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Perspective is a funny thing. I have a gay family member who acts and even sounds like Wade with his partner and didn't find it at all hard to believe those two were a couple.
I always got a "It's not like I like you or anything. Baka." wibe from Herren. And my gay-dar isn't especially sophisticated.
I think, sadly, to some extent, it DOES need to be stated outright. Because if it's not, there will always be people who just 'don't see it' or who actively argue that a character ISN'T queer. Because of heteronormativity, we tend to assume people are straight until proven not. Straight couples don't need to walk around being cutesy together to prove they're a couple because we will assume they are without any explicit evidence. If that evidence isn't there for a gay couple, much of the time the viewer/player just won't even notice it, or will argue that they aren't gay because 'there's no evidence'.
You do bring up an excellent point. I've been with the same man for over 10 years and I'm happily married to him. I'm monogomous and most folks would automatically assume I'm straight as a result. For the record, I identify as pan, just the person I fell in love with happened to be a guy. It is time for a good representation of a gay couple to occur and perhaps some direct referencing is needed. That being said, I'd rather start off by having a gay companion, and have some of the important plot NPCs being in healthy homosexual relationships. While I can certainly see and understand the appeal of court gossip for the Empress' sexuality, I'd rather have a NPC gay/lesbian couple to say directly, "We've been in love for years." I think that would be more fulfilling than, "I heard a rumor that the Empress has a female lover." If anything, I'd like it to be a gay male couple that talks a bit about their relationships.
I 100% agree with you that we need some queer stories in the DA world that aren't tragic. When you list them all out like that, yikes.
I'm going to quote myself from earlier in the thread:
Plus, as others have mentioned, I've noticed that at least in Origins (never played the ME games, going by what I've experienced), with set sexualities, I did notice the plot important romances being straight. I think it's odd that the two straight romances (Alistair and Morrigan) automatically join the party, yet you can skip one bisexual romance (I've read about folks missing Leliana at the tavern) and have two times where you can kill the other (Zevran's ambush in the beginning and the Crows near the end if you didn't get high enough affection.)
Not to mention that Isabela, the only other lady in the series that has been open about previous relationships of her gender, is also at a tavern and thus skippable. I've read about folks that didn't go into the Hanged Man at night only to be really confused during the end of Act 2. 
That was my thought "Old married couple"
Oh good, it wasn't just me then.
Tali was at least less conventional than anything we've seen for women in DA, imo. I just imagine if we ever get a female Qunari, she'll be this super feminized, busty ideal of beauty, like all the concept art of female Qunari we've seen. Meanwhile, Iron Bull is scarred up, missing an eye and built like a horned refrigerator. I just feel like they make these huge double standards with approaching conventional standards of beauty.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Sigrun is unconventional sexy. To me anyways.
It helps that it's Morinth's voice actress.
Oh good, it wasn't just me then.
Yea, I got that from them too when I first saw them
Herren and Wade struck me as being a take off of the usual heteronormative "Old Married Couple"/"Henpecked Husband" design. I actually really dislike that type of bickering old married couple relationship when I come across it in media, if done more for laughs than effort to portray a more fleshed out relationship. Because if that is the entirety of the relationship -- just bickering and venom -- then, well, I'd be really concerned if it's healthy for all parties involved.
Master Wade and Herren are a gay couple, and I'm not sure how players missed that:
*snip*
I missed that. I totally missed that.
But you knooooow, I wasn't even thinking abt that kinda thing. That was nowhere on my mind. The only thing I was thinking of at the time was my fist full of dragon scales. And then, "Oh, Shyte! He closed the shop on me! Now I can't buy that loot I wanted." *shakesfist*
That and the way they reminded me more of like game devs vs "the suits". With all that talk of "My art takes time" and the "suit" being like "but we need to get the product out!"
That made me chuckle. Beyond that... they said they were business partners, so I just figured they were business partners. I thought, "oh, good deal. you got the creative one and the one that keeps the books balanced and the lights on. awesome......so, how's that dragon scale armor coming?"
I'm gay as a maypole, and I didn't see anything to indicate that Wade and Herren were even friends. Herren seems to genuinely hate Wade basically all of the time.
Honestly, the fact that a lot of people saw two effete, high-voiced men and immediately went "LOL FAGGOTS" is pretty offensive to me.
