12496 réponses à ce sujet

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But the point is that two men or two women don't have to worry about the pregnancy. Sure gay people might want to discuss about children but then the discussion is different. Sure either man or woman can want either flowers or swords but the point is that usually flowers are given to women because of that the discussion is different depending on the gender. Would you like it that there wouldn't be any of that kind of customs?

Pregnancy and children are a very touchy issue that I think is best left out of the equation. People have a lot of varied thoughts on the issue and it would be difficult to represent all of them. I don't think a video game really needs "pregnancy scare" content for hetero couples. I just don't feel like most people, especially most women playing female characters, wants to deal with that kind of thing. 

 

Yeah, I would like it if there weren't those kind of customs and I don't want them heavily highlighted. Thedas is supposed to be a fairly gender equal nation. If LIs are going to be giving varied gifts in a romance, I'd rather they be related to in game choices, in some way. Not in relation to my gender, in a way that may or may not even be relevant to the personality of the character I've made. I don't want them highlighting my gender. I want them to focus on something actually relevant to the story. It just seems like a huge waste of dialog, to me. 

[Chari]

Isabela risked her life to free Castillon's slaves, and had no reward in sight for doing so. He could have simply had her killed on principle, but made her get the tome in exchange for her life. I could arguably put more blame on Castillon for this, because Isabela only stole that lousy book under coercion, not under the promise of money.

And in an act 3 she is back to her past self. Sweet

[SurelyForth]

Because the risk of getting pregnant is real, whether a pair wants kids or not. And n DA universe there are not yet means to prevent it

DA is a mature rated games. With an alive world full of people with different points of view. Including biased ones. They never promised anyone a world where no social discrimination exists. It is restricted but not absent

 

Yes, there is. Wynne even says so in Origins. Also, there have been means of preventing and aborting pregnancies since ancient times. Just because there's not boxes of condoms laying around camp doesn't mean that our characters are screwing around without protection. Also, not all women can have babies, and again, having it unnecessarily dragged into the game can be really, really alienating for us, never mind people who don't choose to have kids IRL and have to deal with pressure from friends and family to do so. It's just not something that needs to happen in the game itself.

 

And I would rather not deal with sexism. You seem to think it should be one of the prices we pay to play as women, but it absolutely should not be. For me, the best part of getting to be a woman in these games is that I don't feel as burdened by the baggage I deal with every day. Life is far from perfect for our protagonists, but it's horrible in a different kind of way from every day life and, at the very least, I know that it's (almost) as horrible for male versions of myself as it is for me. 

[In Exile]

I'm  going to use female protagonist and male LI as an example. They could talk about children. Is there a risk for woman to get pregnant and are they going have sex when there is a risk for woman to get pregnant. How that is going to affect the mission. Is it a risk they are willing to take. That kind of discussion didn't happen with Fenris. They could also talk about having children later. Do they want children etc.

 

 

Or they could talk about how there are lots of ways to have sex without pregnancy ever coming up. Because, seriously, conversations like that kind of presuppose there's One True Way of having it. That's also the problem with sex scenes.  F/F, M/M and M/F couples can all 69. So there wouldn't have to be differences in sex scenes, unless we come back to the One True Way of Having Sex idea. Also, having kids would take the whole "true wuv" problem Bioware romances have to level 11. We've barely gotten to know each other, and now we're talking kids? 

[renfrees]

Because the risk of getting pregnant is real, whether a pair wants kids or not. And n DA universe there are not yet means to prevent it

DA is a mature rated games. With an alive world full of people with different points of view. Including biased ones. They never promised anyone a world where no social discrimination exists. It is restricted but not absent

Actually there is, as Wynne mentions it.

[In Exile]

Because the risk of getting pregnant is real, whether a pair wants kids or not. And n DA universe there are not yet means to prevent it

DA is a mature rated games. With an alive world full of people with different points of view. Including biased ones. They never promised anyone a world where no social discrimination exists. It is restricted but not absent

 

I'm starting to feel like I need to bring diagrams. The risk of pregnancy can be 0 in any M/F relationship, and you can have a wild and crazy sex life at the same time. 

