12496 réponses à ce sujet

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Bisexual people do often have preferences and there shouldn't be a problem with bringing them up with their partner, or pointing out people they find attractive and talking about their sexuality. They shouldn't have to "play ambiguous" so that the player can pretend they are straight or gay if they want to. 

I'm not really that hung up on monogamy, myself, but I'm given to believe that most people that are don't tend to be extremely pleased with their partners bringing up their attraction to other people while in a relationship regardless of sexuality. I doesn't really bother me, but I'm not even a little surprised that it bothers some people.

 

I don't think people would have a problem with Zevran's preference if it wasn't for the fact that media always tends to make the "exception" the same-sex attraction. You almost never have a bisexual person that prefers the same sex and makes that the focus of their interaction. If there was more balance in the occurrence of this, I don't think so many people would be annoyed.     

[Mockingword]

Right, but characters can reject you for any OTHER reason. I don't see why it should be sexuality.

[Ianamus]

It's not "hidden" just because they choose not to mention it.

 

Have you considered that your partner's sexual identity might just not be your business?

 

In my opinion being in a relationship with someone is the only time your sexuality is someone else's business. 

[JadePrince]

The term "playersexual" doesn't bother me at all, but having most of the companions be ambiguous did bother me. As does that fact that people seemingly want that awful element to return.

 

I don't like the implication that the bisexual characters should hide their attraction to the other gender when in a relationship with the player in case it makes them feel uncomfortable. It reminds me of all the people who moaned about Zevran stating that he prefers women sexually.

 

Bisexual people do often have preferences and there shouldn't be a problem with bringing them up with their partner, or pointing out people they find attractive and talking about their sexuality. They shouldn't have to "play ambiguous" so that the player can pretend they are straight or gay if they want to. 

 

Personally, it wasn't Zevran's preference for women that bothered me during my playthrough (romancing him as a gay male warden). It was the fact that he CONSTANTLY talks about women/boobs/hetero sex and always hit on the women in the party. It made it feel like the fact of me being able to romance him was little more than a flag someone had marked rather than him being written as a character who is genuinely bisexual. It felt like they wrote him this way almost specifically so he wouldn't make straight guy players uncomfortable talking about how he likes dudes. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed romancing him! I'm just hoping for a LI this time around who is a little... well... gayer, I guess. :/ I mean, if you were a straight guy in a relationship with a bisexual girl, wouldn't it bother you if all she talked about was how hot she thinks girls are? Wouldn't you wonder just a little why she was with you?

[CuriousArtemis]

In my opinion being in a relationship with someone is the only time your sexuality is someone else's business. 

 

Yeah, it would be weird. I mean say you have been married for 8 years and discover your partner is bisexual. It's not like him/her being bisexual even remotely matters; it's that they didn't tell you, and WHY DIDN'T THEY TELL YOU??

[BubbleDncr]

What if they aren't keeping it from you, but rather just didn't think it'd be important?

 

From all my experience with gay and transgendered people, it's always been something they struggle with. So my statement is based off that.

 

Maybe there's bisexual people who don't struggle with it - I have some bisexual friends who seem to fall in that boat, but they've always been open with me about being bisexual. They just talk about previous relationships, or just people they think look hot that they see on the street. It would be weird to me if someone I was in a relationship with never mentioned someone else they thought was attractive. Or previous relationships.

[daveliam]

The way that I see playersexuality is that if a character is straight when I'm one gender and gay when I'm the other gender, then they are playersexual.  We haven't seen that yet.  If we saw Merrill say that she was only interested in men to a male Hawke and only interested in women to a female Hawke, then I would say that she is playersexual.  But we don't see that.  I have no reason to believe that her sexuality is changing versus assuming that she is bisexual.  People can headcanon however they want, but it doesn't seem like strong evidence to suggest that she is changing her sexuality.  I am firmly of the camp that thinks that we've never seen a truly playersexual character in a Bioware game.

 

I just don't like the implication that unless a bisexual character explicitly states their bisexuality then they are not really bisexual.

