12496 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

The problem is the "complications of the plot" always negatively affect female players and never male ones. I love my tragic Thane romance and wouldn't want an option where he survives, but that doesn't change the fact that two of FShep's options terminate in a way that doesn't grant the achievement. She gets turned down by two other characters; MShep doesn't. FWarden/Alistair requires a very specific set of endgame choices. MWarden/Morrigan requires only one, and even then Witch Hunt can have ot end happily regardless. Add in in-game sexual harassment and rape threats and well...I'm sick of it.

[AkiKishi]

Your better off having your LI killed off since it's closure. That way Bioware can't dredge them up to use in future games. Just looks at how Lelianna has turned out. Morrigan too when you look at long term. It's not like any of the LI's are ever really the property of the player character.

[Ianamus]

The problem is the "complications of the plot" always negatively affect female players and never male ones.

 

That's not true. A Warden who defiles the ashes will lose Leliana, a Shepard who sides with the Geth will lose Tali. A male who romances Anders will still be betrayed when he blows up the Chantry, and by Isabela if their approval is not high enough. 

 

Also I really don't like the self-pity attitude so many take, like not being able to have a romance with the character you want is exclusive to homosexual players. What about the people who really wanted to romance Varric or Aveline and did not like the other LI's in the game? Do they not know what it feels like?

 

If they had decided to do an all-bisexual route as opposed to set sexualities they probably wouldn't have created more than four LI's, in which case it's entirely possible that Cullen would have not been made a romance option at all. Would that have been better for all of his fans?

[javeart]

That's not true. A Warden who defiles the ashes will lose Leliana, a Shepard who sides with the Geth will lose Tali. A male who romances Anders will still be betrayed when he blows up the Chantry, and by Isabela if their approval is not high enough. 

 

Also I really don't like the self-pity attitude so many take, like not being able to have a romance with the character you want is exclusive to homosexual players. What about all the people who really wanted to romance Varric and Aveline and did not like the other LI's in the game? Do they not know what it feels like?

 

Ok, so for male specific romances, in order to screw it you have to (I've done only Jack and Miranda, so I take your word for anything else and if I missing something important I'll add it)

- Tali: condemn her people to complete destruction

- Jack: having casual sex with her ¿? (I've never done this, I don't know how difficult it's to forsee that casual sex it's going to block the romance path)

- Miranda: denying her access to Alliance intel when she asks you for it

 

and for female PCs specific romances what you have to do to screw it is:

- Alistair: anything but picking some very specific dialogues choices or being anything but a human noble

- Jacob: nothing at all

- Thane: nothing at all

 

I guess we're even about letting your LI die (Ashley and Kaidan), and about whatever it takes to make Leliana, Zevran or any DA2 character leave you.

 

Yes, male PC's romances can go wrong too, but I think it's clear that it happens way more easily to a female PC.

[Ianamus]

Ok, so for male specific romances, in order to screw it you have to (I've done only Jack and Miranda, so I take your word for anything else and if I missing something important I'll add it)

- Tali: condemn her people to complete destruction

- Jack: having casual sex with her ¿? (I've never done this, I don't know how difficult it's to forsee that casual sex it's going to block the romance path)

- Miranda: denying her access to Alliance intel when she asks you for it

 

and for female PCs specific romances what you have to do to screw it is:

- Alistair: anything but picking some very specific dialogues choices or being anything but a human noble

- Jacob: nothing at all

- Thane: nothing at all

 

I guess we're even about letting your LI die (Ashley and Kaidan), and about whatever it takes to make Leliana, Zevran or any DA2 character leave you.

 

Yes, male PC's romances can go wrong too, but I think it's clear that it happens way more easily to a female PC.

 

I think you can also simply side with Legion in Mass Effect 2, in which case Tali loses her loyalty and may be killed in the final mission. 

 

Another way of looking at the Tali scenario is that if you failed to get enough points for the peace solution (which is actually surprisingly strict) then the only way to continue your relationship with Tali is to genocide the entire Geth race while Legions begs you not to. That's actually a far harsher ultimatum than any of the female romances listed. 

 

Alistair you can just not make him king, I don't see that decision being any worse than a male Warden refusing the Dark ritual with Morrigan. 

 

Jack is turned into a Phantom by Cerberus if you don't complete her mission fast enough in ME3. 

