12496 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

0:44 4:58 11:06 21:20 21:34 (male protagonist) That's is just a few.

 

You seem to contradict yourself a bit.  You say that sexuality is a private thing that people don't have to discuss, but then claim that because Anders didn't overtly express as much interest in guys (doesn't he have a flirty line of banter with Nathaniel that makes the latter a bit uncomfortable?), he must have been a straight ladies man and not a bisexual one.  Again, it's been said time and time again that Anders was considered bisexual during his development in DA: A (see Gaider's blog) and that he was always bisexual.  It's been confirmed.  I think you assumed that he was straight because of stereotypes and then found out you were wrong.  That's all.  The character is, and always was intended to be, bisexual.

[Felya87]

Yes Alistair is sometimes sympathetic and I think he acts like that when you see the dream after the Joining. And he seems to be caring guy. What I tried to say was that maybe there are some situations where he can't be symphatetic towards your PC. Like when you are in relationship with him  it seems that he doesn't always know what to do so he jokes about things instead.

 I think it was more a problem of resources/time/writing/inclusion/tecnical issue than really not making Alistair "sensible". After all, there should have been specific dialogue for every origin/race.

Because as you say too, Alistair is quite caring over the nightmares, or even during the Sacred Ashes quest (when the PC is confronted with the illusione of the persons from their past.) all moments that happen no matter the relationship between Alistair and the Warden. In fact, I fould Alistair feels better if is just friend with the Warden, since he feel very caring.

That's make him a little out of character when in a relationship. from caring friend to insensible lover? well...it feels quite strange...

 

I, as canon, I'd like to think all that kind of dialogue was "behind the scene" (even if the "what? you where married?" of the CE was quite bad handled). But I can understand for some people may came out as if Alistair is ignoring the PC emotional state. his romance is a little...incomplete, in that department.

 

I hope some little personal dialogue like in DA2 for DAI. those seem little, but help to feel a relationship more real (be it romantic or no)

[warden6788]

You seem to contradict yourself a bit.  You say that sexuality is a private thing that people don't have to discuss, but then claim that because Anders didn't overtly express as much interest in guys (doesn't he have a flirty line of banter with Nathaniel that makes the latter a bit uncomfortable?), he must have been a straight ladies man and not a bisexual one.  Again, it's been said time and time again that Anders was considered bisexual during his development in DA: A (see Gaider's blog) and that he was always bisexual.  It's been confirmed.  I think you assumed that he was straight because of stereotypes and then found out you were wrong.  That's all.  The character is, and always was intended to be, bisexual.

anders robes is awesome where did you get those

[Hanako Ikezawa]

anders robes is awesome where did you get those

Mods probably.

[In Exile]

anders robes is awesome where did you get those

 

It's a mod. Both of those meshes are DA2 meshes. 

[warden6788]

thanks

[Mockingword]

EDIT: Just saw Mockingword's comment.

 

Now where did I state "I want the characters to have clearly defined sexual preferences for the sake of my own comfort".

 

No where, as I said it seemed odd to *ME* with the information that has been given to see what an abrupt change in the character.  I am very content with sexuality and my own comfort, thank you very much.

 

There is no reason for such hostility good sir or ma'am, people's sexuality is their own private matter that they choose to share with another, and I have no qualms with anyone. But when someone is telling a story and it strikes me as odd I shall and I will point it out. Now stating that, you did not see me mention Kaiden, he was written such as his sexual preference was pretty much open besides his first love back in the day. Anders on the other hand was a blatant womanizer. Big difference, huge even. If you present something as X and it is actually Z without context then yes people have the right to question.

Do you read over what you write before posting?

 

"Sexuality is a private matter, but people have a right to butt in and demand answers if you give them new information that conflicts with previous assumptions".

 

And, once again, you say that Anders needs to provide context for his bisexuality. Exactly what sort of context are you looking for? You already met one of his past lovers in DA2, and Anders explains that Karl was actually his first lover ever. Unless you played as a woman, in which case his attraction to men never comes up.

 

How much more context do you need?

[Darth Krytie]

Do you read over what you write before posting?

 

"Sexuality is a private matter, but people have a right to butt in and demand answers if you give them new information that conflicts with previous assumptions".

 

And, once again, you say that Anders needs to provide context for his bisexuality. Exactly what sort of context are you looking for? You already met one of his past lovers in DA2, and Anders explains that Karl was actually his first lover ever. Unless you played as a woman, in which case his attraction to men never comes up.

