12496 réponses à ce sujet

[OctagonalSquare]

Yeah, to be factual, I should have said that the population of the offspring's species would be viable.  A grizzly-polar bear hybrid has a population level fitness of almost zero.  It's on the population level that a species' fitness is actually measured.  Species hybridization rarely results in a "fit" species.

 

With regard to humans and Neanderthals, that's why one popular theory is that Neanderthals are actually a sub-species (H. sapiens neandertalensis), which is why the hybrid offspring were able to sustain and thrive in Europe.

I am familiar with that theory and subscribed to it for a while. However, genetic testing apparently shows that we are different enough to be considered separate species. Plus, it's not like there were populations of 50/50 Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon hybrids roaming about. They were pretty much absorbed into our own genome to the point where we have just a bit of their DNA.

 

With that said, if this conversation is to continue, we should continue it over PM.

[Neon Rising Winter]

First off: Thedas may be progressive, but being a homosexual even in the most progressive world is still a very different experience than being gay. And I'm always a little bit personally skeptical of people who say their sexuality has no bearing on who they are: I'm my own person and I'm much more than gay, but my sexuality has helped to shape many important aspects of my personality.

 

Even if Thedas isn't homophobic it is certainly hetero-normative (or at least it's been presented in that way). Gay characters might have faced pressure from their parents or society to associate with the opposite sex due to procreative or political reasons. It's entirely possible, I realize, to tell these sorts of stories with bisexual characters, but I agree with the sentiment that not every character should be available to everyone because "fair".

 

And frankly, just the story of a gay person living in a fantasy world is a pretty unique one in general. I've never seen it told in a video game before.

 

However, for me at least, I appreciate gay/bisexual characters where that is not a big issue, it is not one of the defining points of their character and we do not have to talk about it at great length, or even short length. If it went this way it would be live retreating back to the 80s where if you saw a gay charcater you knew you would be treated to much discussion about this issue and it would be their defining feature. (Well, you might get some offensive stereotypes instead, but hopefully we're not in too much danger of that here).

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Okay, stereotypical "being gay is so haaaaaaaaard" dreck. That's the kind of story we're talking about.

 

I think I can live without that. In fact, I'd rather shoot myself in the head before I put up with another one of those.

I'm actually really, really worried that gating could lead to a lot more of this and that would disappoint me extremely. It doesn't help that this is the example that the few people that have actually even tried to comment on the "story differences" have gone straight to. The last thing I want is more depressing stories about how awful it is to be gay.    

[syllogi]

 

And frankly, just the story of a gay person living in a fantasy world is a pretty unique one in general. I've never seen it told in a video game before.

 

It's not a game obviously, but if you like well written fantasy with gay main(!) characters, The Steel Remains is pretty cool.

 

And while it's a good example of what you would probably like to see, in that it deals with a world where homosexuality is very taboo, and Gil's life is very much affected by his sexuality, I would argue that Thedas is nothing like that world, and I'm glad of it.  

 

Homophobia perpetrated by others does not define a gay person's personality any more than sexual harassment would define any given woman.  Yeah, those are both aggressions that could shape a person's life, but it would get really old really fast if the only way writers knew to telegraph that a character is LGBT was to have them being constantly marginalized or harmed for who they are.

[Mockingword]

I'm actually really, really worried that gating could lead to a lot more of this and that would disappoint me extremely. It doesn't help that this is the example that the few people that have actually even tried to comment on the "story differences" have gone straight to. The last thing I want is more depressing stories about how awful it is to be gay.    

Right?

 

I mean, let's be clear here. Such stories exist for the benefit of straight people. Gay people don't need them, they already know that being gay sucks all around, and not in a fun way.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Right?

 

I mean, let's be clear here. Such stories exist for the benefit of straight people. Gay people don't need them, they already know that being gay sucks all around, and not in a fun way.

Pretty much. It's an after school special to promote tolerance. Which is great for what it is, but it would be nice if it wasn't all the content for our demographic. It's definitely been a great change that DA hasn't taken that approach so far. It would be seriously depressing to lose that.

[Mockingword]

Pretty much. It's an after school special to promote tolerance. Which is great for what it is, but it would be nice if it wasn't all the content for our demographic. It's definitely been a great change that DA hasn't taken that approach so far. It would be seriously depressing to lose that.

If there's a gay guy in fiction who is anything less than a badass, ass-kicking, name-taking motherfucker, I don't wanna know about it. 

[Giggles_Manically]

If there's a gay guy in fiction who is anything less than a badass, ass-kicking, name-taking motherfucker, I don't wanna know about it. 