 

As for Thane... I honestly don't understand the issue with his romance. Yes he dies, but you are in a relationship until the end... and Shepard dies saving the Earth a short while later in most endings. How is Thane dying a 'worse' conclusion to the romance than Tali/Liara/Miranda living and Shepard dying... which happens in the vast majority of ME3 endings? Even the destroy ending with high EMS is incredibly ambiguous as to what happens and the LI considers Shepard to be dead in the last shot we see of them. 

[javeart]

I think you can also simply side with Legion in Mass Effect 2, in which case Tali loses her loyalty and may be killed in the final mission. 

 

Another way of looking at the Tali scenario is that if you failed to get enough points for the peace solution (which is actually surprisingly strict) then the only way to continue your relationship with Tali is to genocide the entire Geth race while Legions begs you not to. That's actually a far harsher ultimatum than any of the female romances listed. 

 

Alistair you can just not make him king, I don't see that decision being any worse than a male Warden refusing the Dark ritual with Morrigan. 

 

Jack is turned into a Phantom by Cerberus if you don't complete her mission fast enough in ME3. 

 

As for Mass Effect... the only romance path I take any issue with is Jacobs. I honestly don't get the issue with thanes. Yes he dies, but you are in a relationship until the end... and Shepard dies saving the Earth just a few weeks later in most endings. How is Thane dying a "worse" conclusion to the romance than Tali/Liara/Miranda living and Shepard dying... which happens in the vast majority of ME3 endings. Even the destroy ending is incredibly ambiguous as to what happens and the LI considers Shepard to be dead the last we see of them. 

 

Well, any character can die in the SM, and as for the ultimatum, yes, it's harsh (though it's harsh regarless of Tali been romanced or not), but at least you have a choice.

 

I give you Alistair though, it's true, you can choose not make him king and that's it. Though, It's not so easy to forsee that if you make him king he's goint to leave you as it's in Morrigan case, IMO.

[Vapaa]

Yeah... God FORBID that the consequences of your choices prevent you from getting laid.....

 

Consequences of what choice ? How Jacob cheating on you is a consequence of a choice ? How is Thane being murdered by Kai leng is a consequence of a choice ?

[Ryzaki]

Consequences of what choice ? How Jacob cheating on you is a consequence of a choice ? How is Thane being murdered by Kai leng is a consequence of a choice ?

 

I guess the message is female gamers should've romanced Garrus or Kaidan if they wanted a decent romance ending. NVM that we don't have any way of knowing that ahead of time.   (Thane can be somewhat seen but in ME2 did he not say he had a few years left? Here comes ME3 and his time suddenly ran out even though ME3 only happened 6 months later? I highly doubt Shep took 2 years to get the dirty dozen and storm the collector base.) Edit: According to Jtav it was a year okay this one is explained.

 

Male Shep has to do the actions that'd get his LI killed period to miss out on the romance. FemShep only has that with one person (Kaidan) otherwise she just rolls a really crappy hand.

 

Not a single one of male Shep auto ends badly despite him having a greater amount of LIs to choose from for this content. Nope that's a female only special. Yay

 

Some of the *many* reasons why a lot of women do not disclose their gender in MMOs or competitive/cooperative online gaming.  Or use mics.  It is why two of my best friends play dude characters in these settings to "blend in" and not draw attention to themselves. :\

 

Hm, so are Cullen and Leliana the only characters to be in all three main games (so far)?  I don't count cameos.  Alistair?

 

Yeah.

 

I count cameos so it's Cullen, Leliana and Alistair.

[jtav]

Thane says he "should be fine for another eight to twelve months." Six months wouldn't be unheard of . I always assumed Shep/Thane was the ME version of Love Story. I wanted the unavoidable tragedy. That didn't make me very popular.

[Ryzaki]

Thane says he "should be fine for another eight to twelve months." Six months wouldn't be unheard of . I always assumed Shep/Thane was the ME version of Love Story. I wanted the unavoidable tragedy. That didn't make me very popular.

 

Oooh alright. That's one that's explained. And even with the unavoidable tragedy Shep still should've gotten the achievement. Jacob doesn't have any foreshadowing from what I've seen.

[Felya87]

Thane says he "should be fine for another eight to twelve months." Six months wouldn't be unheard of . I always assumed Shep/Thane was the ME version of Love Story. I wanted the unavoidable tragedy. That didn't make me very popular.

 

that means...he should have felt well for at least eight month/one year. even with the six month of time between ME2-3, at the start of ME3 he should only start to have symptoms of the illness. not be barely alive like we see him.