 

How much more context do you need?

 

Perhaps all bisexual characters need to have an intricate B tattooed on their foreheads? Or maybe people will only ever accept bisexuality if someone does a mixed gender orgy/threesome/moresome?

 

I really don't see how we need more context than someone saying "I like this". 

[pace675]

I would also like to see more supportive LIs but I'm not sure is Alistair that kind of character. What I mean by that is that maybe he just doesn't know how to support your PC so that is why he acts like he does.

 

I would also like to see that characters can be themselves like you said and not be made bisexuals because of the reason that every LI has to be bisexual so that every one can romance them. However I think there should be romance  options for every one but I don't see that there have to be equal amount of them.

 

I'm very positive about that romances will be better in the future. It just takes time. Maybe not every romance is as good as in previous games but sometimes those things just happen.

 

I concur fully with this, and you will not get any dissent from me. Yes Bioware has definitely upped their game in regards to romances, and DA:I should be the next best thing.

 

 

 

You seem to contradict yourself a bit.  You say that sexuality is a private thing that people don't have to discuss, but then claim that because Anders didn't overtly express as much interest in guys (doesn't he have a flirty line of banter with Nathaniel that makes the latter a bit uncomfortable?), he must have been a straight ladies man and not a bisexual one.  Again, it's been said time and time again that Anders was considered bisexual during his development in DA: A (see Gaider's blog) and that he was always bisexual.  It's been confirmed.  I think you assumed that he was straight because of stereotypes and then found out you were wrong.  That's all.  The character is, and always was intended to be, bisexual.

 

I'll go check Gaider's blog for more clarification (I tend to only look at things only posted on the forums,) Yes I did say and do believe peoples sexuality is their own business. He flirted with Nathaniel? I will have to go play through Awakenings again it seems, I must have missed that. But back on point what I saw was through my blinders on so that is how I formed my opinion, but with what the writer says their intent was is the fact, so it renders my opinion invalid. And this debate over and to the victor goes the spoils.

 

But in parting I do have to ask (especially since that was David Gaider's intended approach to Anders): If he remained tight lipped about Anders sexuality, what opinion would have formed about the said mage?

 

The reason why I ask is because I did not know that was stated fact, I can only render decision what is placed before me.

 

 

 

Do you read over what you write before posting?

 

"Sexuality is a private matter, but people have a right to butt in and demand answers if you give them new information that conflicts with previous assumptions".

 

And, once again, you say that Anders needs to provide context for his bisexuality. Exactly what sort of context are you looking for? You already met one of his past lovers in DA2, and Anders explains that Karl was actually his first lover ever. Unless you played as a woman, in which case his attraction to men never comes up.

 

How much more context do you need?

 

 

Yes I do, and the same can be asked to you; but I'll bite since I may not have been clear in the way I tried to present my point and my opinion (Which is moot since the info given by daveliam trumps opinion: the writer's intent).

 

We start with Awakenings since that is where Anders was introduced to us, with his directed flirty behavior aimed directed soley at women (I am doing the extra leg work here to verify daveliam's statement that he also flirted with Nathaniel which I have yet to find but still searching even though it is a moot exercise since the point has been proven and I in error).

 

Taking ONLY what you know from Awakenings into DA2 the are several leaps in logic away from the Anders of Awakenings, now compare that with Kaiden who was seemingly a ladies only guy; Kaiden stuck with his same old personality, but the relationship evolved into something more or he was bi and never mentioned it but the story itself blended in very well and worked. With Anders there is no disposition no lead-to just an oh my first love was a guy, eh what? This seems something he would say to any potential love interest, man or woman: trust is the building block of any relationship, but it is only for the males? To me it is a totally (well was totally) different Anders that was in Awakenings.

[pace675]

Perhaps all bisexual characters need to have an intricate B tattooed on their foreheads? Or maybe people will only ever accept bisexuality if someone does a mixed gender orgy/threesome/moresome?

 

I really don't see how we need more context than someone saying "I like this". 

 

The sarcasm is strong in this one: I approve.

 

But seriously can fer for the love of the maker steer away from that trope, it has been waaaaay over used by Bioware and now we add Anders to the mix sterotyping all bisexuals as promiscuous.

 

Maybe it was it was my subconcious willing away Ander's bi nature: Maker knows that (I better hide) Leliana, Zevran, Isebella, and now Anders promote bisexuals loose morals agenda (pardon the pun).

