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[Deviija]

 

 It seems to be "accepted" like in modern Japan - as long as you're going to settle down with opposite sex spouse and start a family, there's not much concern about your "phase".

 

No.  We have had developers speak about that notion specifically in regard to *Fereldan*.  Fereldan is a very, very small mudpit compared to the whole world of Thedas.  And what developers did say was that having heirs was very important for aristocracy, and it was expected to pop out kids, and that saying you liked same-sex exclusively would only warrant someone giving you a look like you had a strange hair color.  Nothing else.

 

 

 

 My argument was that the vast, vast majority of couples we see in the games are m/f, making it incredibly unlikely that Thedas is predominantly bisexual. 

 

 

 

They are not mutually exclusive.  Again, a person is bisexual even if they are currently in a heterosexual relationship, same as it would be if they were a bisexual person currently in a homosexual relationship.  They do not suddenly cease becoming a bisexual person based on whether they are dating or are wed to a man or a woman.  And I say this as a married bisexual person myself.  

 

That you see twenty M/F couples in a game doesn't mean they're heterosexual people, it simply means there are 40 M/F people in heterosexual relationships.  The vast majority of those 40 people could self-identify as bisexual.  Thus, predominantly bisexual.  

[In Exile]

The games have an overabundance of bisexual characters compared to homosexual characters, certainly, and that's a gripe I've always had. That said, I believe that Thedas as a setting has a large spread of all different sexualities. I don't believe that bisexual people are the majority and straight/ homosexual people are a minority.  

 

I see what you mean now. Right, I'm not saying the majority is bisexual. I'm just saying we can't draw conclusions about the preponderance of sexualities from what we've seen, so Bioware is free to design what they want without recotnning previous games (not that this should even be a major concern when we're talking about an important goal like inclusion). 

[Sporothrix]

 

No.  We have had developers speak about that notion specifically in regard to *Fereldan*.  Fereldan is a very, very small mudpit compared to the whole world of Thedas.  And what developers did say was that having heirs was very important for aristocracy, and it was expected to pop out kids, and that saying you liked same-sex exclusively would only warrant someone giving you a look like you had a strange hair color.  Nothing else.

IIRC, there was also a mention about Orlais, where supposedly it was more accepted. They consider it there "a quirk of character".

[Knight of Dane]

I forgot about Anders/Karl, but that's probably because Anders is never a character I could romance with a PC of any gender. 

The Calling has a gay couple. I know it's not a game, but it's stil represented.

[renfrees]

Where have you seen gay elves? Because I haven't seen any. (Briala I guess, but she isn't in game.)

 

And we've seen three total bisexual elves, two of them existed within a game in which every love interest was bisexual. So... Zevran makes our "trend". If Alistair had been bisexual I doubt anyone would be talking about the "trend of bisexual blonde men" and hoping that Cullen would break the trend.

I think we can only speak of Zevran, as being bisexual. Merrill and Fenris doesn't mention past sexual relations with any gender, so I'd count them as playersexual.

 

Anders and Isabela, on the other hand, are bi.

[Hellion Rex]

The Calling has a gay couple. I know it's not a game, but it's stil represented.

Indeed, Nicolas and Julien.

 

I mean, for God's sake, we have a gay Empress ruling the biggest empire in Thedas!

[Ianamus]

 

They are not mutually exclusive.  Again, a person is bisexual even if they are currently in a heterosexual relationship, same as it would be if they were a bisexual person currently in a homosexual relationship.  They do not suddenly cease becoming a bisexual person based on whether they are dating or are wed to a man or a woman.  And I say this as a married bisexual person myself.  

 

That you see twenty M/F couples in a game doesn't mean they're heterosexual people, it simply means there are 40 M/F people in heterosexual relationships.  The vast majority of those 40 people could self-identify as bisexual.  Thus, predominantly bisexual.  

 

 

Look: People are saying that Thedas is "predominantly bisexual" that means more than 50% by definition. 

 

If more than 50% of the population are bisexual and homosexual relationships are not taboo you are not going to end up with more than 90% of relationships being between men and women. Statistics wise it just isn't going to happen. 

 

Therefore it stands to reason that if more than 90% of relationships are between men and women, like we have seen in the Dragon age games, the population is incredibly unlikely to be predominantly bisexual. 

 

And that's not even getting into the fact that same gender attraction would never be considered a "quirk" if half of the population felt it.

[daveliam]

I think we can only speak of Zevran, as being bisexual. Merrill and Fenris doesn't mention past sexual relations with any gender, so I'd count them as playersexual.

 

See and I think this is really interesting.  To me, it's precisely because they don't mention their orientation that I think of them as bisexual.  If Merrill said to Lady Hawke, "I'm a lesbian" and then said to Male Hawke, "I'm straight", that's what would make me call them playersexual.  Simply being available to both male and female characters reads more bisexual to me.  But I understand why your mileage may vary.

