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I would feel a lot better about "conventional beauty standards" being subverted if it didn't seem like most of the time that's way more slanted towards the male choices than the female choices.
Right?
Like... Cassandra has a "masculine jaw"? Pffffffffffffft. Call me back when she's eight feet tall with corpse-coloured skin and horns.
Wow. That's, uh... wow.
Speaking of that, I have to wonder how they would handle Cullen if he turned out to be bi. I wouldn't be surprised if he was simply playersexual. After all, the topic can't come up with a FemQuisitor if he's attracted to someone who doesn't even exist in that universe.
XD
I do want to see how Cullen's bisexuality comes up. If he is.
Cullen was secretly in love with Anders. Obviously. That's why you can rat him out and Cullen does nothing. He goes after Anders, they fight, but it just ends in a night of steamy, steamy abomination-templar sex.
This explains so much.
I'm sure many women don't, but the most popular hetero relationships in fiction are grossly unhealthy to a one.
I mean, people who dump on Twilight often look to Buffy as some sort of flawless, uber-feminist conter-argument. I'm like "Uhhh... any of you actually watch the show? Cause I seem to remember Spike being so obsessed with Buffy that he kept a robot sex-slave version of her around his gross cave. Also, I remember her having sex with him while pretending to be that robot."
Oh that's just nasty. Besides you just used the argument that a certain trope being popular is no reason for you to want it in the game it's the same with the really unhealthy relationships for me. I rather more Garrus than Anders.
Haha I was just about to say-- it would have been a really formative relationship for my Dalish elf too, but I guess Tamlen wasn't into dudes. :/
I really hope, all around, that in DA:I we see more 'set sexualities' in the world in general. There is a LOT of offhand heteronormativity in the first two games. I saw a lot of implied hetero relationships in the origin stories and a lot of chances for a dude PC to flirt/kiss/express interest in various women we encounter. There's also a lot of straight couples and relationships that we just encounter.
I was stoked that Branka ditched Oghren for a chick (even though Branka's storyline was horrifically tragic) because at least it confirmed for me that queerness exists in Thedas outside my PC and his romance with Zevran. That's the stuff I want to see more of.
EDIT: My biggest worry, honestly, is that the only queer characters will be among the LIs and that everyone else in Thedas will be straight (or assumed to be straight since, with a lack of evidence, our society presumes straight as the default). I guess the Empress is supposed to be queer, but do you think we'll actually get to see this canonly stated in the game or will that be a bit of knowledge that only those who read the books will know about?
I continue to have a kneejerk response to people using the phrase "set sexualities" and assume they're going to follow it up with something something bisexuality isn't real. So I'm happy to see someone talking about set sexualities in terms of "clearly defined instead of assumed heterosexual." Let me like your post more! I really want to see more gay and lesbian people casually walking around Thedas. There are some in past games, of course. I just want more.
Master Wade and Herren are a gay couple, and I'm not sure how players missed that:
It's one of those things that I'm reluctant to assume unless confirmed. They certainly act like a couple, but too many prime time tv shows full of "heterosexual" men acting like couples while vehemently denying their couple-ness has me wary. I'm glad Gaider confirmed it, but it's never really stated in the games.
That's another reason why I think Aveline is a missed opportunity (other than that I just like her personality). She would have been a good choice for this subversion.
I think even the women that "subvert beauty standards" are pretty far removed from the men that do. Aveline and Cassandra are no where near as unconventional as Iron Bull, imo.
Oh that's just nasty. Besides you just used the argument that a certain trope being popular is no reason for you to want it in the game it's the same with the really unhealthy relationships for me. I rather more Garrus than Anders.
I never said people should want it, I was merely saying that they often do.
Right?
Like... Cassandra has a "masculine jaw"? Pffffffffffffft. Call me back when she's eight feet tall with corpse-coloured skin and horns.
The sad thing is, "conventionally attractive" is such a narrow band for women that even the fact that Cass has a scar counts as pushing her out of the ambit of "conventionally attractive".
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I think even the women that "subvert beauty standards" are pretty far removed from the men that do. Aveline and Cassandra are no where near as unconventional as Iron Bull, imo.
I don't even know how to register Iron Bull in this context. He conjures up images of "animals" to me more than people. Unconventional isn't the word for it (to me). It's more like alien.
edit: I guess you could say Mass Effect had plenty of the same going on though. Garrus is "birdlike", for example.