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/BadassGay

[N7_5P3CTR3]

I never said any of the DA2 characters or their loves would change due to Set sexualities, but I will give you one example, I feel that had Anders been bi, instead of player sexual, he would have told me about Karl.

 

 

I said it gave more concrete character development from a writing stand point, which I feel would allow for greater character mobility within the world. As in: It's easier to carry over a previous character because their arc is more linear.

[Allan Schumacher]

you have to remember that the people you are dealing with that are Human, and wither or not we want to admit it

 

Funny.  I frequently get the opinion that people don't consider that I am human.  I'm just a game developer and I exist to give gamers what they want and if I don't, I'm just a bad person.

 

 

most people objectify people, and put them into categories of "Attractive and not attractive". Yes its superficial, shallow and what have you. But thats how some people react. If not all. To one degree or another.

 

To me, you have literally just said that my own personal challenges and struggles are "something I just need to get over."  What's next?  "It's not a big deal?"  "Don't worry about it?"

 

Now if I tell anyone that is upset at how they feel romance content will be in the game any of these things, is that acceptable.  But it's extremely unpleasant to basically be told "Hey man, don't worry about the fact that it's something you're hypersensitive to.  It's just the way people are."  Now I'm not in a good mood.  I'm curious how the rest of the thread will come across to me....

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Anders talked about having heterosexual sex while in a m/m relationship. In my opinion, him not talking about Karl was flatly a bad writing decision. He wasn't kept ambiguous. 

[Ryzaki]

Anders talked about having heterosexual sex while in a m/m relationship. In my opinion, him not talking about Karl was flatly a bad writing decision. He wasn't kept ambiguous. 

 

I HC it as him being a secretive bastard but he really should've told both genders Hawke.

 

I don't know why the devs tried to cater to those "oooh bi guys are icky." types.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I HC it as him being a secretive bastard but he really should've told both genders Hawke.

 

I don't know why the devs tried to cater to those "oooh bi guys are icky." types.

It was a mistake that they left the information out. I have no idea why the writer felt that was a good way to handle the issue, especially since there was no problem talking about his freaky magic lightning sex with Isabela. I think it's just something they should specifically handle differently with bisexual characters. Gating seems to not be the main issue.   

[SurelyForth]

I'm of the mind that Anders' "decision" to not talk about Karl with F!Hawke was more of a decision to keep Hepler's intended romance arc for Hawke and Anders intact for at least one gender. The talk pretty much had to happen with M!Hawke, to establish Anders has always been pansexual, but it also kind of throws off the Act 1 romance arc in that there's less of that "I want you, but I'm a monster who will hurt you!" drama that F!Hawke gets that is closer to the Buffy/Angel dynamic Hepler emulated. 

[azarhal]

 

Eh, yes and no.  If you romance Alistair, you can become queen (or mistress of the king).  The romance is directly intertwined with the major events of the game.  Same with Morrigan.  Certainly, you play through those major events no matter what, but if you romance Leliana or Zevran, the romance and the major plot are not really connected at all.  Those romances feel like footnotes to the main event.  And there's nothing wrong with some romances not being connected to major events at all (Leliana is my favorite of the romance options), but it's when the two that ARE related are the straight romances that it becomes an issue.

 

Edit: Meant to say Zevran, not Alistair, my bad.

 

Becoming Queen is not intertwined with a major event, making Alistair king is not a major event. It's a player's choice at the Landsmeet. Romance (or no romance) do not change the level of involvement of the characters in the main plot as such it is not intertwined with it.

 

It seems that people can't make the difference between "I feel special because Alistair is king and I get to sleep with him" with Alistair is important to the Ferelden civil war plot because he is a kingly-bastard.

[Mockingword]

I'm of the mind that Anders' "decision" to not talk about Karl with F!Hawke was more of a decision to keep Hepler's intended romance arc for Hawke and Anders intact for at least one gender. The talk pretty much had to happen with M!Hawke, to establish Anders has always been pansexual, but it also kind of throws off the Act 1 romance arc in that there's less of that "I want you, but I'm a monster who will hurt you!" drama that F!Hawke gets that is closer to the Buffy/Angel dynamic Hepler emulated. 

Lol. Maybe she realised that guys just don't want or need that drama.

[Ryzaki]

It was a mistake that they left the information out. I have no idea why the writer felt that was a good way to handle the issue, especially since there was no problem talking about his freaky magic lightning sex with Isabela. I think it's just something they should specifically handle differently with bisexual characters. Gating seems to not be the main issue.   

 

Yeah they really should.