[Darth Krytie]

Look: People are saying that Thedas is "predominantly bisexual" that means more than 50% by definition. 

 

If more than 50% of the population are bisexual and homosexual relationships are not taboo you are not going to end up with more 90% of relationships being between men and women, statistics wise it just isn't going to happen. 

 

Therefore it stands to reason that if around 90% of relationships are between men and women, like we have seen in the Dragon age games, the population is incredibly unlikely to be predominantly bisexual. 

 

No, it doesn't mean that they're more than fifty percent. It just means they have the largest percentage. It only needs to be over 50 percent by definition if there are only TWO sexualities.

 

If there are more: Bi, Het, Gay, Asexual, Demi, whatever...then, no, it just needs to have the biggest chunk.

[daveliam]

Indeed, Nicolas and Julien.

 

I mean, for God's sake, we have a gay Empress ruling the biggest empire in Thedas!

 

I really loved Nicolas and Julien, btw.  I would love a romance like theirs.  Or even a romance between two NPCs like theirs.  I was 'shipping them way before they were revealed to be a couple in the book.  In the very first description of them sitting off to the side with each other and talking quietly, I was like, "Wouldn't it be awesome if they were a couple?"

[In Exile]

See and I think this is really interesting.  To me, it's precisely because they don't mention their orientation that I think of them as bisexual.  If Merrill said to Lady Hawke, "I'm a lesbian" and then said to Male Hawke, "I'm straight", that's what would make me call them playersexual.  Simply being available to both male and female characters reads more bisexual to me.  But I understand why your mileage may vary.

 

Well, Fenris is in a relationship with Isabella if neither are romanced regardless of Hawke's gender, I think, so him being bisexual is quite a reasonable interpretation versus having a changing sexuality based on the gender of the PC. 

[daveliam]

No, it doesn't mean that they're more than fifty percent. It just means they have the largest percentage. It only needs to be over 50 percent by definition if there are only TWO sexualities.

 

If there are more: Bi, Het, Gay, Asexual, Demi, whatever...then, no, it just needs to have the biggest chunk.

 

True.  Plus, even if everyone were bisexual, it would make sense that about half of the couples would be opposite sex.  Imagine 100 bisexual people (50 men and 50 women).  If they randomly ended up partnerships, you figure that about half of the guys would end up with other guys and the same with the ladies.  So that would be about 25 "straight" couples, 12-13 "gay" couples, and 12-13 "lesbian" couples.  Even in this situation, it would appear like there are more "straight" people.  And, that would be with only bisexuals.  If there were also 50 straight people, it would skew it even more, but the appearance would be predominantly "heterosexual" on the surface.

 

Yes, I know that we haven't seen anywhere near 25 gay/lesbian couples, but I was just trying to use round numbers for an easy point.

[Ianamus]

No, it doesn't mean that they're more than fifty percent. It just means they have the largest percentage. It only needs to be over 50 percent by definition if there are only TWO sexualities.

 

If there are more: Bi, Het, Gay, Asexual, Demi, whatever...then, no, it just needs to have the biggest chunk.

 

I still think heterosexuality is the most common sexuality in Thedas. In the World of Thedas it is called a "quirk of character" to have relationships with the same gender in Orlais, and I don't think that it would be considered a quirk if bisexuality was more common than heterosexuality.

 

Plus we'd see far more male couples. Going by in-game character sexualities it looks like the women in Thedas are more likely to be bisexual or homosexual than the men, and Elves are about four times as likely to be bisexual as anyone else. I doubt any of these are really the case.

[In Exile]

True.  Plus, even if everyone were bisexual, it would make sense that about half of the couples would be opposite sex.  Imagine 100 bisexual people (50 men and 50 women).  If they randomly ended up partnerships, you figure that about half of the guys would end up with other guys and the same with the ladies.  So that would be about 25 "straight" couples, 12-13 "gay" couples, and 12-13 "lesbian" couples.  Even in this situation, it would appear like there are more "straight" people.  And, that would be with only bisexuals.  If there were also 50 straight people, it would skew it even more, but the appearance would be predominantly "heterosexual" on the surface.

 

Yes, I know that we haven't seen anywhere near 25 gay/lesbian couples, but I was just trying to use round numbers for an easy point.

 

Only if you assume that all couples have to be monogamous, and that their sexual preference maps on to their preference for romantic relationships. That's not necessarily true. 

[renfrees]

See and I think this is really interesting.  To me, it's precisely because they don't mention their orientation that I think of them as bisexual.  If Merrill said to Lady Hawke, "I'm a lesbian" and then said to Male Hawke, "I'm straight", that's what would make me call them playersexual.  Simply being available to both male and female characters reads more bisexual to me.  But I understand why your mileage may vary.

It's really not the same. They are the orientation you want them to be in that particular PT or your HC, but they never state, that they like or were with both men and women. Unlike Zevran, Anders or Isabela.

