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[Maria Caliban]

A hope for f/f romances: Nothing like the Anders romance.

I get that some people love him, but when you have a character who straight-up tries to murder a helpless girl because he's momentarily delusional, I think that's sort of a kick to the head to anyone who's fallen for him. I know people love the Andersmance but I don't ever want to romance a female character and only for her become unhinged, lose control of herself, and become a constant danger to people around her.

[Grieving Natashina]

2. Everyone and their brother remembers David saying something, which always supports their position, but they don't have a link to it. Most of the time they're remembering something another poster claimed David said or misread his post.

 

Phoenix is right and I have the link for them.  I remember that thread:

 

http://forum.bioware.../#entry16397198

 

At the root of the concern is the insistence of some players that their perception dictates the fact. For instance, if someone doesn't come out and state outright that they're attracted to members of the same gender, then they're heterosexual by default...and them stating differently later on must mean they've been ret-conned for the player's benefit.

 

As you state, the sexuality of some characters was left vague so it was open to interpretation by the player—but some people don't want interpretations, they want labels. Bisexuality is inherently indecisive and character-breaking in that case, since the perception would then be that the characters are altering their sexuality...like a light switch that goes from "completely straight" to "completely gay", since those are the only points that exist.

 

I get it, even if I don't agree with the assessment.

 

Insofar as what we're doing for DAI romances, we've yet to discuss it. This particular discussion usually goes nowhere good, however, since there's a lot of ignorance and indignation that arises whenever the issue arises on these forums. I suggest that, if anyone has anything in particular to add, they do so thoughtfully and with some consideration in mind.

 

[aTigerslunch]

All skippable or no skippable in otherwords.


I dont like Anders and his whining. First play thru I used his healing so I basically made him happy, after that, bye bye ya pansy Anders whining idiot. More often I kill him not for Sebastian's sake. He killed several innocents and couldnt abide by that.

I did a playthrough where I maxed out on killing anyone and everyone I could. That was fun, one time. wanted to see what would happen in that instance, just like origins, wiped em all out that I could see how the ending plays out once.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Oh no no, I don't think of Fenris as 'the gay one', I was mostly just listing skippable LIs (though it IS true that neither of the canonly straight LIs in Origins are skippable, but both of the bi characters are). Is it possible evidence of Alistair and Morrigan's more "main romance" status that neither of them are skippable? I guess I don't want ANYone to be skippable, but PARTICULARLY I don't want the LGB ones to be skippable because that feels weird and like they're once again just giving straight guys who think it's 'icky' a way out of having to experience it. Also if the LGB companions are skippable, then it's more likely that the straight characters are the plot central ones so... hopefully DA:I will avoid that.

Ah, I agree. I've just seen other people refer to Fenris as the "gay" choice, but never him as the straight choice, which has always confused me. I realized after I typed the first paragraph that it might not be what you were saying, though.     

[Maria Caliban]

Okay... he says they left their sexuality vague. This isn't the same as them not being bisexual.

That seems to be a good example of people claiming David has said something he hasn't.

[Giggles_Manically]

You know one thing that does bug me is how bitterly people complain if a LI flirts with them first.

 

I find it down right odd really.

You can say no.

 

I dont see why it matters.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Okay... he says they left their sexuality vague. This isn't the same as them not being bisexual.

That seems to be a good example of people claiming David has said something he hasn't.

That wasn't the post I read, though. Keep in mind that this topic was brought up more than a few times in the old forums. David didn't just comment on it once or twice.

 

But that aside, thanks for pulling that up, Natashina. I appreciate it.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

You know one thing that does bug me is how bitterly people complain if a LI flirts with them first.

 

I find it down right odd really.

You can say no.

 

I dont see why it matters.

The only related complaint I've seen that I think had merit was how a character reacts to uninitiated flirting. Like, people's complaints to Hawke's positive reaction to Isabela flirting if they were playing a gay male/straight female/chaste character. I think it totally makes sense for LIs to make the first move sometimes. As long as you're able to control your reaction, it shouldn't be a problem. 

[aTigerslunch]

You know one thing that does bug me is how bitterly people complain if a LI flirts with them first.

I find it down right odd really.
You can say no.

I dont see why it matters.

Im with you on this. Anders hitting on me? Nah, just my imagination, go away Anders dont bother me. Then he stopped. Actually I allowed once just to get the achievement. Then I killed him happily.
Both by male and female. I dont like Anders in awakening as well.

