The purpose of Liara's cameo in Paragon Lost was to reveal the events of the previous games to Vega and Treeya, and in doing so, to reveal the backstory setting up the cartoon to viewers who hadn't played the previously games. That role may not have been necessary for you, but that is because you've played the games. If you hadn't, you would need a character to provide you with that info dump. If not Liara you would still need a character from the previous games, who played a direct role in the events being described, to provide that info dump. You would also need a character that was guaranteed to be be alive in all playthroughs. That leaves Liara, EDI, and Joker for that role. Of the three Liara by far makes the most sense, particularly when you consider that Treeya is both Asari and a xenoanthropologist and was going to have a past connection to the person providing the info dump.

 

As for Liara being an information broker, I partially agree. I like the direction they took the character in after Mass Effect 1, my only complaint is that it wasn't developed properly. You can develop characters into dramatically different dirrections in fiction, so long as that progression is sold well. The series Breaking Bad is a great example of this, with a mild-mannered High School chemistry teacher transitioning into a ruthless mass-murdering drug lord by series end. People were able to accept that dramatic shift because it was slowly developed over the course of five years and five seasons. Now obviously something like that is a bit harder to pull off in a game series, where the characters have far less dialogue and screen time than a character in a television series. But if the how and why of Liara being an information broker couldn't be explained well in game, I'd argue that perhaps that instead should have been the focus of the Homeworld comic. Or perhaps it should have been the focus of one of the novels. I don't think there was anything wrong however with making Liara an information broker. The idea was solid, it just wasn't developed properly.

 

As for the Crucible, I think Bioware got it right in having Liara be the one to discover the plans. Given that the plans for it are Prothean, it makes sense to have them be discovered by the archaeologist specializing in the Protheans. I think Liara makes more sense than Shepard for that role.

Did people who didn't play the previous two games actually spend money on a dvd for a video game series that they haven't completed entirely. I've played all the games and I only ever watched that movie once because my friend bought it.



#157
themikefest

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If they can bring James and the robot to the combat team, why couldn't they bring in someone else to be on the team instead of T'soni? Or just have 3 new characters for the team. James as a soldier, someone as an engineer and someone as a biotic.



#158
KaiserShep

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If they can bring James and the robot to the combat team, why couldn't they bring in someone else to be on the team instead of T'soni? Or just have 3 new characters for the team. James as a soldier, someone as an engineer and someone as a biotic.


There's no point in replacing a character that is guaranteed to live, other than to meet the approval of people who want her gone.

#159
themikefest

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There's no point in replacing a character that is guaranteed to live, other than to meet the approval of people who want her gone.

She may live, but she is more useful being with Hackett than being on the Normandy.



#160
MassivelyEffective0730

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I didn't say that Liara can't be, only that it would be met with a great deal of disapproval from fans that actually like this character. As for the ME2 team, they were far too numerous and they can all be killed save for one necessary for Shepard to survive. That setup was doomed.

 

So it's alright to make every other squadmate killable, but not so for Liara? It's not even mandatory that she dies. No offense, but, minus the insults and snide condescending attitude, that's a pretty David-like argument. Why would they disapprove over the game mechanic where it's possible to kill her? Miranda can be killed twice, and I don't complain. I don't have to have her die. Hell, Tali can die 3 times through the course of the series, and the Tali fans don't go nuts that it's a possibility.

 

And the setup would have worked best if it was implemented in ME3. I think the SM should have had some forced character deaths, with a couple of Virmire choices between two characters as well. 


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#161
geth47

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This topic has given me an idea. To try a play of the trilogy with the mininum screen-time for liara. rescuing her for last in me1, NOT meeting her in me2 (if you have grunt activated as well as kasumi and kaed this is possible), or then meeting her and only doing the minimum talk in order to recruit thane and samara, and in me3 never talk to her nor take her in non-essential missions (like mars, palaven and thesia).  Also not going to the monastery so she wont debrief me. 

 

How about this for your 100th play,  themikefest?



#162
KaiserShep

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She may live, but she is more useful being with Hackett than being on the Normandy.


This reason is used often, but I'm simply not convinced that "making sense" is as important as "I want this character off the ship". Her utility as far as gameplay goes in this scenario you're suggesting is just a few points on the war assets list. That's about as useful to me as the Fenris mech in the cargo bay.

#163
Battlebloodmage

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What does SM stand for? Also, instead of arguing how her deuteragonist role could have fulfilled by other characters, I want to know why it couldn't have been her. Resource-wise, it would be less coding to use someone who can't die to be the default go to character. Liara is someone old fans know but also serve as information source for new fans. She's like a bridge character for the series. 