 

Wait, I retract half of my statement. Fenris might be bi, because he hooks up with Isabela if you don't romance any of them, and you're playing male Hawke. Merrill on the other hand, never gives any indication.

 

 

Well, Fenris is in a relationship with Isabella if neither are romanced regardless of Hawke's gender, I think, so him being bisexual is quite a reasonable interpretation versus having a changing sexuality based on the gender of the PC. 

Only if you're playing male. If not - he can be considered straight, because I don't count abuse as actual relation.

 

And yeah, I already edited, but thanks for reminding anyway.

Modifié par renfrees, 29 avril 2014 - 12:59 .

[daveliam]

Only if you assume that all couples have to be monogamous, and that their sexual preference maps on to their preference for romantic relationships. That's not necessarily true. 

 

Absolutely true.  It was a totally rough example that didn't account for much variation away from traditional monogamous relationships.  I was just pointing out how the numbers might skew towards "heterosexual" appearing relationships.

 

It's really not the same. They are the orientation you want them to be in that particular PT or your HC, but they never state, that they like or were with both men and women. Unlike Zevran, Anders or Isabela.

 

Wait, I retract half of my statement. Fenris might be bi, because he hooks up with Isabela if you don't romance any of them, and you're playing male Hawke. Merrill on the other hand, never gives any indication.

 

So then, it's really only Merrill who might be playersexual.  That's also why I think it's unlikely.  There have been 9 LI's and only Merrill might be playersexual?  Why only her?  Isn't it way more likely that they just wrote her to be ambiguous because of her naive, sheltered nature?  I mean, the reality is that Hawke might have been her first.  A bisexual person without any romantic past could easily appear as"straight" or "gay" unless they specifically bring up other attractions.  But Merrill, being the naive romantic gal she is, would probably be more focused on Hawke him/herself.  At least in my opinion.

[Former_Fiend]

Merrill expresses attraction to male qunari, or at the very least finds them visibly appealing. Happens regardless of whether you're playing a male or female Hawke.

[Maria Caliban]

If we're talking about humans, then it is unrealistic, because they're still supposed to be the same species as in the real world. We could as well give them pointy ears and ability to breathe under water and call them humans - no one would buy it.

Right. No one has heard of genres called science fiction and fantasy where things are not the same as they are in the real world. 'It's not realist' only makes sense if the aim is realism.

I mean, you might as well give humans the ability to knock people down by screaming at them or be stabbed, burnt, shot at and poisoned hundreds of times in an hour - no one would buy it.

While I'm at it, you might want to read this. There is actually a number of speculative fiction stories where humans have the ability to live/breathe underwater.

[WildOrchid]

Merrill expresses attraction to male qunari, or at the very least finds them visibly appealing. Happens regardless of whether you're playing a male or female Hawke.

 

Still, this means nothing about someone's sexuality. Finding someone "nice on the eyes" is not sexual attraction.

[Hellion Rex]

Still, this means nothing about someone's sexuality. Finding someone "nice on the eyes" is not sexual attraction.

Indeed. I think Lupita Nyong'o is drop dead gorgeous, but I'm 100% gay, into men only. I happen to be gay, not blind.

[Former_Fiend]

Still, this means nothing about someone's sexuality. Finding someone "nice on the eyes" is not sexual attraction.

 

The tone of her voice implies it, but that's just my interpretation. 

 

I don't know why some people seem opposed to the idea of Merrill finding qunari attractive, though. I've always felt it was a good knock against the playersexual accusation.

[Maria Caliban]

Though I think it's a bit sad that other than Isabela, none of them will exhibit same-sex desire if you're a member of the opposite sex.

Fenris and Isabela will get together. Anders talks about his attraction to women in Awakening. Merrill seems interested in both Carver and the (all male) qunari. I want to say that Bethany talks about wanting to marry and have kid, which is something that might happen with another woman, but heavily suggests a male partner.

Anders talks about his attraction to Karl, but only to a male PC.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't recall Merrill showing any interest in Carver beyond her general desire to hear "dirty" things and having innuendo go over her head, though it was implied that she was feigning that later on so as not to hurt his feelings.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't recall Merrill showing any interest in Carver beyond her general desire to hear "dirty" things and having innuendo go over her head, though it was implied that she was feigning that later on so as not to hurt his feelings.

Wait, didn't it hint at them maybe getting together in MotA?

[Hellion Rex]

Though I think it's a bit sad that other than Isabela, none of them will exhibit same-sex desire if you're a member of the opposite sex.

Fenris and Isabela will get together. Anders talks about his attraction to women in Awakening. Merrill seems interested in both Carver and the (all male) qunari. I want to say that Bethany talks about wanting to marry and have kid, which is something that might happen with another woman, but heavily suggests a male partner.

Anders talks about his attraction to Karl, but only to a male PC.

Damn you, Maria! Snapping up all my likes lol