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ah, Liara. Forgot abt her. And Kelly, tho, I like Kelly, I don't count that as a "romance" either..
I like Kelly too.
They actually did this. But only to straight females. Straight males and lesbians had all of their options carry over. And gay men had no options to carry over to begin with.
No, if you don't romance Miranda, Jack, or Tali in ME2, they are not available in ME3.
The people always available in ME3 are:
Liara
Ashley/Kaidan
Samantha
Steve
I'm not talking abt the quality of the romances, either. They were not available in ME3--that's a fact. You're talking ME2 to ME3. I'm talking ME3. If I start a new game of ME3, I have Kaidan. Period.
And it sure sounded like that's what you were saying. You're still saying it. You're saying we had 3 romances in ME3, that's simply not true.
How many male characters in ME 3 can be romanced? Not conditionally romanced. Just the total number of male characters in ME 3 that have romance content for straight females characters.
The answer is three. I'm not making it seem like anything more than that.
ETA: Please show me where I said you "had it good". Because, again, I say what I mean. If I meant that, then I would have said that.
I'm not talking abt the quality of the romances, either. They were not available in ME3--that's a fact. You're talking ME2 to ME3. I'm talking ME3. If I start a new game of ME3, I have Kaidan. Period.
And it sure sounded like that's what you were saying. You're still saying it. You're saying we had 3 romances in ME3, that's simply not true.
Get Mass Effect Genesis, Makes for a cool beginning flashback too.
No, if you don't romance Miranda, Jack, or Tali in ME2, they are not available in ME3.
The people always available in ME3 are:
Liara
Ashley/Kaidan
Samantha
Steve
I am talking about the total number of romanceable characters. Not the total number available to any one PC. That would be like saying that, for example, if Varric is only romanceable for female dwarves, he doesn't count as a female romance because not everyone has access to his content. Or like saying that I can't count Kaidan as a m/m option because I chose to kill him in ME 1. It doesn't negate the fact that he is still an m/m option.
I am simply using the total number of characters in ME 3 that are romanceable by someone. The ones who carry over count.
Am I just doing a terrible job of explaining myself or am I completely crazy with my criteria? I understand that that not all of them are romanceable by everyone.
How many male characters in ME 3 can be romanced? Not conditionally romanced. Just the total number of male characters in ME 3 that have romance content for straight females characters.
The answer is three. I'm not making it seem like anything more than that.
Not if you start a new game. No. There is no romance history there to be accessed. No flags. No nothing. And Idk what all lesbian romances got carried over except Liara--and tho she is a juggernaut--I think lesbians would have appreciated one more option in the previous games to carry over.
Am I just doing a terrible job of explaining myself or am I completely crazy with my criteria? I understand that that not all of them are romanceable by everyone.
I understand your point. The potential of seeing romance content with, lets say, Garrus is still there. They took the time and effort to put it in ME3 and only a female Shepard has any hope of accessing it.
I am talking about the total number of romanceable characters. Not the total number available to any one PC. That would be like saying that, for example, if Varric is only romanceable for female dwarves, he doesn't count as a female romance because not everyone has access to his content. Or like saying that I can't count Kaidan as a m/m option because I chose to kill him in ME 1. It doesn't negate the fact that he is still an m/m option.
I am simply using the total number of characters in ME 3 that are romanceable by someone. The ones who carry over count.
Am I just doing a terrible job of explaining myself or am I completely crazy with my criteria? I understand that that not all of them are romanceable by everyone.
okay, you know what. this ain't mass effect. so perhaps we should just drop it. I understand where you're coming from with numbers, we just have diff criteria for sample sizes.
cheers, and all that. 
Not if you start a new game. No. There is no romance history there to be accessed. No flags. No nothing. And Idk what all lesbian romances got carried over except Liara--and tho she is a juggernaut--I think lesbians would have appreciated one more option in the previous games to carry over.
You are the one making conditions, though. Okay, I'll play it your way.
If I import a Thane romance, can I romance him as a straight female? Yes. There's one.