 

 

I'm of the mind that Anders' "decision" to not talk about Karl with F!Hawke was more of a decision to keep Hepler's intended romance arc for Hawke and Anders intact for at least one gender. The talk pretty much had to happen with M!Hawke, to establish Anders has always been pansexual, but it also kind of throws off the Act 1 romance arc in that there's less of that "I want you, but I'm a monster who will hurt you!" drama that F!Hawke gets that is closer to the Buffy/Angel dynamic Hepler emulated. 

 

Ah this makes sense. Still they could've gone back to the "I'll hurt you" right after the Karl conversation. maybe even have him say people who try to get close to him end up hurt like Karl /shrug

 

 

Lol. Maybe she realised that guys just don't want or need that drama.

 

Pretty sure plenty of females don't want that drama either.

[Grieving Natashina]

It was a mistake that they left the information out. I have no idea why the writer felt that was a good way to handle the issue, especially since there was no problem talking about his freaky magic lightning sex with Isabela. I think it's just something they should specifically handle differently with bisexual characters. Gating seems to not be the main issue.   

What I read simply stated that DG and Hepler both didn't think that Anders would be comfortable telling a lady Hawke about Karl.  I have no idea why and I thought the exclusion was stupid myself, but there it is.

[SurelyForth]

 

 

Pretty sure plenty of females don't want that drama either.

 

Definitely. I let it slide with Anders because he's just wall-to-wall drama, but I'd rather not see it again for a while. 

[Mockingword]

I'm sure many women don't, but the most popular hetero relationships in fiction are grossly unhealthy to a one.

 

I mean, people who dump on Twilight often look to Buffy as some sort of flawless, uber-feminist conter-argument. I'm like "Uhhh... any of you actually watch the show? Cause I seem to remember Spike being so obsessed with Buffy that he kept a robot sex-slave version of her around his gross cave. Also, I remember her having sex with him while pretending to be that robot."

[Grieving Natashina]

Definitely. I let it slide with Anders because he's just wall-to-wall drama, but I'd rather not see it again for a while. 

I'll second this.  Between both Anders and Fenris, I think I'm good on constant emotional train wrecks from the male LIs for awhile. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

Becoming Queen is not intertwined with a major event, making Alistair king is not a major event. It's a player's choice at the Landsmeet. Romance (or no romance) do not change the level of involvement of the characters in the main plot as such it is not intertwined with it.

 

It seems that people can't make the difference between "I feel special because Alistair is king and I get to sleep with him" with Alistair is important to the Ferelden civil war plot because he is a kingly-bastard.

 

I think you're wrong in that who ends up ruling Ferelden feels like one of the big outcomes of the game. It's the result of a lot of little decisions that the player is directly involved with through the course of the game, and it's something where there's plenty of variations on the outcome, so the particular result you get comes across as something you made happen. Tying the romance into it then builds on that.

 

It's not about the level of involvement of the characters, it's about the level of involvement of the player, and that doesn't come about from some detached analysis of the story, that comes about from how they perceive it.

[Allan Schumacher]

It just seems absurd to me to create a cast of mostly unattractive characters

 

I don't consider the characters physically unattractive.  I suppose I needed to make that clearer?  The "least attractive" one for me is probably The Iron Bull.  But I can certainly look at it and go "yeah, some people will dig him."

 

Should we have conformed to more traditional standards of beauty?  Because to me that's a knock against including romances, because then it means more people "I want this character to be romanceable because I find them hot."  I consider this an uninteresting way to incorporate romance into a video game.  In fact, I have actually mused to myself (and to friends and colleagues) about how it would go over if the "clearly hot" characters were not the romanceable ones.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was some backlash.  Is it something that I should really take into consideration in the future?  Or is it a case of realizing that we've been catering to particular tastes moreso than others, much the same way we have a history of catering to heterosexuality in the past?  (and male heterosexuality at that)

 

 

If you're not going to give Solas hair, or you're going to make Beardy a big older guy with a heavy beard, or you're going to give the one guy a Freddie Mercury mustache, you have to do so knowing what the consequences of that will be.

 

If the consequences are helping compromise our institutionalized perceptions of what is and is not attractive, then it's worth it to me.  Every single time.  I don't consider it a good thing that people see themselves as unattractive because they are bombarded with imagery that is different than them.  If a requirement for romance content is that they adhere to overexposed standards of beauty, then I don't think romance content is compelling.

 

Further, please do not take my statement as being surprised by people's reactions.  That doesn't mean that I still don't find them disheartening because, to me, the characters are a lot more than their looks (whether it be video games or elsewhere).  I've also become more socially aware that constantly perpetuating a particular impression of what is considered beautiful may not be a good thing.