12496 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Especially when in the end it ends up being a mere 20+ minutes of content out of a 40+ hour game.

Exactly. And even more when most of that content is accessed near the end of said 40+ hours. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Games like Dragon age, witcher, Elder Scrolls etc are entertaining because they are good at imitating real life people while adding not too much magic/alien glamour
Imagine ME1 with our Virmire choice. Less heartbreaking and less entertaining. A player has to choose one or another, and that's what makes it so powerful

Realism is not even on my Top Ten list for why I find RPGs fun. And having to play a gender you don't want to in order to access content you want to access is pretty much the opposite of enjoyable.

You mean the heavily scripted scene where you easily could have rescued both but don't for 'reasons'?

[Chari]

The character is part of the game!!!

I have to think of a better example, apparently.

Isabela and her history with her husband. You NEVER even get this hinted at you unless you romance her. Does this mean that this history is not-canonical unless you romance her? I highly doubt you feel that way. Or even Morrigan and her capacity for love. You could have been down-right terrible to that mage, but her not expressing loving emotion to your Warden would neither make her heterosexual or homosexual - even with the Ritual in the end. Because romances were gender specific in Origins, we meta-game, and we know she's straight, but why would this ever matter to certain Wardens? I feel like it would matter as much to them, as to the average player as if Inquisition adopted a player-sexual companion base ... but it's just an opinion. I'm not trying to change yours but I'm trying to make you understand mine. You're so final.

Do you feel that the companions in DAII were lesser for being player-sexual? That they lacked character depth?

You can learn about it in DAO. Even if you don't sleep with her.
That's the point. It happened regardless of player's choice. It is canon. No amount of headcanons or clicking icons will change that. Finita

Yes, though DA 2 companions lacked a lot generally. One-theme obsessed, stuck with Hawke for reasons unknown. No middle ground - you're either besties or frenemies if you want to complete their quests.
As I recall Gaider or someone else said that Anders not mentioning Carl to fHawke was done so the player can pretend he is straight. Vagueness is all about players pretending their characters are someone they want them to be. But, eh, it is delusional. In DAI they said there will be no more vagueness, and that's good

[Ryzaki]

Realism is not even on my Top Ten list for why I find RPGs fun. And having to play a gender you don't want to in order to access content you want to access is pretty much the opposite of enjoyable.

You mean the heavily scripted scene where you easily could have rescued both but don't for 'reasons'?

 

I also love how the salarians teleport unto the ship.

[Kalyppso]

No person lives in a cultural vacuum. And since romance, reproduction and culture are always connected, set sexual life and tastes influences a person. Even rebels have to rebel against something. If there wasn't slavery, Andraste wouldn't have to free anyone
Not to mention that preferences in choice of sex or even love partner can have heavy consequences

I agree with all of this, but not in the way you'd want me to agree with it. d:

The Dragon Age universe was so accepting of same-sex and heterosexual pairings in Origins that I felt it was a lovely step forward that these boundaries reflected that the culture of their world allowed for anyone of any personality to love any other regardless of background or gender. Coin was the big divider, and I was comfortable with that. It was reminiscent of there being little to no gender boundaries in their professional world. There were more male soldiers, but there were no laws saying a woman could not be a soldier, and so on and so forth. Choosing a partner has heavy consequences, but I feel that there's no harm in allowing the player to successfully influence companions' tastes as they did in DAII.

[Vapaa]

 

You mean the heavily scripted scene where you easily could have rescued both but don't for 'reasons'?

 

>Send Ashley with salarians

>Help the salarians

>Save Kaidan at the bomb

>Go to cargo bay and find the salarians

>WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE ASHLEY WITH YOU, BASTARDS !

 

10/10 Bioware

[Chari]

Realism is not even on my Top Ten list for why I find RPGs fun. And having to play a gender you don't want to in order to access content you want to access is pretty much the opposite of enjoyable.
You mean the heavily scripted scene where you easily could have rescued both but don't for 'reasons'?