[daveliam]

I'll go check Gaider's blog for more clarification (I tend to only look at things only posted on the forums,) Yes I did say and do believe peoples sexuality is their own business. He flirted with Nathaniel? I will have to go play through Awakenings again it seems, I must have missed that. But back on point what I saw was through my blinders on so that is how I formed my opinion, but with what the writer says their intent was is the fact, so it renders my opinion invalid. And this debate over and to the victor goes the spoils.

 

But in parting I do have to ask (especially since that was David Gaider's intended approach to Anders): If he remained tight lipped about Anders sexuality, what opinion would have formed about the said mage?

 

The reason why I ask is because I did not know that was stated fact, I can only render decision what is placed before me.

 

Yeah, I think they made a major misstep by not having Anders discuss Karl with FemHawke.  On one hand, I understand that they felt that it was how the character would act in the situation.  However, on the other hand, it does make put Anders in a crappy situation.  He appears to be disingenuous to a FemHawke by not sharing their relationship (which Gaider has confirmed happened regardless of the PC's gender) and, for some, it acts as a negation to his sexuality.  It wasn't well done, in my opinion.

[Mockingword]

Yes I do, and the same can be asked to you; but I'll bite since I may not have been clear in the way I tried to present my point and my opinion (Which is moot since the info given by daveliam trumps opinion: the writer's intent).

 

We start with Awakenings since that is where Anders was introduced to us, with his directed flirty behavior aimed directed soley at women (I am doing the extra leg work here to verify daveliam's statement that he also flirted with Nathaniel which I have yet to find but still searching even though it is a moot exercise since the point has been proven and I in error).

 

Taking ONLY what you know from Awakenings into DA2 the are several leaps in logic away from the Anders of Awakenings, now compare that with Kaiden who was seemingly a ladies only guy; Kaiden stuck with his same old personality, but the relationship evolved into something more or he was bi and never mentioned it but the story itself blended in very well and worked. With Anders there is no disposition no lead-to just an oh my first love was a guy, eh what? This seems something he would say to any potential love interest, man or woman: trust is the building block of any relationship, but it is only for the males? To me it is a totally (well was totally) different Anders that was in Awakenings.

If a friend who you previously assumed was straight were to come out to you, would you say that they were "totally different"?

 

There's no leap of logic. Anders didn't mention liking men, so you assumed he was straight. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Surprise surprise, people don't tend to blurt out the intricate details of their sexuality to every person they meet.

 

Any change you perceive in Anders' personality in DA2 is not the result of his hitherto unannounced attraction to men. The way he acts in DA2 has nothing to do with his love of dick.

[In Exile]

Yeah, I think they made a major misstep by not having Anders discuss Karl with FemHawke.  On one hand, I understand that they felt that it was how the character would act in the situation.  However, on the other hand, it does make put Anders in a crappy situation.  He appears to be disingenuous to a FemHawke by not sharing their relationship (which Gaider has confirmed happened regardless of the PC's gender) and, for some, it acts as a negation to his sexuality.  It wasn't well done, in my opinion.

 

He also doesn't discuss it outside of the romance with men, which I think is another problem. 

[Mockingword]

I don't discuss my sexuality with people I don't think I'm going to ****.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, I think they made a major misstep by not having Anders discuss Karl with FemHawke.  On one hand, I understand that they felt that it was how the character would act in the situation.  However, on the other hand, it does make put Anders in a crappy situation.  He appears to be disingenuous to a FemHawke by not sharing their relationship (which Gaider has confirmed happened regardless of the PC's gender) and, for some, it acts as a negation to his sexuality.  It wasn't well done, in my opinion.

Anders had a issue because with men they had him with a defined sexuality while with women they had him with an ambiguous sexuality. 

[Mockingword]

Anders sexuality isn't defined at all. All he says is that he believes in "being attracted to a whole person, rather than a body". People interpret that as being bisexual, pansexual or demisexual, but Anders doesn't use any labels in reference to himself.

 

None of the characters have any sort of "defined sexuality", only labels that the audience has assumed, based merely on what little they've seen.

[pace675]

Anders had a issue because with men they had him with a defined sexuality while with women they had him with an ambiguous sexuality. 

 

And that was my point, not as brief an precise.

 

If a friend who you previously assumed was straight were to come out to you, would you say that they were "totally different"?

 

There's no leap of logic. Anders didn't mention liking men, so you assumed he was straight. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Surprise surprise, people don't tend to blurt out the intricate details of their sexuality to every person they meet.