If I import a Garrus romance, can I romance him as a straight female? Yes. There's two.
If I import a Kaidan romance or start a new game, can I romance him as a straight female. Yes. There's three.
I'm not talking about in any one playthrough. I'm talking about in the game as a whole.
And, Kelly imports over for lesbians and continuing that romance in ME 3 gives you the achievement.
I understand your point. The potential of seeing romance content with, lets say, Garrus is still there. They took the time and effort to put it in ME3 and only a female Shepard has any hope of accessing it.
Thank you. I thought I was going crazy because I'm usually pretty good about clearly articulating my thoughts.
okay, you know what. this ain't mass effect. so perhaps we should just drop it. I understand where you're coming from with numbers, we just have diff criteria for sample sizes.
cheers, and all that.
Fair enough. And, to top it off, it won't be an issue in DA: I since there's no romance import. What we get is what we get, regardless of if we import or not.
I am talking about the total number of romanceable characters. Not the total number available to any one PC. That would be like saying that, for example, if Varric is only romanceable for female dwarves, he doesn't count as a female romance because not everyone has access to his content. Or like saying that I can't count Kaidan as a m/m option because I chose to kill him in ME 1. It doesn't negate the fact that he is still an m/m option.
I am simply using the total number of characters in ME 3 that are romanceable by someone. The ones who carry over count.
Am I just doing a terrible job of explaining myself or am I completely crazy with my criteria? I understand that that not all of them are romanceable by everyone.
You're viewing it from a "Player owns the trilogy" view while others like me are arguing a "Players owns ME3 only" view. If you only have ME3, the ME2 romances are not available.
I see your points and agree with some of them. We are just arguing different things. 
Not if you start a new game. No. There is no romance history there to be accessed. No flags. No nothing. And Idk what all lesbian romances got carried over except Liara--and tho she is a juggernaut--I think lesbians would have appreciated one more option in the previous games to carry over.
Liara is the only one that gets carried over but you can start a new romance with her.
We really didn't have any other options though.
I mean, say if Jack was an f/f romance in ME2, I would still 'count' her towards choices for lesbian Shepards in ME3 even if seeing that content required importing a save with a Jack romance (and new players couldn't do the romance).
So, I'm gonna miss playersexual LI's. Tbh, I had no idea Anders was "Bi" when I played the first time. Or Fenris for that matter. Because I didn't play it from that angle so I had no idea. Except for Isabela being Bi cuz she stated as much in the game. Everyone else I did not consider Bi as much as I considered them Playersexual.
I was watching this old TV show from the 70s called Emergency. The 40 year olds back then looked 60.
As time changes....health and attitudes change. Today...the majority of people in their 40s do NOT look like what 40+ year old people looked in the 70s. People in their 40s, 50s, and 60s actually look younger now than they did in the 70s
Ahh, okay, I get you. Younger looking men in appearance, men that subvert gender norms here and there, are less hypermasculine, and men that appear more in your particular age group.
Also, though, I'd like to point out that the actors I posted pictures of and the ones I talked about later are actually in the 26-32 range. They're actually not my age. They're at least 5+ years older than me. That's just how old "teens" and "university students" are on TV. It's not like I don't know "around 30" can look good. Around 30 or more is how old nearly everyone on TV is, whether they're supposed to be or not. I feel like people make it seem like a person can't be youthful without being like 16. You can make people in their late 20s or early 30s and still make them look fairly young. There are a lot of examples of real people like that in media. I think the media slants our view on ages. Most 15-16 year olds are in their late 20s and most people in their late 30s (Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt) are actually pushing or passed 50.
You and daveliam's post did give me another perspective on the issue. I can appreciate that your experience with gays in media has been poorly colored by stereotypes, which makes someone like Cortez seem refreshing. I'm not saying gay males should stop being presented that way, entirely. Ideally, I'd like diversity in all demographics. To me, it seems like we've swung in a different direction where people are afraid of being too stereotypical. I just want more variety, not a complete change in the other direction. And for males, in general, honestly. Not just gay males.
