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Yeah, I first played the game in 2012, and even then it felt dated and off. I had played DA2 before that, and had assumed from that playing experience that sexuality was not a big deal in Thedas at all.
To be fair to Bioware, though, it's not like they had much experience with writing same-sex relationships at the time. I really believe they improved a lot with DA2 and even ME3. Maybe not perfect, but I think it's getting better. It's a work in progress, which I respect and understand.
To be fair to Bioware, though, it's not like they had much experience with writing same-sex relationships at the time. I really believe they improved a lot with DA2 and even ME3. Maybe not perfect, but I think it's getting better. It's a work in progress, which I respect and understand.
Very true. And now we get the chance to see how much they have improved in DAI, particularly within the scope of Orlais.
So, I don't know if that helps.
Thank you for sharing your story. I always like hearing people's stories and how they inform their perspectives.
I don't think that people really have any issue with Zev himself. It's more than Zev represents a bunch of other questionable stuff about bisexuals all rolled up into a little tanned and blond package. Particularly that he was the only m/m option is the thing that really doesn't sit well for me because, as many have stated, he seems to have been written for a different audience (i.e. not gay men). The character himself is a perfectly fine character. And I certainly don't think that characters like him shouldn't exist. I'd just like to see other options for m/m romances and a more well-rounded representation of bisexual men in general.
If it helps, I'm not sure "exception" is necessarily how he feels. I romanced him as a woman and asked him about it. He admits to being bisexual, but also that he generally prefers women. This is not surprising since many bisexual people do generally prefer being with one gender over another, though that doesn't mean they like being with the person of the generally-less-sought-out gender less.
I don't know. Zevran said he went through training-from-hell growing up in order to join the Crows. That they pushed, tortured, and constantly tested the youngins to weed out the weak. He also says they require "a certain open-mindedness" to join their ranks; that you have to show you're willing to sleep with targets of both genders before you can officially become one of the working Crows. It might just be me, but I interpreted it to mean he was forced to sleep with a man or men before he was ready to see how willing he was to "get into it," and it might have caused him some subconscious aversion that he would not have had otherwise.
Speaking from personal experience: I was forced into something before I was ready when I was young. I now feel more comfortable around women (my own gender) than men (the gender of the person that pushed me), even though I am attracted to people of both genders. So, it can happen. While in a way I hope it's not true for him, I also would hate for him to be a straight guy forced into "adaptive" bisexuality who then goes with a male Warden as an exception to his natural preference.
So, I don't know if that helps.
I think your interpretation is totally plausible and the messed up thing is that it's sort of the impression that I got as well! But that doesn't make me feel BETTER. That makes me feel like Zevran actually ISN'T into dudes. And then, if that's true, why is he with my male Warden? Because of some creepy/gross Crow conditioning? Or worse, some sort of messed up Stockholm syndrome because he failed to kill me and then I spared him and he loves me now? Ugh.
EDIT: To bring this all back around to the topic-- As much as there were parts of the Zevran romance I enjoyed, I definitely hope that DA:I's romances are better. And if set sexualities mean I'll be able to romance a guy who is genuinely interested in being with another man (not just as an exception to his typical rule), then well... :/ I WANT bisexual companions. I just want them to be well-written. And I want them to be a little more diverse than we've seen so far (aka promiscuous rogue types).
To be fair to Bioware, though, it's not like they had much experience with writing same-sex relationships at the time. I really believe they improved a lot with DA2 and even ME3. Maybe not perfect, but I think it's getting better. It's a work in progress, which I respect and understand.
This is very true. Zev was only the second m/m romance ever. Compare his romance to the Kaidan romance in ME 3 and, in my opinion, it's not even close. They are definitely getting better at writing for a gay audience. And I love them for that!
I think your interpretation is totally plausible and the messed up thing is that it's sort of the impression that I got as well! But that doesn't make me feel BETTER. That makes me feel like Zevran actually ISN'T into dudes. And then, if that's true, why is he with my male Warden? Because of some creepy/gross Crow conditioning? Or worse, some sort of messed up Stockholm syndrome because he failed to kill me and then I spared him and he loves me now? Ugh.
That is why I've only been able to romance him once, and that was my first time through. Even as a lady Warden, I was left with that impression that he was attracted to me mainly because I let him live. I didn't feel very comfortable and while I like being his friend, I don't do his romance anymore.
It's maybe a bit strange that both of our male elf companions have had seriously disturbing sexual abuse histories implied, if not outright stated. Hopefully Solas moves away from this. 
