12496 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

I did not, anywhere, say I didn't like either character. I pointed out something in particular I didn't like about Wynne and indicated that either or both characters could be found annoying. I think certain traits were made to be annoying, but that doesn't stop one from liking any particular character (in any franchise / story / whatever).

I don't fond them annoying. Oghren's situation is tragic. Wynne had the best intentions and good advice for a young couple

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And here I am, alone in this forum, adoring both Wynne and Oghren in all the games despite their little flaws that only add to their charm...

I wouldn't say I adored them, but I definitely didn't hate them. 

[Shaen Mac Tir]

And here I am, alone in this forum, adoring both Wynne and Oghren in all the games despite their little flaws that only add to their charm... 

 

You're not alone. I actually liked Oghren, and he was one of my Warden's best friends. It's strange though, because I am one of the few who didn't actually like Alistair. And Oghren's goodbye before the Archdemon fight at the gates, was the one who nearly made me cry.

Though I agree that Awakening Oghren seemed a lot more shallow.

As for Wynne, I liked her actions in the end of Asunder, but her personality in DAO and DAA made me angry. She was all acting wise and old and good, and she left after throwing quite nasty words at my face after I became a Reaver. And still, even if she expressed her hatred to me, in DAA yet she was there, being all rude and arrogant to me and still asking for my help.

[In Exile]

While agree to Oghren having questionable beliefs - I wouldn't have said he was particularly homophobic. He was definitely uncomfortable / confused at the idea of Zevran flirting with him, but he wasn't overtly objectionable when the Warden was in a same sex relationship.
 

There's dialogue where you can joke that Oghren is trying to tell you he loves you (when he's stumbling about to tell you he thinks you're good friends), and my recollection (which is very vague at this point) is that he's pretty outraged at the idea if your PC is a man. 

 

That's understandable, completely so. I'm not up in arms about people disliking him, as much as I'm just into his character arc, which gets overlooked because it seems broken, when it's actually really complicated, considering what a seemingly one-note character he is. 

 

And I could see some producers/execs wanting to make Oghren a fan favorite, but from what Gaider has said about his inclusion in Awakening being "forced", I don't think that is what the writers had in mind at all. Despite acting like a clown most of the time, his story is actually kind of dark. Aside from also being a male dwarf, Varric feels completely different in every conceivable way from Oghren. I mean, compare how you can stumble over Oghren being openly mocked by guards for wanting to go find Branka versus Varric swooping in to save Hawke's coinpurse and offer her a way out of debt. One is framed as an irredeemable laughingstock, while the other gets to play the charming rogue, and a hero's indispensable right hand. 

 

I appreciate - on an intellectual level - the insight that your posts add into his character. I never would have been able to see it that way, because I have absolutely no personal experience with the circumstance. Nothing in my life comes close. 

 

Regarding the second point, I think the difference is that Varric is really likeable. He's funny, but not in a gross or offensive way. He's funny in a clever way. He's charming. He's dedicated to helping his friends - half his banters with Merrill and Anders go to that. He's in control of his life, and he's always there to add levity. That's just not who Oghren is as a person. Even if his character is, in the literary sense, great, that's not what it takes to make someone a fan favourite. 

[Chari]

You're not alone. I actually liked Oghren, and he was one of my Warden's best friends. It's strange though, because I am one of the few who didn't actually like Alistair. And Oghren's goodbye before the Archdemon fight at the gates, was the one who nearly made me cry.
Though I agree that Awakening Oghren seemed a lot more shallow.
As for Wynne, I liked her actions in the end of Asunder, but her personality in DAO and DAA made me angry. She was all acting wise and old and good, and she left after throwing quite nasty words at my face after I became a Reaver. And still, even if she expressed her hatred to me, in DAA yet she was there, being all rude and arrogant to me and still asking for my help.

Wynne had pretty good reasons to be angry at warden for destroying Andraste's ashes. It was a terrible act of inhumanity and disrespect

[Shaen Mac Tir]

Wynne had pretty good reasons to be angry at warden for destroying Andraste's ashes. It was a terrible act of inhumanity and disrespect 

 

Well my Warden didn't believe in the Maker, and I hated characters shoving it to my face that I MUST believe, or they will hate me.

That's why my favourite characters in DAO were Morrigan, Zevran, Sten and Oghren. I didn't like Alistair, Wynne and Leliana that much and didn't bring them with me. But if Leliana did nothing after I destroyed the ashes, Wynne was quite nasty about it.

None of them were taken to the mountain, btw.

[HiroVoid]

Well my Warden didn't believe in the Maker, and I hated characters shoving it to my face that I MUST believe, or they will hate me.