 

but I think the worse of the Thane romance wasn't that he died. but how it was all so...bland. romance or not, once on the ship, everyone speak about Mordin, and no one about Thane, that have just died. There is barely a knowledge about him at all.

we get something about him only with Citadel.

[Shark17676]

and 24.4% of people completed a DA2 romance. 

 

...you do realize that nearly a quarter of the player base is quite a significant number, right?

[jtav]

Oooh alright. That's one that's explained. And even with the unavoidable tragedy Shep still should've gotten the achievement. Jacob doesn't have any foreshadowing from what I've seen.

Oh agreed. Citadel went a long way to help and I didn't finish the romance until then (long story, ask me on TCR) but it's not the same as a nice achievement. But I figured from the moment I met him he was going to die in Shep's arms.

[Ianamus]

It's interesting that it's only straight FemShep who actually suffers in ME3. Between Sam and Liara a FemShep who is into women actually has a decent number of options in the game, including an option that is exclusive to her, while straight Shepards only option isn't even exclusive to her, with Kaiden being available to male Shepards as well. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Yeah someone made a chart about how the romances went in ME3.

I was...kinda shocked how much femshep got her options cut down with a chainsaw.

 

Hopefully DAI avoids that.

[Ryzaki]

 

Oh agreed. Citadel went a long way to help and I didn't finish the romance until then (long story, ask me on TCR) but it's not the same as a nice achievement. But I figured from the moment I met him he was going to die in Shep's arms.

 

kk.

But yeah they could've handled Thane's death a lot better (jumping onto Kai Leng's sword smh).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hmm, I guess everyone has their own opinion on how things played out. Personally, I wasn't happy at all with what happened (never romanced Jacob, but I had Thane) and I know that many others weren't as well. I understand the "quest for vengeance" thing, but for me, it's the only thing left of the romance - and it was entirely unsatisfying. Granted Jack and Miranda didn't get much content but you could argue that they were better than what femshep got.
Anyway, this a DA discussion thread, and I don't want to go off-topic

DIfferent strokes and all. Personally I don't care all that much for romances anyway, since I always feel them too tacky and not "romantic" at all. But I actually find the aspect of romances not ending happily quite intrigueing. BioWare should just be careful that they don't let down the pain on one sexual orientation alone. I fully udnerstand why a woman would feel cheated by ME3. But that was the development of the plot and NOT the availability of romance options. And that is an important distinction to make in my eyes.

 

And well it is a romance discussion, so I don't think we are too far off-topic when we discuss other BioWare franchises romances. Consider it us analysing the goods and the bads, and what BioWare should do moving forward in all their games.

[Kallimachus]

In regard to Sera - up until today I didn't really care what her sexuality would be. I'm a gay man, and had no interest in courting any of the gals, so why should I care who's romancible by whom, right? However, after reading her description on the Dragon Age site, I don't want her to be bisexual. I wouldn't mind if she's gay or straight, I just don't want her to be bi. And this is why: In both previous games we've had character who were, shall we say "loose", with their sexual favours. Zevran's romance achievement was actually called "Easy Lover". Now, I know that all DA2 LIs were supposedly bisexual (They were not. As they did not acknowledge themselves to be bisexual, with the exception of Isabela, and possibly Anders, whom I'm going to discuss later. Merill and Fenris were not bisexual), but Isabela was clearly and vocally the only one who identified as such. Even Leliana, who was not as overtly sexual in her conversations as the other two, admitted that she has had no qualms in using her sexuality to her advantage and that she was not above seducing her targets. This all plays into the stereotype of Bisexual people being "easy", or "slutty", or "greedy". And as Sera seems to be of the happy-go-lucky sort, I don't want her to fill that stereotype again.

 

Give us a prudish bi person for a change!

[Fiery Phoenix]

that means...he should have felt well for at least eight month/one year. even with the six month of time between ME2-3, at the start of ME3 he should only start to have symptoms of the illness. not be barely alive like we see him.

 

but I think the worse of the Thane romance wasn't that he died. but how it was all so...bland. romance or not, once on the ship, everyone speak about Mordin, and no one about Thane, that have just died. There is barely a knowledge about him at all.

we get something about him only with Citadel.

Pretty much everything about Thane went to hell when his original writer left.

 

The fact that Chris L'Etoile did not also write him in ME3 was too obvious not to notice.