[CuriousArtemis]

Personally, it wasn't Zevran's preference for women that bothered me during my playthrough (romancing him as a gay male warden). It was the fact that he CONSTANTLY talks about women/boobs/hetero sex and always hit on the women in the party. It made it feel like the fact of me being able to romance him was little more than a flag someone had marked rather than him being written as a character who is genuinely bisexual. It felt like they wrote him this way almost specifically so he wouldn't make straight guy players uncomfortable talking about how he likes dudes. 

 

Yeah that kinda got on my nerves, too, but on the either hand, I think it made my Warden feel comfortable about their relationship because he knew Zevran was only joking.

 

He might have gotten jealous if Zev really did flirt with all the guys lol

[Deviija]

As a openly bisexual person, the player-sexual term doesn't offend me. It just bothers me when people use it as a excuse to say "bi companions are unrealistic", that bi characters need to sleep around to be "realistically bisexual" or even deny that bisexuality is a real sexuality

 

The bold in particular.  Playersexual as a term itself never offended me per se.  It is only when people began using the term and twisting it to mean something biphobic and insulting that I had a problem with.  It is also off-putting when people use the term when speaking solely about bisexual LIs/non-explicit sexuality LIs, and rarely ever cause such dust-ups and complaints when it comes to, say, ME2 when you can romance roughly a THIRD of your crew (and flings on top of it) as a heterosexual person, regardless of alignment, appearance, alien friggen DNA etc factors.  But when you can romance 4 people as either gender in DA2, then it's unrealistic and "playersexual (in a negative sense)." They are both the same thing in essence.

 

Anyway, if BioWare decided to use a true playersexual open-ended LI mechanic, I *might* be okay with it.  As long as they stated upfront that is the type of mechanic they are using and it is not intended to be set sexuality of any type.  This would also mean no eluding to previous romantic and sexual experiences in the past by any LI, or expressing attraction to any NPC/gender, though.  Because if you do have a character that mentions attraction to and/or sleeping with one sex or both sexes, then it no longer is a mechanic of ambiguity for the player but an erasure and a commentary on a character's sexual orientation/preferences. The other condition is that they have representation of bi, gay, lesbian folks among the non-romanceable companions and major NPCs of the game.  Just leaving playersexual ambiguous LIs isn't a mark in the representation column and it'd need to be seen elsewhere.  Those are quite a few writing hoops to deal with, but that would be true playersexual mechanics, imo.  Otherwise, just leave bi LIs as bi LIs and acknowledge them for what they are in-game and out of game.  

[Nocte ad Mortem]

From all my experience with gay and transgendered people, it's always been something they struggle with. So my statement is based off that.

 

Maybe there's bisexual people who don't struggle with it - I have some bisexual friends who seem to fall in that boat, but they've always been open with me about being bisexual. They just talk about previous relationships, or just people they think look hot that they see on the street. It would be weird to me if someone I was in a relationship with never mentioned someone else they thought was attractive. Or previous relationships.

Anders grew up in the circle system, which has been implied to be a huge free love orgy when the templars aren't looking. I don't get the impression that there's any stigma against same sex relationships in the environment he comes from. Between his commentary in Awakening and DA2, as well as some bits of Asunder from other characters, it's made pretty clear that mages have a lot of their own trysts and high school romance drama. There's never any implication that same sex relationships have any sort of negative implication.     

[JadePrince]

 

I don't think people would have a problem with Zevran's preference if it wasn't for the fact that media always tends to make the "exception" the same-sex attraction. You almost never have a bisexual person that prefers the same sex and makes that the focus of their interaction. If there was more balance in the occurrence of this, I don't think so many people would be annoyed.     

 

THIS. I know it's like... a really popular trope in queer media-- the love story being a 99% straight person finding that ONE GUY/GIRL who's the exception to their rule, but I don't find that romantic or appealing at all. I don't want to be some straight guy's exception. And I don't want to play my Inquisitor as the ONE MAN who could make a heavily straight-leaning bisexual guy change his mind.

[daveliam]

Personally, it wasn't Zevran's preference for women that bothered me during my playthrough (romancing him as a gay male warden). It was the fact that he CONSTANTLY talks about women/boobs/hetero sex and always hit on the women in the party. It made it feel like the fact of me being able to romance him was little more than a flag someone had marked rather than him being written as a character who is genuinely bisexual. It felt like they wrote him this way almost specifically so he wouldn't make straight guy players uncomfortable talking about how he likes dudes. 