#164
TheTurtle

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What does SM stand for? Also, instead of arguing how her deuteragonist role could have fulfilled by other characters, I want to know why it couldn't have been her. Resource-wise, it would be less coding to use someone who can't die to be the default go to character. Liara is someone old fans know but also serve as information source for new fans. She's like a bridge character for the series. 

Suicide Mission I believe. 


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#165
Darks1d3

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To answer your question, SM references the Suicide Mission in ME2.

 

EDIT- Damn, Dayla beat me to it. Well now you have the benefit of two sources instead of one. :whistle:


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#166
Han Shot First

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Did people who didn't play the previous two games actually spend money on a dvd for a video game series that they haven't completed entirely. I've played all the games and I only ever watched that movie once because my friend bought it.

 

I'm sure some people did.

 

There are also people who played ME3 without having played ME1 or ME2.



#167
themikefest

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This reason is used often, but I'm simply not convinced that "making sense" is as important as "I want this character off the ship".

 It makes more sense than sending Ashley/Kaidan to Hackett if you choose to. What do they do when they're with Hackett? 

 

With Liara being with Hackett she could send Shepard emails stating who to see about acquiring resourses for the crucible and anything else that might help. She doesn't need to be on the Normandy for that.


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#168
KaiserShep

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So it's alright to make every other squadmate killable, but not so for Liara? It's not even mandatory that she dies. No offense, but, minus the insults and snide condescending attitude, that's a pretty David-like argument. Why would they disapprove over the game mechanic where it's possible to kill her? Miranda can be killed twice, and I don't complain. I don't have to have her die. Hell, Tali can die 3 times through the course of the series, and the Tali fans don't go nuts that it's a possibility.

And the setup would have worked best if it was implemented in ME3. I think the SM should have had some forced character deaths, with a couple of Virmire choices between two characters as well.

I never said anything was ok, but what I am saying is that ME2's mechanic is misplaced, and no matter what I think of it, the second game pretty much goofed. The trilogy should not have had a suicide mission that allows you to kill almost everyone until the last game. But in any case, ME2 left the next game holding the bag when it came to handling all of these companions.

#169
Sir DeLoria

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If they can bring James and the robot to the combat team, why couldn't they bring in someone else to be on the team instead of T'soni? Or just have 3 new characters for the team. James as a soldier, someone as an engineer and someone as a biotic.


Miranda is very hard to kill in the SM and her reason for not joining in ME3 is ridiculous. I wish she would've replaced the robot.
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#170
KaiserShep

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It makes more sense than sending Ashley/Kaidan to Hackett if you choose to. What do they do when they're with Hackett? 
 
With Liara being with Hackett she could send Shepard emails stating who to see about acquiring resourses for the crucible and anything else that might help. She doesn't need to be on the Normandy for that.


I have no qualms with making it optional to send her off, but I very much disagree with her removal for the final game being mandatory.

#171
themikefest

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I never said anything was ok, but what I am saying is that ME2's mechanic is misplaced. The trilogy should not have had a suicide mission that allows you to kill almost everyone until the last game. But in any case, ME2 left the next game holding the bag when it came to handling all of these companions.

You could also add to that, you only needed 8 squadmembers to go through the relay and still have all survive insead of having 12.



#172
TheTurtle

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I'm sure some people did.

 

There are also people who played ME3 without having played ME1 or ME2.

Oh I know that, but it seems like the DVD is something you buy if you're really interested in the trilogy and it seems like someone would want to play the other two before going lore building. Maybe it's just me.. but oh well what are you gonna do. :P


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#173
themikefest

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I have no qualms with making it optional to send her off, but I very much disagree with her removal for the final game being mandatory.

I will agree about making her optional. That would give me even more replay value.



#174
Battlebloodmage

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Miranda is very hard to kill in the SM and her reason for not joining in ME3 is ridiculous. I wish she would've replaced the robot.

Tali almost didn't make until there were some writers decide to convince the team otherwise. I think it would have come down to either her or Miranda, and Tali would be more relevant to bring closure to the geth/quarian war. There would also be the issue of why Miranda would make it over Jack.  



#175
Sir DeLoria

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Tali almost didn't make until there were some writers decide to convince the team otherwise. I think it would have come down to either her or Miranda, and Tali would be more relevant to bring closure to the geth/quarian war. There would also be the issue of why Miranda would make it over Jack.


Weekes wanted to include Tali, but I don't think BW ever seriously intended to incoude Miranda. Perhaps because her Cerberus background would've made the conflict with that faction a little more grey-zoned. BW of course instead wanted to reduce. Cerberus to a bunch of idiotic stereotypical villains and mooks.
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