It is what RPGs are about. Role playing different roles, not catering to player's every whim. It is a fantasy, not 20th century styled fairy tale
It is called war. People die in war. Not everyone can be saved

[ladyoflate]

No person lives in a cultural vacuum. And since romance, reproduction and culture are always connected, set sexual life and tastes influences a person. Even rebels have to rebel against something. If there wasn't slavery, Andraste wouldn't have to free anyone
Not to mention that preferences in choice of sex or even love partner can have heavy consequences

 

I'm saying that they've said in Thedas it is not an issue. In our world, it is. I give you the reproduction, but reproduction has nothing to with sexuality. Merrill was concerned with reproductive possibilities because in that instance Hawke was a cis human male with presumably viable sperm, not because she was dating a dude. If that dude had been trans or elvhen or confirmed infertile, then it wouldn't have been an issue as with a female Hawke. If female Hawke had been trans and presumably fertile, then the reproduction issue would have been the same.

 

Sex life and tastes can influence a person, but taste and lifestyle encompass so much more than just 'correct gender: check' that in a world where it's stated that it's supposed to not be an issue-- not on a cultural level, where we have people trying to proclaim how much they LOVE they gays and are a cool cishet person no really!, but on a facts of life level of no-big-deal-ness that is reserved for out-of-game info--then it would not have any noticeable bearing on the person's personality.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I also love how the salarians teleport unto the ship.

 

>Send Ashley with salarians

>Help the salarians

>Save Kaidan at the bomb

>Go to cargo bay and find the salarians

>WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE ASHLEY WITH YOU, BASTARDS !

 

10/10 Bioware

Indeed.

 

 

It is what RPGs are about. Role playing different roles, not catering to player's every whim. It is a fantasy, not 20th century styled fairy tale
It is called war. People die in war. Not everyone can be saved

Forcing players to accept certain events taking place when they clearly didn't need to happen is not roleplaying. That's called scripted, which RPGs are pretty much the opposite of. Offering them the chance to save both if you are good enough is. 

[Chari]

I agree with all of this, but not in the way you'd want me to agree with it. d:

The Dragon Age universe was so accepting of same-sex and heterosexual pairings in Origins that I felt it was a lovely step forward that these boundaries reflected that the culture of their world allowed for anyone of any personality to love any other regardless of background or gender. Coin was the big divider, and I was comfortable with that. It was reminiscent of there being little to no gender boundaries in their professional world. There were more male soldiers, but there were no laws saying a woman could not be a soldier, and so on and so forth. Choosing a partner has heavy consequences, but I feel that there's no harm in allowing the player to successfully influence companions' tastes as they did in DAII.

There is no law forbidding gay or bi people. But it has people who have tastes and such, their own tastes and agenda. Not everyone is straight bi or gay. People are different, that's the charm

[ladyoflate]

Forcing players to accept certain events taking place when they clearly didn't need to happen is not roleplaying. That's called scripted, which RPGs are pretty much the opposite of. Offering them the chance to save both if you are good enough is. 

 

There should always be the option to win, even if that option takes everything you have or more skill than you have on that playthrough. The option should exist.

[Kalyppso]

You can learn about it in DAO. Even if you don't sleep with her.
That's the point. It happened regardless of player's choice. It is canon. No amount of headcanons or clicking icons will change that. Finita

Yes, though DA 2 companions lacked a lot generally. One-theme obsessed, stuck with Hawke for reasons unknown. No middle ground - you're either besties or frenemies if you want to complete their quests.
As I recall Gaider or someone else said that Anders not mentioning Carl to fHawke was done so the player can pretend he is straight. Vagueness is all about players pretending their characters are someone they want them to be. But, eh, it is delusional. In DAI they said there will be no more vagueness, and that's good

You barely find out about her husband in Origins. I'm sorry I didn't think of an airtight example for you.