 

This was my issue as well.  He felt like he wasn't written with gay players in mind.  He felt like a fully fleshed out Latin Lover character who was easily flagged as being open to m/m players.  It felt like the m/m romance was an afterthought and the fact that he was the only "option" for gay guys made it particularly crappy in my opinion.

[jlb524]

Right, but characters can reject you for any OTHER reason. I don't see why it should be sexuality.

 

I always saw the BW romances as pretty damn "playersexual" in a sense to begin with.  If you want to romance 'X'...s/he is there and you can do it.

 

As long as you pass the gender check ofc.

[Ianamus]

I'm not really that hung up on monogamy, myself, but I'm given to believe that most people that are don't tend to be extremely pleased with their partners bringing up their attraction to other people while in a relationship regardless of sexuality. I doesn't really bother me, but I'm not even a little surprised that it bothers some people. 

 

I'm very hung up on monogamy myself, but most couples I see frequently have had conversations like "There was a really attractive stewardess on the flight" or "Wow, our waiter is very good looking".

 

And I really don't think there's anything wrong with that. 

 

"I only have eyes for you" is complete sap, and I've honestly never known anyone in a relationship like that.

 

If you were a straight guy in a relationship with a bisexual girl, wouldn't it bother you if all she talked about was how hot she thinks girls are? Wouldn't you wonder just a little why she was with you?

 

If it was literally all she talked about, yes. If it was the same amount Zevran did... not really. Same for a guy going on about girls, though in both cases I'd likely just join in. 

[daveliam]

 

If it was literally all she talked about, yes. If it was the same amount Zevran did... not really. Same for a guy going on about girls, though in both cases I'd likely just join in. 

 

 

It's been a bit since I've done the Zev romance (because I actually really, really dislike it), but I think that Zev mentions past lovers or flirts with people that you meet at least 7-8 different times for females and only 1-2 that I can remember for males.  It's really skewed, I think. 

[CuriousArtemis]

It's been a bit since I've done the Zev romance (because I actually really, really dislike it), but I think that Zev mentions past lovers or flirts with people that you meet at least 7-8 different times for females and only 1-2 that I can remember for males.  It's really skewed, I think. 

 

I don't remember him ever mentioning doing anything with a guy tbh.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

 

I'm very hung up on monogamy myself, but most couples I see frequently have had conversations like "There was a really attractive stewardess on the flight" or "Wow, our waiter is very good looking".

 

And I really don't think there's anything wrong with that. 

 

"I only have eyes for you" is complete sap, and I've honestly never known anyone in a relationship like that.

You've never known anyone in a relationship that had jealousy issues? You've been a lot more lucky than I have, gotta say. Like, A LOT more.

[AresKeith]

What if they aren't keeping it from you, but rather just didn't think it'd be important?

 

Imho, while it doesn't really seem important I would actually still like to know

[Ianamus]

I just don't like the implication that unless a bisexual character explicitly states their bisexuality then they are not really bisexual.

 

On the flip side of the coin though I don't like the implication that bisexuals only come in two modes: Always going on about their attraction to both genders and/or having frequent sex with both genders or never mentioning or implying their bisexuality at all. 

 

I honestly think that the vast majority of real-life bisexual people fall into the seemingly nonexistent middle ground. Not harping on about or bringing it up all the time, but not ignoring it, never mentioning and acting as though it doesn't exist. I'm a person who very, very rarely talks about their sexuality, but even I occasionally say things that would heavily imply it to people who didn't already know. 

[pallascedar]

It's been a bit since I've done the Zev romance (because I actually really, really dislike it), but I think that Zev mentions past lovers or flirts with people that you meet at least 7-8 different times for females and only 1-2 that I can remember for males.  It's really skewed, I think. 

 

Nah, he mentions one male lover and one female lover. He's more explicit about his female lover, and unlocking the dialogue about his male lover requires a more particular circumstance. He mentioned also that he slept with several female marks.

