12496 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I don't understand how that's 'Carth syndrome' as his crush was unrequited.

Not for the lack of trying on the part of some of the Cullenites

[Ryzaki]

Yeah it's not Carth Syndrome unless you get the dead spouse comparisons.

 

I mean that's just such a mood killer.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Mmm, I can't wait to know all LIs, their sexualities and preferences being turned down and embraced, meeting the first gay LI in DA ever, feeling heartbroken because a companion I liked is not a LI and feeling surprised cause the one I didn't is actually very likeable
Dang, fall, why is it so far away?

Are you a masochist? These things tend to not be looked forward to in real life. 

[jncicesp]

Your whole comment confused me, but if I just stick with the one bullet - I have to bring up Zevran in this thread again - by choosing particular dialogue options, he can propose to you - implied marriage, and he is attracted to more than one gender.


I just realized you said, more than "their" gender and not more than "one" gender ... and realize my comment might be out of place ... so instead I'll say:

What?

Right. Sorry I'm confusing.

 

What to what though?

I meant gender of their spouse. ?

 

I was just thinking of ways a Romance can change if a character was only interested in one gender and not multiple.

[SurelyForth]

Are you a masochist? These things tend to not be looked forward to in real life. 

 

Right? Being a Dragon Age protag is already a free fall into despair as it is-- the companions and romances are supposed to help add some levity and light along the way. I can get rejected and have my heart broken in real life. 

[Mes]

 

1. For someone to have turned another down. It apparently can't be just cause they don't like them it has to be because of genderrr.

 

 

Yeah ya know... Makes me think of this whenever someone brings up "sexuality", "realism", and "Dragon Age" in the same sentence.

 

How on earth is it realistic to, for instance, have all bi and straight female companions be "available" to your bi/straight male Inquisitor. Certainly not how real life works. Though I am reminded of a few guys I've known who pretty much do think life works that way. The kind that can't fathom why someone might not want to date them. The kind that do not take rejection well. Or take it at all. And then creepy situations ensue.

 

Yeah. 

[Chari]

Are you a masochist? These things tend to not be looked forward to in real life.

Because unlike real life it is not me who gets rejected but my character. And even if I rp as myself, I am romantic. Loving someone without any returning feelings... Worshipping them, caring even if they don't...
Drama, story, tragedy
So inspirational

[Isaidlunch]

I might actually agree with you Chari if being rejected didn't just revert to the friendship path in previous Bioware games. I would welcome set sexualities if it was done properly and gave the opportunity for meaningful unrequited loves, but I seriously doubt we'll get anything more than what we got with Aveline in DA2.

[Chari]

I might actually agree with you Chari if being rejected didn't just revert to the friendship path in previous Bioware games. I would welcome set sexualities if it was done properly and gave the opportunity for meaningful unrequited loves, but I seriously doubt we'll get anything more than what we got with Aveline in DA2.

Aveline is still better than sleeping with Fenris, then saying no and after that talking as if nothing has ever happened
I like how it was handled in Alistair case. We could actually discus it even after officialy breaking up and in one of DAA epilogues we could even leave everything and reunite

[jncicesp]

Yeah ya know... Makes me think of this whenever someone brings up "sexuality", "realism", and "Dragon Age" in the same sentence.

 

How on earth is it realistic to, for instance, have all bi and straight female companions be "available" to your bi/straight male Inquisitor. Certainly not how real life works. Though I am reminded of a few guys I've known who pretty much do think life works that way. The kind that can't fathom why someone might not want to date them. The kind that do not take rejection well. Or take it at all. And then creepy situations ensue.

 

Yeah. 

Mmmmmmmmhm I kinda meant it being another character being turned down as part of the Romance-characters story but all too.

 

lol It's not even just companions theres other characters who are interested 'just cause' and now actual npc romances.