[Hellion Rex]

To lighten up the mood

 

BY QUEEN AIMO

 

[Ianamus]

The Grey Warden is Scottish? 

 

Or maybe it's just how I'm reading the text.

[Hellion Rex]

The Grey Warden is Scottish?

 

Or maybe it's just how I'm reading the text.

No clue. But I kind of imagine him having a bit of an accent.

[Chari]

Yes, there is. Wynne even says so in Origins. Also, there have been means of preventing and aborting pregnancies since ancient times. Just because there's not boxes of condemns laying around camp doesn't mean that our characters are screwing around without protection. Also, not all women can have babies, and again, having it unnecessarily dragged into the game can be really, really alienating for us, never mind people who don't choose to have kids IRL and have to deal with pressure from friends and family to do so. It's just not something that needs to happen in the game itself.

And I would rather not deal with sexism. You seem to think it should be one of the prices we pay to play as women, but it absolutely should not be. For me, the best part of getting to be a woman in these games is that I don't feel as burdened by the baggage I deal with every day. Life is far from perfect for our protagonists, but it's horrible in a different kind of way from every day life and, at the very least, I know that it's (almost) as horrible for male versions of myself as it is for me.

Even modern means fail from time to time. Imagine how efficient ancient ones were. GW tho have less chances of having a baby unlike normal untainted people

Don't assume things for me I never meant in the first place.
DA is a dark fantasy. We have slavery, blood magic, demons, political games, genocide, racism. It is not sexist to put sexist characters in a game which is supposed to be mature and adult. Unless developers obviously agree with them and try to make it some moral lesson
At least this time we'll have to deal with actual racism - since different races may face different problems doing some quests - it makes the world more alive, more complex. I dont know how you feel, but proving to Sten that a woman can be a good warrior as well was incredibly satisfying. If you need an escapist game - I'd recommend pokemon or Disney games. Otherwise... That's how life is, it's full of different people both good and shitty

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I kind of hope the warden is German, because Weisshaupt sounds German and the Anderfels have a Germanic feel, to me, but this is just because I only associate him with being a warden. He might not even be from the Anderfels. lol

[In Exile]

Even modern means fail from time to time. Imagine how efficient ancient ones were. GW tho have less chances of having a baby unlike normal untainted people

Don't assume things for me I never meant in the first place.
DA is a dark fantasy. We have slavery, blood magic, demons, political games, genocide, racism. It is not sexist to put sexist characters in a game which is supposed to be mature and adult. Unless developers obviously agree with them and try to make it some moral lesson
At least this time we'll have to deal with actual racism - since different races may face different problems doing some quests - it makes the world more alive, more complex. I dont know how you feel, but proving to Sten that a woman can be a good warrior as well was incredibly satisfying. If you need an escapist game - I'd recommend pokemon or Disney games. Otherwise... That's how life is, it's full of different people both good and shitty

 

It's complete nonsense to put sexism in a game where there's no history of sexism. It's just a bizarre and nonsensical belief that has no justification in the setting, and is more a reflection of the attitude of the writer or advocate of the view. There's a whole other set of things wrong with intentionally making a sexism setting, but right now in dragon age sexism makes as much sense as a group of people that are suddenly racist based on skin colour. 

[Chari]

I'm starting to feel like I need to bring diagrams. The risk of pregnancy can be 0 in any M/F relationship, and you can have a wild and crazy sex life and the same time.

If one of the partners is ill or has some unique traits. Modern people tend to be more weak than previous generations despite having a longer life span. Including fertility

[Farewell]

Why do babies need to enter into it? Couldn't a PC and their Love Interest simply be worried about how their relationship will effect their missions? Can't a LI say "Hey, I get worried about you sometimes" or "the thought of you getting hurt sucks ass", a la Garrus (or, more dramatically, Anders)? Babies and marriage are a touchy subject, even for women. It's also something that holds women back in real life, and I don't think it has any place in escapist media. 