 

Any change you perceive in Anders' personality in DA2 is not the result of his hitherto unannounced attraction to men. The way he acts in DA2 has nothing to do with his love of dick.

 

Nope, since I really do not care about anyone's sexuality; what I do care about is mine, it is as simple as that. Makes life simple and everyone's happy! And everyone is free to be themselves!

 

See above quote, stated better than I ever could.

 

Nope the change I see is in his dialogs with the different sexes, he's starting to waffle more than a politician on election day, and that is bad writing. (Unless Mr Gaider was trying to add something else to Anders' personality and did not quite pull it off) Anders is an inconsistent character and that bothers me.

 

How droll, care to be more crass? You are arguing with an opinion that I pulled back on. With facts provided by another user. Though I do not see how a planned bisexual character could be presented so poorly, others even stated and agree about his ambiguous nature in regards to the sexes, while you blithly ignore the fact that I pointed out that other seemingly straight romance was made bi came off perfectly natural. Anders case seems forced to me, that's an opinion feel free to argue with it. You will have better luck at telling the tides to stop making waves, than change an opinion through sheer force of will.

[Mockingword]

Nope, since I really do not care about anyone's sexuality; what I do care about is mine, it is as simple as that. Makes life simple and everyone's happy! And everyone is free to be themselves!

 

See above quote, stated better than I ever could.

 

Nope the change I see is in his dialogs with the different sexes, he's starting to waffle more than a politician on election day, and that is bad writing. (Unless Mr Gaider was trying to add something else to Anders' personality and did not quite pull it off) Anders is an inconsistent character and that bothers me.

 

How droll, care to be more crass? You are arguing with an opinion that I pulled back on. With facts provided by another user. Though I do not see how a planned bisexual character could be presented so poorly, others even stated and agree about his ambiguous nature in regards to the sexes, while you blithly ignore the fact that I pointed out that other seemingly straight romance was made bi came off perfectly natural. Anders case seems forced to me, that's an opinion feel free to argue with it. You will have better luck at telling the tides to stop making waves, than change an opinion through sheer force of will.

You don't care about anyone else's sexuality, yet here you are, saying that Anders' bisexuality "completely changed his character".

 

Anders is not obligated to reveal his sexuality to anybody. Being choosy about who he informs doesn't make him inconsistent in the least, it's the way human beings behave in real life.

 

The fact that you label Kaidan's progression as "natural" is extremely offensive to me, in a way that I can't adequately describe, and that is why I didn't address it earlier.

 

Saying that some characters "work" as gay or bisexual while others don't is incredibly rude. You're basically saying that bisexuality only makes sense for certain types of people, and only if it's revealed in a certain type of way. Essentially, you have no respect for people whose orientation doesn't fit within your extremely narrow (and misinformed) understanding of how sexuality works.

 

I'm not trying to stop the waves, merely attempting to caulk a trickle of ignorance.

[pace675]

You don't care about anyone else's sexuality, yet here you are, saying that Anders' bisexuality "completely changed his character".

 

Anders is not obligated to reveal his sexuality to anybody. Being choosy about who he informs doesn't make him inconsistent in the least, it's the way human beings behave in real life.

 

The fact that you label Kaidan's progression as "natural" is extremely offensive to me, in a way that I can't adequately describe, and that is why I didn't address it earlier.

 

Saying that some characters "work" as gay or bisexual while others don't is incredibly rude. You're basically saying that bisexuality only makes sense for certain types of people, and only if it's revealed in a certain type of way. Essentially, you have no respect for people whose orientation doesn't fit within your extremely narrow (and misinformed) understanding of how sexuality works.

 

I'm not trying to stop the waves, merely attempting to caulk a trickle of ignorance.

 

Nope his reactions to different genders does.

 

What a friendship that budded into something more over time is offensive, that I do not get. Kaiden sexuality was his own to share if you so choose to pursue him, he was his own person so to say.

 

Reference : http://dgaider.tumbl...tions-on-anders

 

 

We laughed about it, and while it didn’t really matter for Awakening since there were no romance plots there anyhow it was definitely on my mind when I wrote him. I found it a little odd when people suggested that him commenting on women but not men meant he was straight. Which is fine, perception being what it is, but it certainly wasn’t avoided. It wasn’t like it was anywhere but my head, anyhow. But that’s why I didn’t consider it a big deal when it came up as a possibility for DA2. As far as I was concerned, nothing about that side of him had even been established.

 

I provided the full article link.