[SurelyForth]

Aveline is still better than sleeping with Fenris, then saying no and after that talking as if nothing has ever happened
I like how it was handled in Alistair case. We could actually discus it even after officialy breaking up and in one of DAA epilogues we could even leave everything and reunite

 

Alistair's romance is another one of those that exemplifies my issues with making gender a Thing in a romance and gating romances/romance content because of decisions made in the CC. 

 

1. During the course of the relationship, you could discuss fertility issues with him. It's one of the main reasons why he breaks up with the Warden, and it's a point of concern when you play a Cousland who chooses to rule with him. As a woman who can't have children, the entire last section of the game has been a pretty painful reminder of both expectations and my personal "failure" to live up to them. Even if I wasn't playing myself, I still had to consider it, especially during the DR when another woman's fertility turned out to be a literal lifesaver. Because of this, and because of the random misogyny that gets tossed at female Wardens and Shepard despite their status and reputations, I get extremely wary of anything that is heralded as being gender specific in these games, because gender specificity hasn't been handled that gracefully in the past.

 

2. It is super *****y that one origin can marry him, while others can't. That's a bias that people deal with in real life, and to be smacked upside the head with it in a video game because you thought it would be fun to play an elf, or a dwarf, or a mage? Not awesome (especially considering that several POC were shafted by the Couslands being super white). And even though there are alternatives, the fact that you have to "settle" for something lesser (and although GW Alistair is a great idea, he's never going to have the cache of King Alistair in the game or books) because 80 hours earlier you chose the "wrong" race or class isn't right. 

[Chari]

Alistair's romance is another one of those that exemplifies my issues with making gender a Thing in a romance and gating romances/romance content because of decisions made in the CC.

1. During the course of the relationship, you could discuss fertility issues with him. It's one of the main reasons why he breaks up with the Warden, and it's a point of concern when you play a Cousland who chooses to rule with him. As a woman who can't have children, the entire last section of the game has been a pretty painful reminder of both expectations and my personal "failure" to live up to them. Even if I wasn't playing myself, I still had to consider it, especially during the DR when another woman's fertility turned out to be a literal lifesaver. Because of this, and because of the random misogyny that gets tossed at female Wardens and Shepard despite their status and reputations, I get extremely wary of anything that is heralded as being gender specific in these games, because gender specificity hasn't been handled that gracefully in the past.

2. It is super *****y that one origin can marry him, while others can't. That's a bias that people deal with in real life, and to be smacked upside the head with it in a video game because you thought it would be fun to play an elf, or a dwarf, or a mage (especially considering the that several POC were shafted by the Couslands being super white)? Not awesome. And even though there are alternatives, the fact that you have to "settle" for something lesser (and although GW Alistair is a great idea, he's never going to have the cache of King Alistair in the game or books) because 80 hours earlier you chose the "wrong" race or class isn't right.

Bullshit. This is not sexist at all, Bioware didn't plan on putting down female Shepard or Warden or anything.
Alistair is a king, a king has to produce a heir whether he wants it or not. Same with the queen. Two wardens can not produce a baby.
Also Fereldan does not exist in 21th century. There is racism, there is sexism, slavery etc. It is not my little pony and friendship isn't magic. Social status, origins and wealth are.
Human kings and queens can not marry elves, dwarves or mages. Nobility wouldnt allow, it goes against cultural traditions. It may be unfair but as Sten said - life isn't fair. Even in fantasy worlds.
Alistair can't change that system.
It all makes the romance with him bitterly-sweet, realistic and believable. And that's why it is so great

[ladyoflate]

2. It is super *****y that one origin can marry him, while others can't. That's a bias that people deal with in real life, and to be smacked upside the head with it in a video game because you thought it would be fun to play an elf, or a dwarf, or a mage? Not awesome (especially considering that several POC were shafted by the Couslands being super white). And even though there are alternatives, the fact that you have to "settle" for something lesser (and although GW Alistair is a great idea, he's never going to have the cache of King Alistair in the game or books) because 80 hours earlier you chose the "wrong" race or class isn't right. 

 

(only commenting on this bit because the other bit i agree 100%)

 

I kind of liked that aspect, because it was consistent with the lore. However, as I've said before, there should always be an option to win, even if it's difficult to get.