 

Same with sexism. I want less of that BS in my games, not more. Sten questioning whether women could fight was pretty much my limit- and that was actually a useful insight into his character. Anything else just feels like poking and "remember that you're a woman...remember that no matter where you are, or how badass you're supposed to be, people will think you're lesser." No. None of that.

 

ETA: Oh! And why flowers? Why not something that is useful for any character- like an enchanted amulet or ring that can be worn. There are all kinds of ways to have meaningful interactions that don't call attention to gender, I'm a little confused why anyone would feel the need to go to that well in a game that otherwise treats its protagonists the same across gender, race, and class. 

 

Of course romances can be written so that the baby issue is not discussed. But why? Why wouldn't it be as any other issue in a game? If it's touchy subject then it is to some people. This just reminds me of the episode of South Park where the boys tried to make christmas presentation at school which wouldn't offend anybody and it was very bad. Nobody liked it. I think there are heavy subjects in DA world and I don't think babies are to most heaviest. I think people will be offended anyway. No matter what you do.

 

I like sexism in a game if it's done right. If I have a dialogue option to defend myself then I don't have problem with it. I like the idea that I am the hero in the end even if others didn't believe because I'm a woman. I can show them that they were wrong and people can change their mind about you which is great.

 

Why not flowers?

[AresKeith]

No clue. But I kind of imagine him having a bit of an accent.

 

Maybe he's originally from the Anderfels

[Hellion Rex]

Maybe he's originally from the Anderfels

Would that constitute a German accent, perhaps?

[Ianamus]

It's complete nonsense to put sexism in a game where there's no history of sexism. It's just a bizarre and nonsensical belief that has no justification in the setting, and is more a reflection of the attitude of the writer or advocate of the view. There's a whole other set of things wrong with intentionally making a sexism setting, but right now in dragon age sexism makes as much sense as a group of people that are suddenly racist based on skin colour. 

 

But Thedas does have a history of sexism. 

 

Women were not allowed to be Chavaliers before Aveline, and Chantry priests and the Divine are only ever female. 

[In Exile]

If one of the partners is ill or has some unique traits. Modern people tend to be more weak than previous generations despite having a longer life span. Including fertility

What?  No, it means that they have all the other kinds of sex that isn't vaginal. Maybe the M Inquisitor loves getting pegged. Who knows? Who cares? There is an incredible range of things an M/F couple could do that, literally, would be impossible to get pregnant from. 

[In Exile]

But Thedas does have a history of sexism. 

 

Women were not allowed to be Chavaliers before Aveline, and Chantry priests and the Divine are only ever female. 

 

You make a good point about Orlais specifically being sexist - Cousland's mom comments on that as well. But the Chantry is an example of the reverse.You'd expect sexism beliefs to abount about men based on the Chantry (which IMO I think is a natural consequence of the setting), but no one who says "more sexism in games" really means having a bunch of scenes where characters go "LOL, you're a man? And you think you can lead? But seriously, I'm going to talk to your obvious leader, Leliana or Cassanda, now". 

[Chari]

It's complete nonsense to put sexism in a game where there's no history of sexism. It's just a bizarre and nonsensical belief that has no justification in the setting, and is more a reflection of the attitude of the writer or advocate of the view. There's a whole other set of things wrong with intentionally making a sexism setting, but right now in dragon age sexism makes as much sense as a group of people that are suddenly racist based on skin colour.