Anders DEFINITELY mentioned Carl to my fHawke ... though I concede it may have been a glitch to which I was unaware and which did not bother myself personally in the slightest. Anders himself bothered me to death (despite me loving the idea of RPing an anarchist at his side in one playthrough), with his conversation wheel being so insistent on you either "hearting" him or being cruel in at least one conversation.

Also, I'm sorry you felt that way. I didn't. I felt the relationships were unusual, but each for their own reason and not for your shared reason of player-sexuality. An example of what I mean by that is the idea of Hawke waiting 3 years for Fenris ... I understand the fanbase believes Varric might be hung up on Bianca for much longer than that - and canonically so! But that for myself felt unrealistic. I almost didn't take him back in the next romance scene - he hurt my Hawke, and chances are not always given so freely.

[Chari]

Indeed.


Forcing players to accept certain events taking place when they clearly didn't need to happen is not roleplaying. That's called scripted, which RPGs are pretty much the opposite of. Offering them the chance to save both if you are good enough is.

All games are scripted. RPGs or not. Games are not about wish fulfilment. Hard choices make game more interesting and more realistic, hitting player's feelings hard, but in an artistic manner

[Ryzaki]

I'm saying that they've said in Thedas it is not an issue. In our world, it is. I give you the reproduction, but reproduction has nothing to with sexuality. Merrill was concerned with reproductive possibilities because in that instance Hawke was a cis human male with presumably viable sperm, not because she was dating a dude. If that dude had been trans or elvhen or confirmed infertile, then it wouldn't have been an issue as with a female Hawke. If female Hawke had been trans and presumably fertile, then the reproduction issue would have been the same.

 

Sex life and tastes can influence a person, but taste and lifestyle encompass so much more than just 'correct gender: check' that in a world where it's stated that it's supposed to not be an issue-- not on a cultural level, where we have people trying to proclaim how much they LOVE they gays and are a cool cishet person no really!, but on a facts of life level of no-big-deal-ness that is reserved for out-of-game info--then it would not have any noticeable bearing on the person's personality.

 

I always thought Merrill was more concnered about kids because elf+human = human and as a dalish you'd think for a very young age she'd gotten the "we elves must stick together." speech and having a human child isn't really helping the dalish in any way whatsoever.

 

Anyway in DA world people would have arranged marriages most of the time so being stuck in a sexy relationship doesn't require a specific sexuality. You can be straight and still forced to marry a o/s person you want nothing to do with.

[RynJ]

There should always be the option to win, even if that option takes everything you have or more skill than you have on that playthrough. The option should exist.

 

I agree. Not having this was arguably one of the largest flaws of Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3. The biggest one for Mass Effect 3, in my opinion.

[Kalyppso]

There is no law forbidding gay or bi people. But it has people who have tastes and such, their own tastes and agenda. Not everyone is straight bi or gay. People are different, that's the charm

Upon reading the other comments I see your dedication to realism, which doesn't affect my immersion to the same degree as your own. I agree it is a charm of life that people are different, and that it is the charm of the characters in any universe that they have differences, but I don't see how Bioware allowing each player the chance to romance these characters deters from their complexity; however, now being informed that you feel that this does based on your interpretation of the DAII characters, I understand that we just won't come to an understanding.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

All games are scripted. RPGs or not. Games are not about wish fulfilment. Hard choices make game more interesting and more realistic, hitting player's feelings hard, but in an artistic manner

That's exactly one of the things games are for. Where else can someone live out their fantasies of being a super soldier, or a knight, or have magic,etc?

 

Hard choices, yes. Stupid choices, no. Your example of Virmire is an example of the latter as pointed out by Vapaa. 

[Chari]

You barely find out about her husband in Origins. I'm sorry I didn't think of an airtight example for you.