 

I think a lot of problems with that setup could have been fixed by a: getting an explicit marriage if you agree to it for a GW Alistair and b: making it possible for a non-Cousland to become queen, but only in specific circumstances: Anora and Cousland marriage require the same rough amount of support during the landsmeet, Aeducan requires one more person's worth of support during the landsmeet (because noble is yay for nobles, but dwarf is boo for humans), and full support for all the other origins. Maybe you get to have a rousing speech about fighting like the Rebel Queen or something, idk. That way it's still lore-consistent, but you at least get the option and it means you're enacting visible, immediate change in your playthrough.

 

And you are the leader of the people that are going to end the war and you saved Eamon, so either you die and it's not an issue any more, or you've defeated the Blight and probably that should make certain people shut their yaps.

 

eta: i hate that sunglasses smiley SO MUCH

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Bullshit. This is not sexist at all, Bioware didn't plan on putting down female Shepard or Warden or anything.
Alistair is a king, a king has to produce a heir whether he wants it or not. Same with the queen. Two wardens can not produce a baby.
Also Fereldan does not exist in 21th century. There is racism, there is sexism, slavery etc. It is not my little pony and friendship isn't magic. Social status, origins and wealth are.
Human kings and queens can not marry elves, dwarves or mages. Nobility wouldnt allow, it goes against cultural traditions. It may be unfair but as Sten said - life isn't fair. Even in fantasy worlds.
Alistair can't change that system.
It all makes the romance with him bitterly-sweet, realistic and believable. And that's why it is so great

I don't know about sexist, but I don't think the scenario exactly makes sense. Alistair has to produce an heir.. so, let's look at the choices. He can hook up with another noble warden, who he has almost no chance of reproducing with. He can hook up with his brother's widow, who is suspected to be barren. He can remain single, otherwise. In no scenario, except maybe knocking up Morrigan through the DR and having her run off with the fruits of his efforts, does he ever produce an heir. Isn't that kind of a problem to the intentions of realistically portraying this need?

[SurelyForth]

Bullshit. This is not sexist at all, Bioware didn't plan on putting down female Shepard or Warden or anything.
Alistair is a king, a king has to produce a heir whether he wants it or not. Same with the queen. Two wardens can not produce a baby.
Also Fereldan does not exist in 21th century. There is racism, there is sexism, slavery etc. It is not my little pony and friendship isn't magic. Social status, origins and wealth are.
Human kings and queens can not marry elves, dwarves or mages. Nobility wouldnt allow, it goes against cultural traditions. It may be unfair but as Sten said - life isn't fair. Even in fantasy worlds.
Alistair can't change that system.
It all makes the romance with him bitterly-sweet, realistic and believable. And that's why it is so great

 

Ferelden doesn't exist anywhere. The devs had opportunities to change the fact that female Wardens are put in danger of being sexually assaulted and that female Wardens have their authority questioned (and that FemShep is called a stripper). Even if they're not putting down the female characters, they are still going out of their way to put a gendered spin on the female protag experience, and in doing so they are reinforcing potentially painful real life issues faced by real life women when they don't have to! Or need to! 

 

 

I don't know about sexist, but I don't think the scenario exactly makes sense. Alistair has to produce an heir.. so, let's look at the choices. He can hook up with another noble warden, who he has almost no chance of reproducing with. He can hook up with his brother's widow, who is suspected to be barren. He can remain single, otherwise. In no scenario, except maybe knocking up Morrigan through the DR and having her run off with the fruits of his efforts, does he ever produce an heir. Isn't that kind of a problem to the intentions of realistically portraying this need?

 

 

Also, Anora refuses to marry if she is made queen alone, yet she is not deposed. 