There were. Aveline the knight, the first Silent Sister both suffered greatly and only due to their sacrifices women obtained rights to wield weapons in their cultures
Sexism, racism etc is much deeper than many people think. Look at our closest related species like primates, at other developed species like dolphins, elephants, wolves or lions who all show a high or medium level of conscience. They torture, murder, rape and practise cannibalism, their hierarchy is brutal, unfair.
Humans started like this as well. There was no forum on which they all decided "let's abuse these stupid women, poc, poor, children etc cause we are evil". It's just that we started as animals. And as we evolve we get rid of these stereotypes, cultural biases because we become smarter, more aware. Still, due to our psychology we will never get rid of them all. We'll simply replace old ones with new ones and continue our struggle
Thedas may be a fantasy world, but it is made by real people. And to sympathise with them we adapt characters, world, rules, cultures, intentionally or not. Otherwise cartoons and games about animals would have real animals, and no human persons wrapped in an imagine of a talking beasts

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I like sexism in a game if it's done right. If I have a dialogue option to defend myself then I don't have problem with it. I like the idea that I am the hero in the end even if others didn't believe because I'm a woman. I can show them that they were wrong and people can change their mind about you which is great.

 

Why not flowers?

What annoys me about the scenario most, personally, is that it's just assumed that, as a male, I want the sword. Yes, a sword is practical, but it would be nice to have something nice and thoughtful that isn't all about violence and work. As a male, I would still really appreciate the flowers more so than a gift that says, "I know you're good at killing, here's something I got you to help you with that." But the suggestion didn't consider that and that's why I dislike adding gender based content. There's undoubtedly going to be a lot of situations like this that just assume the audience wants their relationship to follow gender stereotypes. 

[Farewell]

Or they could talk about how there are lots of ways to have sex without pregnancy ever coming up. Because, seriously, conversations like that kind of presuppose there's One True Way of having it. That's also the problem with sex scenes.  F/F, M/M and M/F couples can all 69. So there wouldn't have to be differences in sex scenes, unless we come back to the One True Way of Having Sex idea. Also, having kids would take the whole "true wuv" problem Bioware romances have to level 11. We've barely gotten to know each other, and now we're talking kids? 

 

I was just talking about that there is risk of pregnancy in m/f relationship so it matters what is your gender. Of course the couple can talk about the positions but that means also that the gender matters in that particular case. I meant the sex scenes in a way that you can see the bare male chest but not bare female chest. So your gender matters in that case.

[Chari]

What annoys me about the scenario most, personally, is that it's just assumed that, as a male, I want the sword. Yes, a sword is practical, but it would be nice to have something nice and thoughtful that isn't all about violence and work. As a male, I would still really appreciate the flowers more so than a gift that says, "I know you're good at killing, here's something I got you to help you with that." But the suggestion didn't consider that and that's why I dislike adding gender based content. There's undoubtedly going to be a lot of situations like this that just assume the audience wants their relationship to follow gender stereotypes.

PC lines should stay neutral. NPCs though were brought up in specific cultures with specific traditions

[Farewell]

What annoys me about the scenario most, personally, is that it's just assumed that, as a male, I want the sword. Yes, a sword is practical, but it would be nice to have something nice and thoughtful that isn't all about violence and work. As a male, I would still really appreciate the flowers more so than a gift that says, "I know you're good at killing, here's something I got you to help you with that." But the suggestion didn't consider that and that's why I dislike adding gender based content. There's undoubtedly going to be a lot of situations like this that just assume the audience wants their relationship to follow gender stereotypes. 

 

Well not all women like flowers and not all women like swords. I guess your LI will have to assume something if he is going to give you anything. It is up to you to react it.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Well not all women like flowers and not all women like swords. I guess your LI will have to assume something if he is going to give you anything. It is up to you to react it.

I would much rather it was a gift like the ones from Zevran and Morrigan in DA:O. Zevran's gift was an earring that had personal importance for him and it didn't matter what gender your character was, because that had nothing to do with the intent or the personal meaning it had to him. Morrigan's gift of the enchanted ring, even if she was gender gated, could have just as easily been given to a woman with no changes. There was no reason for gender to come into the equation and the gifts were both actually more meaningful and story relevant than the sword vs flowers concept is.