That...wasn't what I thought. At all. It's not cool to assume that just because they had a high pitched voice is what the give away was for me at least, so ease up.
They struck me as a couple, not due to the manners of speech, but how they acted towards each other. To me, they acted like a couple that once loved each other, but fell out of love years before the Fifth blight. I never doubted that they were a couple, I just thought it was sad that the writing team didn't show a gay couple that was actually in love and acting like it.
You know, it's funny, but I usually have pretty excellent gaydar and Wade and Herren didn't really ping to me. They seemed more like two sexless, bickering business partners. Now, of course, I can see it. But at the time, I didn't. It took coming on BSN and seeing it brought up here before I really considered it. Just goes to show that even those of us who don't expect heteronormativity everywhere still might not see it unless it's a little more explicit.
That was my thought "Old married couple"
Oh good, it wasn't just me then.
Yep, same for me.. and it was hardly because of any stereotypes but instead, their dynamic. I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume the former.
I was in the group discussion where people didn't seem to care as long as they got to see a face. Don't think I ever posted in the public thread so I'm not entirely sure what was going on in there.
Yeah I didn't get that impression from the general thread. XD
Well, it was just easier to go with a humanoid face. But they also had the fans wrapped around their finger by that point. If Tali had turned out to be Han Solo then chances are nobody would have been disappointed owing to the irreversible power of LOVE!
Pretty sure all the men romancing her would be just a tad worked up if Tali looked like Harrison Ford. 
Pretty sure all the men romancing her would be just a tad worked up if Tali looked like Harrison Ford.
I'm such an evil troll 
Pretty sure all the men romancing her would be just a tad worked up if Tali looked like Harrison Ford.
I don't know, a young Harrison Ford in drag could have been hot... 
They struck me as a couple, not due to the manners of speech, but how they acted towards each other. To me, they acted like a couple that once loved each other, but fell out of love years before the Fifth blight. I never doubted that they were a couple, I just thought it was sad that the writing team didn't show a gay couple that was actually in love and acting like it.
I could tell that they were supposed to be a gay couple, but to be honest it was only because of Wade's painfully stereotypical voice, not because of how they interacted.
I could tell that they were supposed to be a gay couple, but to be honest it was only because of Wade's painfully stereotypical voice, not because of how they interacted.
I can understand that, completely. While I didn't use Harren or Wade's voice to assume his sexuality and went by their actions towards each other (frankly, I've been wrong too many times in life and in games by assuming male homosexuality with a high pitched voice) I can see how BW might have pushed that stereotype too far. Personally, I'd like to see a homosexual couple more like this:
http://starwars.wiki...ki/Goran_Beviin
http://starwars.wiki...ki/Medrit_Vasur
Those guys are awesome. Healthy relationship, nice battle couple and pretty much stereotype free. What do you think?
Okay, stereotypical "being gay is so haaaaaaaaard" dreck. That's the kind of story we're talking about.
I think I can live without that. In fact, I'd rather shoot myself in the head before I put up with another one of those.
My sexuality is just one of the many, many aspects of what makes me who I am. It doesn't shape my personality any more than my dislike of cats or my love for pepperoni pizza. The only reason it seems to matter more than those things is because I won't be discriminated against or possibly attacked for hating cats or eating pizza.
My sexuality isn't nearly as important to me as it is to other people who are completely unaffected by it.
I guess I either don't communicate well or we fundamentally disagree. That wasn't my point. I'm not interested in a sob story about sexuality, and frankly, I'll doubt we'll get them. But people's sexualities shape their relationships and their relationships shape their pasts.
And we'll disagree here: my sexuality has shaped me in ways that my love of pizza and cats never will. But that's besides the point.
I think my larger argument is that being homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual is part of who a character is. It's a small part, but even small parts are important to who we are. And frankly, I just think that the only reasoning behind making a character bisexual is that it allows more people to romance them, and as long as everyone has 2 options I don't think it's really that worthwhile of an option.
And frankly, I just think that the only reasoning behind making a character bisexual is that it allows more people to romance them, and as long as everyone has 2 options I don't think it's really that worthwhile of an option.
Okay, before I react to this, I want to make sure I understand you correctly. If I'm wrong, please tell me.