[Chari]

I don't know about sexist, but I don't think the scenario exactly makes sense. Alistair has to produce an heir.. so, let's look at the choices. He can hook up with another noble warden, who he has almost no chance of reproducing with. He can hook up with his brother's widow, who is suspected to be barren. He can remain single, otherwise. In no scenario, except maybe knocking up Morrigan through the DR and having her run off with the fruits of his efforts, does he ever produce an heir. Isn't that kind of a problem to the intentions of realistically portraying this need?

The thing is neither PC or Alistair knows two wardens can't produce a baby.
Same with Anora - there he gets married for political reasons.
As a single he can eventually get married.
Morrigan won't give away her kid, plus he hates her and the child is kind of a god...
Anyway, it seems to me that Therins bloodline stops at Alistair and the only way to save it is to do DR. But again, characters do now know all of this. Only players and creators do.

[Chari]

Ferelden doesn't exist anywhere. The devs had opportunities to change the fact that female Wardens are put in danger of being sexually assaulted and that female Wardens have their authority questioned (and that FemShep is called a stripper). Even if they're not putting down the female characters, they are still going out of their way to put a gendered spin on the female protag experience, and in doing so they are reinforcing potentially painful real life issues faced by real life women when they don't have to! Or need to!

They don't do it because they enjoy it. They do it because that's kind of problems women in Thedas and ME have to work with. Thedas has slavery, blood magic, no surprise it has sexism or even molesters.
Thedas may be a fantasy world, but people in it are somwtimes still flawed, cruel and merciless

[ladyoflate]

They don't do it because they enjoy it. They do it because that's kind of problems women in Thedas and ME have to work with. Thedas has slavery, blood magic, no surprise it has sexism or even molesters.
Thedas may be a fantasy world, but people in it are somwtimes still flawed, cruel and merciless

 

Thedas is fictional! The point is, they chose to write it that way. There was not a person holding a gun to their head going 'Yesssss make the female PC experience more discrimination yessss make all the visible family members in the Origins as pale as possible yessssssss.' Dragon Age is not a series of documentaries, everything that has been put into these games has been an extremely deliberate and considered choice. They could have chosen differently, and they should have. You can have complex social issues without forcing your players to confront all the stupid crap they have to deal with the rest of their life.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The thing is neither PC or Alistair knows two wardens can't produce a baby.
Same with Anora - there he gets married for political reasons.
As a single he can eventually get married.
Morrigan won't give away her kid, plus he hates her and the child is kind of a god...
Anyway, it seems to me that Therins bloodline stops at Alistair and the only way to save it is to do DR. But again, characters do now know all of this. Only players and creators do.

I doubt no one knows that wardens have fertility issues. They've been converting thousands of people over hundreds of years. It doesn't make statistical sense that they wouldn't have noticed. With Alistair being a newer recruit, I suppose he possibly didn't know at the time. 

 

As for the Theirin line, I wouldn't count them out yet. We don't even know that Alistair was Maric's only bastard. It's possible he isn't really Fiona's son, like the theories go. Alistair could also likely still have a child, though, just less likely with another warden. Cailan could have also had a bastard that we didn't know about. With their blood being super special to the plot, I actually doubt they'll write it out that easily.   

[In Exile]

Thedas is fictional! The point is, they chose to write it that way. There was not a person holding a gun to their head going 'Yesssss make the female PC experience more discrimination yessss make all the visible family members in the Origins as pale as possible yessssssss.' Dragon Age is not a series of documentaries, everything that has been put into these games has been an extremely deliberate and considered choice. They could have chosen differently, and they should have. You can have complex social issues without forcing your players to confront all the stupid crap they have to deal with the rest of their life.

It's worse than that because the stated goal of the developers is to be forward-thinking in Thedas: sexism isn't supposed to be an issue. Where it is an issue that's more of a reflection on our society and the implicit (we hope) beliefs held by writers and designers that are, unfortunately, sexist in nature. A good example is the Warden's like (if female) about how she's braver than all of the other (male) Warden recruits (basically) despite being a woman. 

 

The race issue is more difficult, because fantasy has a lot of inherently racist notions in it.