Thank you. I thought I was going crazy because I'm usually pretty good about clearly articulating my thoughts.
No, you articulated it well enough, I just did not agree with what you were articulating.
So, I'm gonna miss playersexual LI's. Tbh, I had no idea Anders was "Bi" when I played the first time. Or Fenris for that matter. Because I didn't play it from that angle so I had no idea. Except for Isabela being Bi cuz she stated as much in the game. Everyone else I did not consider Bi as much as I considered them Playersexual.
I would prefer everyone being bi over playersexual.
It's a weird metagame thing, but I was upset when I found out Anders was bi/gay in male Hawke playthroughs. It felt like Anders was keeping that a secret from me the whole time.
Fenris it wasn't a big deal, cos he never referenced past loves.
Am I just doing a terrible job of explaining myself or am I completely crazy with my criteria? I understand that that not all of them are romanceable by everyone.
I understand what you mean; I think others maybe are prescribing meaning to your words that just aren't there. I think this is because the pain of how straight females got shafted in ME3 is still raw. (And yet gay male PCs got shafted in the series over all even more... and not the good kind of shafted.)
So, I'm gonna miss playersexual LI's. Tbh, I had no idea Anders was "Bi" when I played the first time. Or Fenris for that matter. Because I didn't play it from that angle so I had no idea. Except for Isabela being Bi cuz she stated as much in the game. Everyone else I did not consider Bi as much as I considered them Playersexual.
Personally, I don't technically like calling these characters 'bi' unless it is directly stated by them (such as in Izzy's case). The simple logic is if I romance Fenris with my female Hawke, then it's safe to consider him 'straight' in that particular reality. But in another parallel universe where I romance him with my dude Hawke, he can be gay all he wants because there is literally nothing in that playthrough that states otherwise. So given these two situations, Fenris is neither gay, nor straight, nor bi. He's simply whatever I want him to be.
It's why I find DA2's approach to romance to be the best of the bunch, really. But I'm not expecting to see that in DA:I.
No, you articulated it well enough, I just did not agree with what you were articulating.
But what he said was true. He explained it pretty well. A female PC could potentially have 3 romances in ME3. Doesn't mean that it still didn't suck to play a fem PC in ME3, without having played ME1 and ME2, and realize you only had Kaidan as you're option.
I would prefer everyone being bi over playersexual.
It's a weird metagame thing, but I was upset when I found out Anders was bi/gay in male Hawke playthroughs. It felt like Anders was keeping that a secret from me the whole time.
Fenris it wasn't a big deal, cos he never referenced past loves.
Ah, see I didn't know abt Anders for quite some time after I had played the game initially. And after the whole Chantry thing , and me having to decide his...fate. Finding out he was Bi and had a thing w/Karl was like...well...
Maybe that was in line with his character? He was secretive abt stuff. I still don't know his name. His real name.
The fact remains: Everyone else who wasn't a straight dudeshep got shafted. End of story.
Edit: first Elder King, now rapscallioness. What it is with us having the same avi? 
The simple logic is if I romance Fenris with my female Hawke, then it's safe to consider him 'straight' in that particular reality. But in another parallel universe where I romance him with my dude Hawke, he can be gay all he wants because there is literally nothing in that playthrough that states otherwise. So given these two situations, Fenris is neither gay, nor straight, nor bi. He's simply whatever I want him to be.
Yeah I confess I really liked this about DA2. I felt like I was writing the characters as I played. That's very fun and fulfilling for someone who loves to write.
The fact remains: Everyone who wasn't a straight dudeshep got shafted. End of story.
Yep lol Let's hope things are more equal in DA:I (I bet they will be; the DA writing team is top notch, though I feel ever so faint concern that they took in some ME writers.)
I understand what you mean; I think others maybe are prescribing meaning to your words that just aren't there. I think this is because the pain of how straight females got shafted in ME3 is still raw. (And yet gay male PCs got shafted in the series over all even more... and not the good kind of shafted.)
Hey that's my line! 
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