Are you saying that the only reason that a companion and/or LI should be bisexual/pansexual is to be available to both genders? That there is no other reason for it?
I guess I either don't communicate well or we fundamentally disagree. That wasn't my point. I'm not interested in a sob story about sexuality, and frankly, I'll doubt we'll get them. But people's sexualities shape their relationships and their relationships shape their pasts.
And we'll disagree here: my sexuality has shaped me in ways that my love of pizza and cats never will. But that's besides the point.
I think my larger argument is that being homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual is part of who a character is. It's a small part, but even small parts are important to who we are. And frankly, I just think that the only reasoning behind making a character bisexual is that it allows more people to romance them, and as long as everyone has 2 options I don't think it's really that worthwhile of an option.
Okay, first of all: you are not eating the right pizza.
Secondly, I don't see why I should settle for two options when the resources for more exist. I can't think of any reason why it should be some massive struggle to make all the LIs available to both genders. There'd only really be a difficulty if Bioware went out of their way to use excessively gendered language in the dialogue, and there's no reason for them to do that. You say that sexuality shapes relationships. How does a same-sex relationship fundamentally differ from a straight one? Is there something I should know?
Thirdly, bisexuals also struggle to be treated fairly, and they should be given representation, regardless of whether or not there are any romanceable characters at all. That seems like a perfectly good reason to include them.
I guess I either don't communicate well or we fundamentally disagree. That wasn't my point. I'm not interested in a sob story about sexuality, and frankly, I'll doubt we'll get them. But people's sexualities shape their relationships and their relationships shape their pasts.
And we'll disagree here: my sexuality has shaped me in ways that my love of pizza and cats never will. But that's besides the point.
I think my larger argument is that being homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual is part of who a character is. It's a small part, but even small parts are important to who we are. And frankly, I just think that the only reasoning behind making a character bisexual is that it allows more people to romance them, and as long as everyone has 2 options I don't think it's really that worthwhile of an option.
I don't feel that my sexuality is a substantial part of my personality, at all. I just look at it as one of the many aesthetic quirks I have concerning attraction. Other people make it a major issue, but that's not how I see it, myself.
Even more so, though, I still can't begin to understand how we're meant to see vague concepts like this in fictional characters. That's the thing I still can't get anyone to explain to me.
Funny. I frequently get the opinion that people don't consider that I am human. I'm just a game developer and I exist to give gamers what they want and if I don't, I'm just a bad person.
To me, you have literally just said that my own personal challenges and struggles are "something I just need to get over." What's next? "It's not a big deal?" "Don't worry about it?"
Now if I tell anyone that is upset at how they feel romance content will be in the game any of these things, is that acceptable. But it's extremely unpleasant to basically be told "Hey man, don't worry about the fact that it's something you're hypersensitive to. It's just the way people are." Now I'm not in a good mood. I'm curious how the rest of the thread will come across to me....
Honestly I was saying it for your benift that maybe just maybe you need to step back from the topic, and that, honestly people are ****** assholes. And once they find a weakness in a mod or anyone else of power that they will pick and pick and pick until you get so full of rage that you will want to quit. I've been a mod in a game before, sometimes you just need to take a step back and cool down. Take a day off, or just not read the topic you need to for a day. It happens. I'm not saying your veiws are bad or that your even hypersensitive. I'm just saying that people are ****** dicks and will proposfuly try to ****** you the **** off.
If I came off as if I was belittling you, then I'm sorry, but I'm not. Ok?
.speaking of voices, i will say that the quality and sound of the voice acting of a character plays a Huge role in how much i'm attracted, or not, to them.
tbh, it plays far, far more of a role than what the npc looks like.
Voices actually don't mean much, to me. You have to have a really annoying voice before it becomes an issue for me. It's very, very rare that I'm ever extremely attracted to just a voice. In fact, none stand out enough for me to remember. Not just in Bioware games, but generally.
Voices actually don't mean much, to me. You have to have a really annoying voice before it becomes an issue for me. It's very, very rare that I'm ever extremely attracted to just a voice. In fact, none stand out enough for me to remember. Not just in Bioware games, but generally.
There are a few rare voices or accidents that I do find very attractive.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Voices (or maybe the performance in general) is very important to me. That's more of a modern thing though. I wouldn't have cared 15 years ago, of course.
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