I think it's really as simple as "If I can't have that thing, it hurts less to know that noone else can either." For queer players, being denied something that a straight player can have just feels like twisting the knife.
Which is why I always try to make sure I'm focusing on homosexual representation when I talk about representation.
I'm not particularly interested in having set sexualities for the benefit of heterosexual players. But when a few gay people tell me that they really appreciated it, it makes me pause and wonder if I should reevaluate. I'm significantly more interested in giving queer players something and denying heterosexual players a piece of content.
I think it'd be interesting if the most sought after characters were actually the gay characters.
I hope that makes sense and helps you understand a little better where I think at least your queer audience is coming from.
I can understand it. It's why I am a big supporter of choice being available, and can greatly understand the equivalence of choice. I mentioned it in my wall o' text, but it was interesting and eye opening to have someone tell me that, frankly, they enjoy the idea of having a gay romance be solely gay simply from the perspective of "it feels like content that was specifically made to acknowledge me and that felt great." I realized that it's something that I take for granted because content is often made "for me."
The sad thing is, "conventionally attractive" is such a narrow band for women that even the fact that Cass has a scar counts as pushing her out of the ambit of "conventionally attractive".
You forgot the short hair.
The sad thing is, "conventionally attractive" is such a narrow band for women that even the fact that Cass has a scar counts as pushing her out of the ambit of "conventionally attractive".
But... media tells me that chicks dig scars. ):
Master Wade and Herren are a gay couple, and I'm not sure how players missed that:
http://forum.bioware...vers/?bioware=1
Edit: Also, if we even deal with the Empress, how would you want the DA Team to address her sexuality? Plus, why would she reveal it to the Inquisitor at all?
Ack, just realized my tone could've come off as harsh. My apologizes! I am curious about the answers though.
I picked up on it because I'm queer, but I'll bet a lot of players never noticed. And it hardly counts as representation if the mainstream player doesn't even catch it. Also, as much as I appreciated it, that's still, what... three total mentions of nonLI queerness in 2 games? (And that's if you count the kid and his qunari pal from DA2 that people still debate about).
There are many ways they could address Celene's sexuality without having her 'come out' to the PC. People gossip about world leaders all the time. There could be a major plot point involving her relationship whether with the elf girl (sorry i forget names and didn't actually read the book) or some other person that reveals her sexuality that way. I dunno. I'm not a writer, but I bet they could get creative. 
How will these people react if they learn that Cassandra's influence with the main plot is not as much as they believe it will be? Especially compared to other characters?
Will they feel justified in feeling mislead or betrayed because their romance was the one they didn't really like?
I can't speak for them, but for me it won't be much a problem since my attraction to Cass isn't by how 'important' she is to the plot, but her personality and aura overall.
I'd be surprised though if that was the case, her not being that important. But hey, at least i can romance her. 
Assuming she can be romanced by my poor lady.
I never said people should want it, I was merely saying that they often do.
Oh. Fair enough.
Look I just want a relationship if it must be dysfunctional to be the fun burning the house around our ears while partying dysfunctional and not the let me angst on you type.
You forgot the short hair.
There was also the furor over Viviene potentially having a buzz cut.
How will these people react if they learn that Cassandra's influence with the main plot is not as much as they believe it will be? Especially compared to other characters?
Will they feel justified in feeling mislead or betrayed because their romance was the one they didn't really like?
As far as I'm concerned, how central a character is to a story doesn't factor into how good a romance is. What matters is how well -done the content is and how complete the arc feels.
If a chambermaid at Skykeep is a potential LI, my question would be "how good is the story?"
I don't even know how to register Iron Bull in this context. He conjures up images of "animals" to me more than people. Unconventional isn't the word for it (to me). It's more like alien.
edit: I guess you could say Mass Effect had plenty of the same going on though. Garrus is "birdlike", for example.
Yeah Garrus likes like a bird and Tali might as well be a human with 3 fingers. 
It's one of those things that I'm reluctant to assume unless confirmed. They certainly act like a couple, but too many prime time tv shows full of "heterosexual" men acting like couples while vehemently denying their couple-ness has me wary. I'm glad Gaider confirmed it, but it's never really stated in the games.