This is very true. Zev was only the second m/m romance ever. Compare his romance to the Kaidan romance in ME 3 and, in my opinion, it's not even close. They are definitely getting better at writing for a gay audience. And I love them for that!
Heaven help us if they give us a Kaidan level romance in DAI.
Heaven help us if they give us a Kaidan level romance in DAI.
If we could have a romance like that AND it was with Dorian or Bearded Warden, I think you might literally fall over dead with joy. 
I recall Zevran hitting on Alistair a bit, though it was more subtle than how he'd hit on Leliana, Morrigan, and Wynne. Goes completely over Alistair's head.
Moving away from gender gating for a minute;
I wonder, does everyone think there will be main romances again? What is everyone's opinion of them? Would you rather we didn't have them? Back to gender gating, are you worried about getting locked out of them?
I think you might literally fall over dead with joy.
Oh, and you wouldn't? 
Ugh, why is it not October already? 
Moving away from gender gating for a minute;
I wonder, does everyone think there will be main romances again? What is everyone's opinion of them? Would you rather we didn't have them? Back to gender gating, are you worried about getting locked out of them?
Main romances? You mean like Alistair/Morrigan? I could care less about how "plot relevant" my LI of choice is. And as to gender gating, I'm not worried. In the end, in all honesty, I'll be fine with whoever I do get.
Guest_Faerunner_*
I think your interpretation is totally plausible and the messed up thing is that it's sort of the impression that I got as well! But that doesn't make me feel BETTER. That makes me feel like Zevran actually ISN'T into dudes. And then, if that's true, why is he with my male Warden? Because of some creepy/gross Crow conditioning?
Ah, it didn't help. lol
I don't know. I see it as he could have been into dudes before, or would have grown to love dudes just as much or slightly more than women if allowed to let his feelings progress naturally. If anything, I almost see it as him going against his conditioning by entering a purely consensual, non-contractual, non "you're my target so I have to seduce you" tryst like in his past.
Or worse, some sort of messed up Stockholm syndrome because he failed to kill me and then I spared him and he loves me now? Ugh.
Rest easy, that's not how Stockholm Syndrome works. It's an emotional defense mechanism against people that hold you captive. If your Warden had locked him up, forced him into service, threatened him for trying to leave, etc. it might be the case. Zevran is the one who first asks join you as protection against the Crows, you're traveling in the open, and for the most part I get the impression he can physically get away whenever he wants. I get the impression he at first follows you for protection, then later gratitude, and if you're nice to him and slowly earn his esteem, friendship, and love, he stays out of that.
Different people have different perspectives though. Zevran's relationship with the Warden has problems no matter how you look at it.
EDIT: To bring this all back around to the topic-- As much as there were parts of the Zevran romance I enjoyed, I definitely hope that DA:I's romances are better. And if set sexualities mean I'll be able to romance a guy who is genuinely interested in being with another man (not just as an exception to his typical rule), then well... :/ I WANT bisexual companions. I just want them to be well-written. And I want them to be a little more diverse than we've seen so far (aka promiscuous rogue types).
Ah, makes sense. I see what you mean. And I agree to that.
The ones made so far are great and good for their time, but some more variety and representation would be nice for the future.
Moving away from gender gating for a minute;
I wonder, does everyone think there will be main romances again? What is everyone's opinion of them? Would you rather we didn't have them? Back to gender gating, are you worried about getting locked out of them?
I think that there will probably be more like the DA 2 approach where all of the romances touch on the major conflicts in some way but there isn't a clear "main romance". I don't have a problem with a "main romance" in a game, though. My only issue with them is when they are almost always the straight options. If they were more varied in representation, I'd be cool with them. I don't mind romancing the "lesser" LI, but I'd at least like the opportunity to have access to the "main one" if there is one.
If there are "main romances" in DA: I, I think that Cass is a lock for the ladies, but I'm not sure for the guys. My gut would be Cullen (which would jive with the two of them being the only announced LIs), but his NPC status is confusing to me in that respect. The jury is still out on that one.
ME 2
Lesbians - 0 romances
Am I just doing a terrible job of explaining myself or am I completely crazy with my criteria?
I'm getting confused. No, if it's not stated in lore that a character is bisexual then I don't just assume they're bisexual. If it's not stated in lore that they're straight or gay, then I don't assume they're straight or gay.
No, of course not; why on earth would you assume I'd think that?