That's why my favourite characters in DAO were Morrigan, Zevran, Sten and Oghren. I didn't like Alistair, Wynne and Leliana that much and didn't bring them with me. But if Leliana did nothing after I destroyed the ashes, Wynne was quite nasty about it.

None of them were taken to the mountain, btw.

There's a difference in believing and basically finding the actual ashes of the messiah of the person's religion and basically taking a giant crap in its cup.  That's a horrible act of disrespect to that entire people and pretty disrespectful to do for just about any other person who died.

[Sir Froggie]

Also the guy that told you to do it in the first place is clearly crazy, even Morrigan warns you against helping him.

[In Exile]

Also the guy that told you to do it in the first place is clearly crazy, even Morrigan warns you against helping him.

 

Basically why none of my characters ever went along with him. To me, the atheist choice was about not stripping to your undies when you get asked nicely to strip by the fade ghost. 

[Chari]

There's a difference in believing and basically finding the actual ashes of the messiah of the person's religion and basically taking a giant crap in its cup. That's a horrible act of disrespect to that entire people and pretty disrespectful to do for just about any other person who died.

This.

[Sir Froggie]

Basically why none of my characters ever went along with him. To me, the atheist choice was about not stripping to your undies when you get asked nicely to strip by the fade ghost.

Bah, let the pervy ghosts stare! They will shrivel up in shame at the sight of my Aeducan "glory"!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There's a difference in believing and basically finding the actual ashes of the messiah of the person's religion and basically taking a giant crap in its cup.  That's a horrible act of disrespect to that entire people and pretty disrespectful to do for just about any other person who died.

Exactly. I could not agree with a certain religion, government, etc, but I'm not going to desecrate the remains of an important figure to said organization.

[Ricochetmatt]

Well my Warden didn't believe in the Maker, and I hated characters shoving it to my face that I MUST believe, or they will hate me.

That's why my favourite characters in DAO were Morrigan, Zevran, Sten and Oghren. I didn't like Alistair, Wynne and Leliana that much and didn't bring them with me. But if Leliana did nothing after I destroyed the ashes, Wynne was quite nasty about it.

None of them were taken to the mountain, btw.

 

Wait... What? 

I may not follow or like Christianity but I certainly wouldn't destroy a sacred relic of theirs. That's a bit twisted. 

[Ryzaki]

Exactly. I could not agree with a certain religion, government, etc, but I'm not going to desecrate the remains of an important figure to said organization.

 

That and the ashes were useful. If anything my PC would've stolen the whole jar XD

[Deviija]

Wynne is in my top five favorite characters.  I love her for what she is.  Whether I liked her commentary and advice is irrelevant, because I found her to offer something very distinct and interesting to the game in terms of viewpoint, opinions, personality, and beliefs.  Also, she is one of the only people in the entirety of Origins that actually asks your character what they think/feel about what's happening, the future of your romantic relationship, how you're doing under duty/burdens, and generally questions you for a chance to roleplay out your character's thoughts on a handful of things.  That's something I enjoy.  Most conversations with NPCs and even most companions revolves around your character prompting *them* with questions, or requests for aid, then commenting/responding to what they said.  They rarely ask you what you are feeling/thinking.  Wynne did that in my eyes.  I actually felt like it was a genuine conversation and back an forth, regardless of whether or not they say eye to eye.  

 

And, if that is how Cullen is doing to come to the war table and debate his points and strategies, my Inquisitor(s) will never get anything done.  

[Shaen Mac Tir]

I may not follow or like Christianity but I certainly wouldn't destroy a sacred relic of theirs. That's a bit twisted. 

 

It's interesting in how people are offended by destroying the Ashes of Andraste and find this a terrible act, and also justify stealing the Book from the Arishok and killing him afterwards jsut because his duty was to return the sacred artifact of his race to his people. Those are also the people who justify Isabela stealing the Tome of Coslune like it was no big deal, and her wanting to return the Book to Castillion so he could sell it.

Destroying the Ashes or selling the Tome are actually quite similar acts of disrespecting someone's belief.

My concern is however not in the way Wynne acted, but in her hypocrisy. She was trying so hard to seem wise and forgiving and yet, there she was, acting like a fanatic and spitting words at me after all the good deeds I did, after all the stuff I made for her and the Circle, and all other people - all of it was suddenly meaningless to her just because I destroyed the ashes of a burnt woman. She could be a little more grateful, but meh... I guess that's just like the character is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's interesting in how people are offended by destroying the Ashes of Andraste and find this a terrible act, and also justify stealing the Book from the Arishok and killing him afterwards jsut because his duty was to return the sacred artifact of his race to his people. Those are also the people who justify Isabela stealing the Tome of Coslune like it was no big deal, and her wanting to return the Book to Castillion so he could sell it.