 

But I will make it short and sweet: It shows that Anders romance comes off as odd to me nothing was totally established till DA2 and it seemed forced, and arbitrary at best. Maybe Anders would have come off better if they had more time to work on DA2. The adding in the details about his "about that side of him" shows.

 

You are entitled to your own opinion. Do I agree with your assessment no, but I do respect it non the less.

[daveliam]

He also doesn't discuss it outside of the romance with men, which I think is another problem. 

Anders had a issue because with men they had him with a defined sexuality while with women they had him with an ambiguous sexuality. 

 

Agreed.  Definitely would have liked to have seen Anders' character being more well fleshed out to both genders.  I don't mind some things being different between the two genders, but I do think that Anders, in particular, wasn't well implemented.  Of course, I'm not really a fan of Anders, so maybe I'm biased.

[daveliam]

Nope his reactions to different genders does.

 

What a friendship that budded into something more over time is offensive, that I do not get. Kaiden sexuality was his own to share if you so choose to pursue him, he was his own person so to say.

 

Reference : http://dgaider.tumbl...tions-on-anders

 

 

I provided the full article link.

 

But I will make it short and sweet: It shows that Anders romance comes off as odd to me nothing was totally established till DA2 and it seemed forced, and arbitrary at best. Maybe Anders would have come off better if they had more time to work on DA2. The adding in the details about his "about that side of him" shows.

 

You are entitled to your own opinion. Do I agree with your assessment no, but I do respect it non the less.

 

 

Well to be fair, you didn't point out this part:

 

"While some people evidently didn’t like having their perceptions played with, it was indeed just their perception. We wrote the characters the exact same way, all that changed was what you were exposed to. Even, yes, Anders. He did not suddenly become bisexual in DA2 compared to Awakening. I wrote him in Awakening."

 

I think that this does, in fact, confirm that Anders was bisexual in DA: A.  Since there was no romance plot line, it wasn't important to the story, but it certainly speaks to author's intent.

[pallascedar]

Agreed.  Definitely would have liked to have seen Anders' character being more well fleshed out to both genders.  I don't mind some things being different between the two genders, but I do think that Anders, in particular, wasn't well implemented.  Of course, I'm not really a fan of Anders, so maybe I'm biased.

 

Really, the only problem for me is that he didn't discuss his relationship with Karl with a LadyHawke. I don't really see this as an issue with Anders not being fleshed out, I see it as a single poor writing decision.

[pace675]

Well to be fair, you didn't point out this part:

 

"While some people evidently didn’t like having their perceptions played with, it was indeed just their perception. We wrote the characters the exact same way, all that changed was what you were exposed to. Even, yes, Anders. He did not suddenly become bisexual in DA2 compared to Awakening. I wrote him in Awakening."

 

I think that this does, in fact, confirm that Anders was bisexual in DA: A.  Since there was no romance plot line, it wasn't important to the story, but it certainly speaks to author's intent.

 

 

Correct! And if you read back a few posts since it was you who pointed it out to me, and quoting myself how odd.
 

 

pace675, on 25 May 2014 - 8:46 PM, said:

Yes I do, and the same can be asked to you; but I'll bite since I may not have been clear in the way I tried to present my point and my opinion (Which is moot since the info given by daveliam trumps opinion: the writer's intent).

 

 

But it seems forced and inconsistent as pointed out by others in a more eloquent way than I (I seem to be ruffling another's feathers by not able to articulate properly to them my point :/ ). I did provide the link so everyone can get the author's full context.

[daveliam]

Really, the only problem for me is that he didn't discuss his relationship with Karl with a LadyHawke. I don't really see this as an issue with Anders not being fleshed out, I see it as a single poor writing decision.

 

Yeah, maybe "fleshed out" wasn't the right phrase.  "Rounded out", maybe?  

 

Correct! And if you read back a few posts since it was you who pointed it out to me, and quoting myself how odd.
 

But it seems forced and inconsistent as pointed out by others in a more eloquent way than I (I seem to be ruffling another's feathers by not able to articulate properly to them my point :/ ). I did provide the link so everyone can get the author's full context.

 

I might have just misunderstood that last post then.  I guess your point is just that it wasn't implemented well? 

[pace675]

Correct, Anders seems rushed and incomplete to me, about the best way I can describe that character.

 

For the most part the characters that the writers come up with seem more "like" a real person each with their own quirks and whatnot (As I tried to point about with my Kaiden comparison). Anders just comes off as a character with so much potential and fell short of the mark and stands out in a story in a way a character should not.