Oh yes, as I said earlier, I can certainly see how it might be offensive to bi folks.
I think at this point it's best to agree to disagree. I'm seeing a disconnect somewhere in our conversation because I never said that you should assume that a character is a bisexual, nor did I say you should assume that a character is straight nor gay.
I don't make the same distinction between someone saying "If I don't see anything that tells me they are bisexual, then there's no reason to think that they are bisexual" as being different between video game characters or actual people. Especially when evidence CAN be shown that they ARE bisexual (all the companions in DA2 are capable of having sex with any gender character). Especially within context of referring to the fanbase as a whole, and not just the perspectives that you possess yourself.
I think this is in large part because we also have different perceptions on video game stories and the amount of freedom to craft, specifically, the narrative that you want for the entire game. I have had this discussion in different contexts with people (usually around player choice, and whether that means that the player should be able to choose a narrative path that they want and if that freedom isn't provided, then we have done them a disservice - it spawned out of ME3 ending discussion).
I'm not sure what you mean here, to be honest. The sentence doesn't make sense.
Because when I see people saying that a person isn't bisexual unless it's clearly shown, I see it as us providing opportunity for people to deny that a character is bisexual and it's often done for reasons that I find very uncomfortable. Note that this does NOT mean that when I see you saying that, it makes me uncomfortable. But you're not the only person that says stuff like that. I've been reasonably active on the boards since March 2012, and I've seen countless arguments from countless people on all sides of the argument. I'm much, MUCH more firmly against "everyone being bisexual is unrealistic" (since it's neither everyone, nor do I consider it sufficiently improbably that it's not "realistic") types of defenses for playersexuality.
I think I can understand why you don't see it the same way (since you see it as losing out on the opportunity to write your own story where in one playthrough, a character can be straight/gay/bi and that's an awesome freedom that you love), but I've seen and heard people get upset about it that I can appreciate their cries to not provide people with options for erasure. Sorry.
Depending on how you view it, in ME 2 lesbians had access to no romantic content or the best romantic content.
Liar of the Shadow Broker is all about Liara and I think of it as one of the best DLCs BioWare has produced.
That's true. I actually completely forgot about the fact that Liara has some romance content in the DLC because I've never actually romanced her. She's just my gay Shepard's BFF (all this talk of Garrus being his BFF is 
. He's definitely his closest straight guy friend, but Gay Shep and Liara are the true BFF's!).
Main romances? You mean like Alistair/Morrigan? I could care less about how "plot relevant" my LI of choice is. And as to gender gating, I'm not worried. In the end, in all honesty, I'll be fine with whoever I do get.
I don't even consider them main romances, like their romance arc doesn't really matter for their plot relevant
Depending on how you view it, in ME 2 lesbians had access to no romantic content or the best romantic content.
Liar of the Shadow Broker is all about Liara and I think of it as one of the best DLCs BioWare has produced.
That's true. I actually completely forgot about the fact that Liara has some romance content in the DLC because I've never actually romanced her. She's just my gay Shepard's BFF (all this talk of Garrus being his BFF is
AMEN. Liara was my best friend throughout the entire series. One hell of a character. I actually think Garrus was my least favorite of the squadmates.
The fact remains: Everyone else who wasn't a straight dudeshep got shafted. End of story.
I don't even consider them main romances, like their romance arc doesn't really matter for their plot relevant
Even still, if you to pick the ones that could be possibly designated as "main romances", those two are the first to come to mind.
If there are "main romances" in DA: I, I think that Cass is a lock for the ladies, but I'm not sure for the guys. My gut would be Cullen (which would jive with the two of them being the only announced LIs), but his NPC status is confusing to me in that respect. The jury is still out on that one.
I would be surprised if the "main" romance was an NPC. Like, really surprised. My gut feeling is towards it being Solas, but it's basically the same reason people think Cassandra, he's gotten so much early coverage. If the Venatori plot is more substantial than we realize to the main arc, I could see it being Dorian.
This hinges on the fact that I'll be surprised if Solas and Dorian aren't the LIs, though, which could be wrong.
I would be surprised if the "main" romance was an NPC. Like, really surprised. My gut feeling is towards it being Solas, but it's basically the same reason people think Cassandra, he's gotten so much early coverage. If the Venatori plot is more substantial than we realize to the main arc, I could see it being Dorian.
This hinges on the fact that I'll be surprised if Solas and Dorian aren't the LIs, though, which could be wrong.
I very desperately hope you are right 
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