[Giggles_Manically]

The only related complaint I've seen that I think had merit was how a character reacts to uninitiated flirting. Like, people's complaints to Hawke's positive reaction to Isabela flirting if they were playing a gay male/straight female/chaste character. I think it totally makes sense for LIs to make the first move sometimes. As long as you're able to control your reaction, it shouldn't be a problem. 

That is true.

 

Nothing ruins RP like when the game goes "SHUT UP YOU FEEL SAD!"

Like a bad DM I had once.

 

"The darkness closes in and dread fills your heart!"
"My Paladin cant feel magically created fear"
"Its not magical!"
"But a wizard is making it!"
"SHUT UP!"
 

[Grieving Natashina]

Hence why I said it's not proof of anything.
 

It was David's own words in a thread where this particular issue was brought up. I would dig it out if I could, but I neither remember where nor when I read it. Sorry.

Here's another series of posts by Gaider about this, from March of 2013:

 

http://forum.bioware...xual/?bioware=1

 

From the man himself and then I'm going to bed.

 

All the romances in DA2 are available to anyone. If you're desperate to slap a label onto their sexuality, that's your issue. 

 

[Maria Caliban]

You know one thing that does bug me is how bitterly people complain if a LI flirts with them first.
 
I find it down right odd really.
You can say no.
 
I dont see why it matters.

It bothers me because I've been the recipient of unwanted sexual advances. Everything from having obscene comments tossed my way as I've walked down the street to having a complete stranger come up to me in a crowd and start kissing and fondling me.

I like that in games I get to initiate, it's a control thing.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Here's another series of posts by Gaider about this, from March of 2013:

 

http://forum.bioware...xual/?bioware=1

 

From the man himself and then I'm going to bed.

Also not the one I'm referring to, but it's close enough. 

 

Thanks again, Nat!

[Maria Caliban]

Okay. David said that the companion sexualities were purposely vague, he also said that if someone wants to label their sexuality then that's up to the player.

Where does he say he doesn't consider them bisexual?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Okay. David said that the companion sexualities were purposely vague, he also said that if someone wants to label their sexuality then that's up to the player.

Where does he say he doesn't consider them bisexual?

In the comment I was referring to, which wasn't one of the two Nat pulled up and I couldn't possibly dig it out at this time.

 

I have no reason to lie or spin the man's words. I know what I saw.

[aTigerslunch]

@Maria I was offered to come along on a few hops with girl friends, even sisters just so men would be less likely to bug them. I didn't have an issue with that, as I allowed them to use me as a shield I got a couple free drinks.

[BubbleDncr]

Well, honestly, I think it was a mistake not having Anders tell women about Karl. I think all history content about companions should be available to both genders. I don't think it's a big deal if characters like Fenris and Merrill don't bring up their sexuality because it doesn't pertain to anything they talk about with either gender. Neither of them have an element of their past related to sexuality that they speak of with either gender. To me, that's totally fine and there's no reason they need to force it in. If they write something like Anders and Karl into the plot for one gender, I do think it should be allowed for both. If nothing else, because it sucks that one gender gets to learn more about the character, regardless what it is they got to learn.  

 

Late response, had to run to dinner. 

 

I agree with you one this. If Anders had brought up his Karl relationship with my female Hawke, there would have been no issue. Same as if he never brought it up with either gender Hawke.

[In Exile]

Late response, had to run to dinner. 

 

I agree with you one this. If Anders had brought up his Karl relationship with my female Hawke, there would have been no issue. Same as if he never brought it up with either gender Hawke.

 

The other problem with that is that Anders doesn't bring it up outside the romance. 

[BubbleDncr]

Ugh the "main" romances.

 

Where people tried making it seem like those romances were SO MUCH BETTER because of their tie into the story.

People saying Morrigan was the best romance cause of the DR and stuff.

People saying Liara was the best romance cause of the Shadow Broker stuff.

 

I never even enjoyed the "main" romances people claimed were so great.

Having strong story ties is cool, but not a requirement for me.

 

I think the "main romances" make the player investment in the story stronger, on the first playthrough. I think the end game decisions of Origins (do the ritual? who kills arch demon? who should be king?) are more emotionally difficult if you're romancing Alistair or Morrigan. Same with Anders and Isabella in DA2. But only on the first playthrough, when you don't know what's going on with them. 

 

But I actually think the other romances, like Zevran and Fenris, are better written, and sweeter. 

 

So it's a trade off. Main romances are better on the first playthrough, but the others are better overall. 