Destroying the Ashes or selling the Tome are actually quite similar acts of disrespecting someone's belief.

I never justify Isabela stealing the Tome. I always have the Qunari take it back to Par Vollen. 

[HiroVoid]

Plenty of people have said its terrible of Isabela to have stolen the tome and blamed her for her part in the Qunari attack in Kirkwall.  Plenty of people have also generally been much more receptive of the Arishock as an antagonist as well because he's much more respectable and understandable than 'Going crazy by lyrium idol' Meredith and 'I'm gonna turn into a harverster now' Orsino.

[Chari]

It's interesting in how people are offended by destroying the Ashes of Andraste and find this a terrible act, and also justify stealing the Book from the Arishok and killing him afterwards jsut because his duty was to return the sacred artifact of his race to his people. Those are also the people who justify Isabela stealing the Tome of Coslune like it was no big deal, and her wanting to return the Book to Castillion so he could sell it.
Destroying the Ashes or selling the Tome are actually quite similar acts of disrespecting someone's belief.

They are. That's why I don't allow either in my playthroughs

[Chari]

It's interesting in how people are offended by destroying the Ashes of Andraste and find this a terrible act, and also justify stealing the Book from the Arishok and killing him afterwards jsut because his duty was to return the sacred artifact of his race to his people. Those are also the people who justify Isabela stealing the Tome of Coslune like it was no big deal, and her wanting to return the Book to Castillion so he could sell it.
Destroying the Ashes or selling the Tome are actually quite similar acts of disrespecting someone's belief.
My concern is however not in the way Wynne acted, but in her hypocrisy. She was trying so hard to seem wise and forgiving and yet, there she was, acting like a fanatic and spitting words at me after all the good deeds I did, after all the stuff I made for her and the Circle, and all other people - all of it was suddenly meaningless to her just because I destroyed the ashes of a burnt woman. She could be a little more grateful, but meh... I guess that's just like the character is.

That woman was Andraste, the heroine of many. She was not responsible for what some of her followers did. She fought slavery and died bravely
That is not fanatic to be angry if people literally violate her remains. Not to mention that Wynne is actually much more wary of the Chantry than Lelianna

[Shaen Mac Tir]

I know they are. Destroying the Ashes is not a part of my headcanon either. What struck me is Wynne's reaction, mostly. After it and her appearance in DAA ("you are a jerk but hey, help us one more time?"), I stopped liking her.

I mean - come on, the Warden is trying to save the world, to save REAL people who are suffering, and all this doesn't matter to her, she is only concerned of the ashes. I find it creepy as hell. If there was a massive world war going on, the destruction of a religious artifact to achieve victory seems to be a fair price for all those lives. Don't you think?

[Vapaa]

Isabella has her blame for the Tome, but I never give her to the Arishock for I hate when people impose their personal or religious laws on someone else. I would have her trialed on a Kirkwall tribunal, but not submitted under Qunari law, because it isn’t a Qunari territory.

[Shaen Mac Tir]

Isabella has her blame for the Tome, but I never give her to the Arishock for I hate when people impose their personal or religious laws on someone else. I would have her trialed on a Kirkwall tribunal, but not submitted under Qunari law, because it isn’t a Qunari territory. 

 

Fair deal, but the game doesn't offer us any option other than "kill the Arishok and let Isabela loose" or "give her to the Arishok".

As for me, I don't like Arishok's beliefs, but I don't want to kill him for what happened. So I guess letting him take Isabela away seems fair enough to me.

[Chari]

I know they are. Destroying the Ashes is not a part of my headcanon either. What struck me is Wynne's reaction, mostly. After it and her appearance in DAA ("you are a jerk but hey, help us one more time?"), I stopped liking her.
I mean - come on, the Warden is trying to save the world, to save REAL people who are suffering, and all this doesn't matter to her, she is only concerned of the ashes. I find it creepy as hell. If there was a massive world war going on, the destruction of a religious artifact to achieve victory seems to be a fair price for all those lives. Don't you think?

No. She is concerned with people's lives as well. But Wynne wouldn't agree to forget morals just for the sake of survival. People like her aren't afraid of death, but of loss of one's heart and soul.
Her idea of GWs is actually pretty naive, but it is important in even dark times to have some ideals to follow, realistic or not. Otherwise we all will be nothing but cynics

[Shaen Mac Tir]

That's something I can't grasp. Not really. I respect all religions, but when people put religion above thousands of innocent lives, it seems... creepy. Reminds of the Dark Ages, to be specific. And that is something I cannot and do not approve.