Anders DEFINITELY mentioned Carl to my fHawke ... though I concede it may have been a glitch to which I was unaware and which did not bother myself personally in the slightest. Anders himself bothered me to death (despite me loving the idea of RPing an anarchist at his side in one playthrough), with his conversation wheel being so insistent on you either "hearting" him or being cruel in at least one conversation.

Also, I'm sorry you felt that way. I didn't. I felt the relationships were unusual, but each for their own reason and not for your shared reason of player-sexuality. An example of what I mean by that is the idea of Hawke waiting 3 years for Fenris ... I understand the fanbase believes Varric might be hung up on Bianca for much longer than that - and canonically so! But that for myself felt unrealistic. I almost didn't take him back in the next romance scene - he hurt my Hawke, and chances are not always given so freely.

You find out enough.

A glitch, likely

I miss DAO romances... Without obvious heart icons and terrible flirting. Starting romance with Lelianna accidentally, or having different consequences with Alistair depending on gender, race and even class... So complex

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I miss DAO romances... Without obvious heart icons and terrible flirting. Starting romance with Lelianna accidentally, or having different consequences with Alistair depending on gender, race and even class... So complex

You mean the swapping out of a few lines, which you earlier said was a fault of DA2? 

[Ryzaki]

I agree. Not having this was arguably one of the largest flaws of Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3. The biggest one for Mass Effect 3, in my opinion.

 

Agreed if I wanted to have sucky choices all around I could've dealt with that crapola in my day to day. I don't need a game to try to be deep and angsty and hit me in the feels all the time. Sometimes yes I want to have a damn good power fantasy. I want to be a kick ass female in full plate with her huge sword killing anyone who looks at her funny. Trying to be grimdark is tiring me out. Sometimes I want to be that hero that's larger than life kicking ass and taking names without need for angst and woe is me polluting the scenery. **** let me play stereotypical "boring" good guy without the need to make him miserable or have everything go to **** because I need to see once again how much humanity sucks.

[Chari]

That's exactly one of the things games are for. Where else can someone live out their fantasies of being a super soldier, or a knight, or have magic,etc?

Hard choices, yes. Stupid choices, no. Your example of Virmire is an example of the latter as pointed out by Vapaa.

Nope. To some extent - yes, but not without boundaries. Otherwise most games would end at the beginning with "And so they lived ever happily after"

Still a pretty emotional moment. I don't even like Ashley and Kaidan, but so much drama felt amazing. Terrible and amazing

[Chari]

You mean the swapping out of a few lines, which you earlier said was a fault of DA2?

I mean being or not being able to marry him, staying as a lover or breaking up but magically reuniting in some cases after DAA

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I mean being or not being able to marry him, staying as a lover or breaking up but magically reuniting in some cases after DAA

And none of that requires him liking a certain gender. 

[Kalyppso]

I miss DAO romances... Without obvious heart icons and terrible flirting. Starting romance with Lelianna accidentally, or having different consequences with Alistair depending on gender, race and even class... So complex

I would most certainly classify Alistair's flirting as terrible. Have you ever licked a lamppost?

...
OMG. I just realized "Have you ever licked a lamppost" and "Do you want to build a snowman" have the same number a syllables ... I'll have to work on that later. xD

Also, the way that's phrased I would almost take your "So complex" comment as sarcasm if I didn't know exactly what you were talking about. I tried playing the culturally ignorant elf with Zevran and got locked out of his romance for calling his mother a ****** ... xD Alistair was still up for it. That felt a little immersion breaking - that he wouldn't be bitter for playing second fiddle. I liked that banter between Fenris, Anders - and even Isabela if you played your cards right.

I wonder if that'll be reflected in DAI? I kind of even hope not, because I would rather the word count be used towards different dialogue that explores the companions feelings on the current situations, etc.

[Ryzaki]

And none of that requires him liking a certain gender. 

 

Yep. MWarden could've just been stuck with the lover on the side script like everyone but F!Cousland. Have an extra line in the babies dialogue "We obviously can't have children even without the taint..." and there you go.