[Maria Caliban]

I've noticed that same-sex attraction seems to have some taboo in Thedas... for men.

Zevran states that being with men is looked down upon. Anders is comfortable talking about sex with women but only reveals his relationship with Karl to a man who (I believe) has flirted with him.

Alternatively, Leliana and Isabela are open about their attraction to women. It fits Isabela's personality to be open and honest even if society looks down upon her relationships, but Leliana seems a good model for what a conventional woman might be comfortable discussing.

This might be part of Thedosian culture, it might be that the writers are a bit more worried about male same-sex attraction bothering male gamers, or it might just be that Leliana and Isabela are more forthright than an 'average' woman would be.

[aTigerslunch]

I've noticed that same-sex attraction seems to have some taboo in Thedas... for men.

Zevran states that being with men is looked down upon. Anders is comfortable talking about sex with women but only reveals his relationship with Karl to a man who (I believe) has flirted with him.

Alternatively, Leliana and Isabela are open about their attraction to women. It fits Isabela's personality to be open and honest even if society looks down upon her relationships, but Leliana seems a good model for what a conventional woman might be comfortable discussing.

This might be part of Thedosian culture, it might be that the writers are a bit more worried about male same-sex attraction bothering male gamers, or it might just be that Leliana and Isabela are more forthright than an 'average' woman would be.

I guess for the media of the advertisement to young straight males. Sad, but that is what it looks like to me. Thedas, would seem more open to any in the fact that there is references to m/m and f/f.

[JadePrince]

I've noticed that same-sex attraction seems to have some taboo in Thedas... for men.

Zevran states that being with men is looked down upon. Anders is comfortable talking about sex with women but only reveals his relationship with Karl to a man who (I believe) has flirted with him.

Alternatively, Leliana and Isabela are open about their attraction to women. It fits Isabela's personality to be open and honest even if society looks down upon her relationships, but Leliana seems a good model for what a conventional woman might be comfortable discussing.

This might be part of Thedosian culture, it might be that the writers are a bit more worried about male same-sex attraction bothering male gamers, or it might just be that Leliana and Isabela are more forthright than an 'average' woman would be.

 

Yeah, pretty sure it's this one. But nonetheless, it is what it is, so we might as well get some good story out of it, I guess? I'd love to see a gay male character (LI or not) buck the trend and be open/comfortable about his sexuality (without being the promiscuous rogue trope). 

[In Exile]

I've noticed that same-sex attraction seems to have some taboo in Thedas... for men.

Zevran states that being with men is looked down upon. Anders is comfortable talking about sex with women but only reveals his relationship with Karl to a man who (I believe) has flirted with him.

Alternatively, Leliana and Isabela are open about their attraction to women. It fits Isabela's personality to be open and honest even if society looks down upon her relationships, but Leliana seems a good model for what a conventional woman might be comfortable discussing.

This might be part of Thedosian culture, it might be that the writers are a bit more worried about male same-sex attraction bothering male gamers, or it might just be that Leliana and Isabela are more forthright than an 'average' woman would be.

 

That would be my guess. Bioware's tried to suggest that S/S relationships in general are accepted in Thedas and haven't drawn distinctions between M/M and F/F relationships in their lore. To the extent that this is not how it plays out in the games, I think it's just a consequence of writer reticence. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Yeah, pretty sure it's this one. But nonetheless, it is what it is, so we might as well get some good story out of it, I guess? I'd love to see a gay male character (LI or not) buck the trend and be open/comfortable about his sexuality (without being the promiscuous rogue trope). 

Honestly, I'd still rather have a "promiscuous rogue" gay male than the "gay angst" story that a lot of people suggest for set sexualities. It could be mostly that "promiscuous rogue" is a personality I actually like, although I get why others are annoyed with it coming up so much. Though, it's honestly more a bisexual thing.. because there aren't really many gay characters, to begin with.   

[Maria Caliban]

It could also be how comfortable different writers are with presenting same-sex attraction.

Sheryl wrote both Leliana and Isabela, perhaps if she wrote a male companion (not necessarily a LI) who was queer, he'd be all "Hi, my name is Jack, and I just want to tell you all that dicks are awesome. They are like my third favorite thing in the world. Now... who wants to hear my tragic back-story and learn about my second favorite thing?"

I can't talk about Jennifer's characters, but David's companions are almost always reluctant to share and seem to be holding back from the PC. I think "I am uncomfortable and unsure about these budding feelings" has been a hallmark of most of his romances.