Does it need to be though outright stated in the game? I'll grant you that Wade and Herren didn't act like a healthy couple, but I at least had no doubt that they were lovers. Most straight couples (in a game or out of it) don't always walk around holding hands and saying cutesy things together all the time to announce their sexuality, so I don't see an absolute need for it here. They do strike me as a couple that has stuck around long after the love is gone though.
On the flip side, I'd like to see a gay couple who's story doesn't end in tragedy. Leliana and Marjolaine; Brakha and Hespith; and now the business with the Empress. I personally don't need to see a gay couple announce their sexuality. What I would like to see is a stable and healthy gay couple that at least shows a few signs of being in love. A loving look, a touch on the cheek, a quick statement of "Of course, dear" said in loving tones would go a very long way towards showing a less tragic gay couple.
I don't even know how to register Iron Bull in this context. He conjures up images of "animals" to me more than people. Unconventional isn't the word for it (to me). It's more like alien.
edit: I guess you could say Mass Effect had plenty of the same going on though. Garrus is "birdlike", for example.
Yeah, Tali was the only "alien" looking female. I don't count the Asari, they were obviously made to be attractive. For guys, there was Garrus, Thane, Javik, Wrex and Grunt, Mordin. Women were also way more often just attractive humans. When someone is going to be waaaay out there, though, it's usually a dude.
Maybe it's just me, but I actually have found that I like certain heterosexual romances with male characters more because they are bisexual, even though I'm not ever planning to romance them with a male character. Like, I was already a fan of Kaidan Alenko before ME3, but the idea that he cares for Shepard no matter what their gender was pretty awesome to me. I may not agree with Anders' actions at the end of DA2, but I never doubt that he cares deeply for Hawke, and he would care as much no matter what.
I don't mind "sharing" the female characters either...I'm a huge fan of Isabela's romance, but I also love the idea of Fenris and Isabela together. And Alistair and Leliana being together in the alternate reality of Darkspawn Chronicles made sense to me. /shrug I just want to see the characters I like happy, even if my own player characters aren't with them.
I picked up on it because I'm queer, but I'll bet a lot of players never noticed.
I'm gay as a maypole, and I didn't see anything to indicate that Wade and Herren were even friends. Herren seems to genuinely hate Wade basically all of the time.
Honestly, the fact that a lot of people saw two effete, high-voiced men and immediately went "LOL FAGGOTS" is pretty offensive to me. 
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Yeah Garrus likes like a bird and Tali might as well be a human with 3 fingers.
And? I'm not saying it's a bad thing. The Turians are avian based. Qunari are called "oxmen".
This isn't "unconventional". Unconventional is... hell...ME. I'm unconventional. I'm a human being, but half-asian, half white.. don't have a chiseled jaw or strong build. My eyes might be a little bulged. I would say I'm a little goofy looking. BUT I'm human. I don't think fantasy races apply to the word "unconventional". They're in an entirely different stratosphere.
edit: Wait.. wait.. maybe you're agreeing with me. Sorry for the rant. lol
Um... I don't think my profanity filter is working. 
And? I'm not saying it's a bad thing. The Turians are avian based. Qunari are called "oxmen".
This isn't "unconventional". Unconventional is... hell...ME. I'm unconventional. I'm a human being, but half-asian, half white.. don't have a chiseled jaw or strong build. My eyes might be a little bulged. I would say I'm a little goofy looking. BUT I'm human. I don't think fantasy races apply to the word "unconventional". They're in an entirely different stratosphere.
I felt it was ridculous. It's okay for Garrus to look completely unhumanoid but woe betide the female LIs do the same.
They can a lot of fantasy races are way too though humanoid.
Um... I don't think my profanity filter is working.
Nah if you put it in plural you can get away with swears. BW's master filter at work.
And? I'm not saying it's a bad thing. The Turians are avian based. Qunari are called "oxmen".
This isn't "unconventional". Unconventional is... hell...ME. I'm unconventional. I'm a human being, but half-asian, half white.. don't have a chiseled jaw or strong build. My eyes might be a little bulged. I would say I'm a little goofy looking. BUT I'm human. I don't think fantasy races apply to the word "unconventional". They're in an entirely different stratosphere.
I'd be another example. I actually look a fair bit like Cullen, though with much darker hair. Except I'm about 5'6 1/2. Basically, Tom Cruise syndrome.
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