 

To be honest, I mainly get the sense that Zevran was written in a way that was meant to be "un-offensive" to straight men. When he first meets a female warden he flirts with her, but not a male warden. Zevran is uncharacteristically (in my estimation of his character) cautious about his attraction to men, and that strikes me as more being worried about offending the base than it did an actual element of his character.

[BubbleDncr]

Anders grew up in the circle system, which has been implied to be a huge free love orgy when the templars aren't looking. I don't get the impression that there's any stigma against same sex relationships in the environment he comes from. Between his commentary in Awakening and DA2, as well as some bits of Asunder from other characters, it's made pretty clear that mages have a lot of their own trysts and high school romance drama. There's never any implication that same sex relationships have any sort of negative implication.     

 

I was more going off the thread of "Have you considered that your partner's sexual identity might just not be your business?" being not solely related to Dragon Age, but life in general. Because I like the Dragon Age romances to be somewhat like real life.

 

But if I'm limiting it just to Thedas and it's social norms....if I were in a relationship with Anders, at some point during the 3 years that they lived together, it would be weird to never have asked about his previous loves. But since that conversation never happens (with a female Hawke), and he never mentions anyone else he find attractive - it is pretty normal to assume he's straight.

 

The fact that he only mention Karl in that context to a male Hawke means that he's either more comfortable being open with male Hawke (because if same-sex romances are socially acceptable, why wouldn't he have the same dialog regarding karl with femhawke?), or that he has a different sexuality in male Hawke playthroughs.

 

And I don't like to believe that the player character is important enough to alter people's sexualities, so I default to the first reason.

[Ianamus]

 

You've never known anyone in a relationship that had jealousy issues? You've been a lot more lucky than I have, gotta say. Like, A LOT more.

 

I have, but never to the extent of "How dare you mention offhandedly that you find that actor/actress attractive!" 

[Grieving Natashina]

 

I'm very hung up on monogamy myself, but most couples I see frequently have had conversations like "There was a really attractive stewardess on the flight" or "Wow, our waiter is very good looking".

 

And I really don't think there's anything wrong with that. 

 

That sounds like my husband and I.  Either he or myself will comment on a gal, and sometimes go, "Eh, not my type," or sometimes say, "WOW, she's hot!"  Most long term couples I know don't get jealous over their partner looking at other women/and or men.  

 

 

 

 

 

I have, but never to the extent of "How dare you mention offhandedly that you find that actor/actress attractive!" 

 

I haven't seen it in any healthy long term couple, for sure.  

[aTigerslunch]

Wow, this is interesting. Edit: Also, know several married couples that dont have issues with each other saying who is attractive.

I know a few bisexuals, one prefers men over women, two prefer women over men, all these are ladies. Two males, both prefer women.

One is family, the others are friends of mine.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I was more going off the thread of "Have you considered that your partner's sexual identity might just not be your business?" being not solely related to Dragon Age, but life in general. Because I like the Dragon Age romances to be somewhat like real life.

 

But if I'm limiting it just to Thedas and it's social norms....if I were in a relationship with Anders, at some point during the 3 years that they lived together, it would be weird to never have asked about his previous loves. But since that conversation never happens (with a female Hawke), and he never mentions anyone else he find attractive - it is pretty normal to assume he's straight.

 

The fact that he only mention Karl in that context to a male Hawke means that he's either more comfortable being open with male Hawke (because if same-sex romances are socially acceptable, why wouldn't he have the same dialog regarding karl with femhawke?), or that he has a different sexuality in male Hawke playthroughs.

 

And I don't like to believe that the player character is important enough to alter people's sexualities, so I default to the first reason.

Well, honestly, I think it was a mistake not having Anders tell women about Karl. I think all history content about companions should be available to both genders. I don't think it's a big deal if characters like Fenris and Merrill don't bring up their sexuality because it doesn't pertain to anything they talk about with either gender. Neither of them have an element of their past related to sexuality that they speak of with either gender. To me, that's totally fine and there's no reason they need to force it in. If they write something like Anders and Karl into the plot for one gender, I do think it should be allowed for both. If nothing else, because it sucks that one gender gets to learn more about the character, regardless what it is they got to learn.