[SurelyForth]

Thedas is fictional! The point is, they chose to write it that way. There was not a person holding a gun to their head going 'Yesssss make the female PC experience more discrimination yessss make all the visible family members in the Origins as pale as possible yessssssss.' Dragon Age is not a series of documentaries, everything that has been put into these games has been an extremely deliberate and considered choice. They could have chosen differently, and they should have. You can have complex social issues without forcing your players to confront all the stupid crap they have to deal with the rest of their life.

 

Exactly. When they decided to include these elements, they are implying that certain things are intrinsic to the experience of women (no matter where I go in this galaxy and the fantasy spaces between, there will be dudes in plaid who think I should just keep myself to the kitchen) and of people in power (they are mostly very, very white). 

 

And this relates very specifically to romance in the games, and to my concerns with DAI, because the one time I feel like they went out of their way to address gender (and race) in a romance, it played to some of these issues in genuinely problematic ways. 

[ladyoflate]

Exactly. When they decided to include these elements, they are implying that certain things are intrinsic to the experience of women (no matter where I go in this galaxy and the fantasy spaces between, there will be dudes in plaid who think I should just keep myself to the kitchen) and of people in power (they are mostly very, very white). 

 

And this relates very specifically to romance in the games, and to my concerns with DAI, because the one time I feel like they went out of their way to address gender (and race) in a romance, it played to some of these issues in genuinely problematic ways. 

 

For the non-romance: there should have been an Adaia for every origin that allows the PC to take after whichever parent they want, and I should not have had to play a DLC to meet the one non-white Tabris and know she wasn't white. And she shouldn't have been blink-and-you-miss-it. Since the whole making-your-family-look-like you thing likely wasn't possible yet.

 

And yes. I know they could do better, with the quality of writing on the 'typical' stuff, if they just stopped starting at that extremely specific typical and moving on from there, you know?

[Chari]

Thedas is fictional! The point is, they chose to write it that way. There was not a person holding a gun to their head going 'Yesssss make the female PC experience more discrimination yessss make all the visible family members in the Origins as pale as possible yessssssss.' Dragon Age is not a series of documentaries, everything that has been put into these games has been an extremely deliberate and considered choice. They could have chosen differently, and they should have. You can have complex social issues without forcing your players to confront all the stupid crap they have to deal with the rest of their life.

Thedas is not a perfect world. There is a lot of injustice going on. Compared to how women are treated even nowadays, same with different nationalities, Thedas is even more fair. Women can go to war, become rulers, colour of skin doesn't matter.
Bioware has already made all these factors very subtle and very light compared to **** which happens in RL, or let's say games of thrones
DA is rated 18+ dark fantasy for a reason. If you need an escapism world... You picked a wrong genre

[ladyoflate]

Thedas is not a perfect world. There is a lot of injustice going on. Compared to how women are treated even nowadays, same with different nationalities, Thedas is even more fair. Women can go to war, become rulers, colour of skin doesn't matter.
Bioware has already made all these factors very subtle and very light compared to **** which happens in RL, or let's say games of thrones
DA is rated 18+ dark fantasy for a reason. If you need an escapism world... You picked a wrong genre

 

Nah, we're complaining 'cause it's pretty much the same as the rest of the time. I would barely be bothered if white dude PCs had to deal with same level of gross (I still wouldn't like it, but I'd be more likely to put up with it), so it's not the wrong genre it's that I want my swords with a dash of horror to be on the same level as everyone else's swords with a dash of horror.

[Chari]

Nah, we're complaining 'cause it's pretty much the same as the rest of the time. I would barely be bothered if white dude PCs had to deal with same level of gross (I still wouldn't like it, but I'd be more likely to put up with it), so it's not the wrong genre it's that I want my swords with a dash of horror to be on the same level as everyone else's swords with a dash of horror.

Thedas used to be pretty sexist in past. Sure it took less time to become more neutral... Just one dead martyr, one dwarfess who cut out her own tongue and one woman who got burned... Anyway, just because Bioware writes bad guys it doesn't mean they share their opinions