[jlb524]

In regard to Sera - up until today I didn't really care what her sexuality would be. I'm a gay man, and had no interest in courting any of the gals, so why should I care who's romancible by whom, right? However, after reading her description on the Dragon Age site, I don't want her to be bisexual. I wouldn't mind if she's gay or straight, I just don't want her to be bi. And this is why: In both previous games we've had character who were, shall we say "loose", with their sexual favours. Zevran's romance achievement was actually called "Easy Lover". Now, I know that all DA2 LIs were supposedly bisexual (They were not. As they did not acknowledge themselves to be bisexual, with the exception of Isabela, and possibly Anders, whom I'm going to discuss later. Merill and Fenris were not bisexual), but Isabela was clearly and vocally the only one who identified as such. Even Leliana, who was not as overtly sexual in her conversations as the other two, admitted that she has had no qualms in using her sexuality to her advantage and that she was not above seducing her targets. This all plays into the stereotype of Bisexual people being "easy", or "slutty", or "greedy". And as Sera seems to be of the happy-go-lucky sort, I don't want her to fill that stereotype again.

 

Give us a prudish bi person for a change!

 

How do you get that she's loose from the website blurb?

[javeart]

In regard to Sera - up until today I didn't really care what her sexuality would be. I'm a gay man, and had no interest in courting any of the gals, so why should I care who's romancible by whom, right? However, after reading her description on the Dragon Age site, I don't want her to be bisexual. I wouldn't mind if she's gay or straight, I just don't want her to be bi. And this is why: In both previous games we've had character who were, shall we say "loose", with their sexual favours. Zevran's romance achievement was actually called "Easy Lover". Now, I know that all DA2 LIs were supposedly bisexual (They were not. As they did not acknowledge themselves to be bisexual, with the exception of Isabela, and possibly Anders, whom I'm going to discuss later. Merill and Fenris were not bisexual), but Isabela was clearly and vocally the only one who identified as such. Even Leliana, who was not as overtly sexual in her conversations as the other two, admitted that she has had no qualms in using her sexuality to her advantage and that she was not above seducing her targets. This all plays into the stereotype of Bisexual people being "easy", or "slutty", or "greedy". And as Sera seems to be of the happy-go-lucky sort, I don't want her to fill that stereotype again.

 

Give us a prudish bi person for a change!

I agree with your point (not more promiscuous BI) but I didn't get the impression that Sera was anything like that so far, to be honest

[Ryzaki]

Oh goodie. I can't wait to hear how Fenris and Merrill aren't bisexual.

 

*temples fingers*

[pallascedar]

Ok, so for male specific romances, in order to screw it you have to (I've done only Jack and Miranda, so I take your word for anything else and if I missing something important I'll add it)

- Tali: condemn her people to complete destruction

- Jack: having casual sex with her ¿? (I've never done this, I don't know how difficult it's to forsee that casual sex it's going to block the romance path)

- Miranda: denying her access to Alliance intel when she asks you for it

 

and for female PCs specific romances what you have to do to screw it is:

- Alistair: anything but picking some very specific dialogues choices or being anything but a human noble

- Jacob: nothing at all

- Thane: nothing at all

 

I guess we're even about letting your LI die (Ashley and Kaidan), and about whatever it takes to make Leliana, Zevran or any DA2 character leave you.

 

Yes, male PC's romances can go wrong too, but I think it's clear that it happens way more easily to a female PC.

 

Two things: Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect, talking about the shitty things the ME did in reference to a DA game doesn't really get us anywhere. Everyone agrees that straight women had it significantly worse than straight men in the romance department.

 

Second: I don't really see how you can bring up Alistair and not Morrigan. Morrigan leaves you no matter what. Heck, it's worse. Alistair leaves the Warden because, the way he sees it, they can't be together. It's easy to look at Morrigan's actions as betrayal, which is much worse in my mind.And I understand the complaints about Alistair leaving the warden. But in order for him to leave you, you have to make him king, more or less against his will. Alistair would have been much happier with Anora as queen. The Dragon Age world hates mages and elves. I really don't think you can be upset that the King wouldn't think it wise to be in a relationship with a mage or elf (or dwarf). It would have been nice if the game had prefaced the king decision with this though, so it doesn't come as as a surprise. If your chief complaint is that you aren't given any warning...then I misunderstood you and I agree. Sorry.

 

I'll admit, I only romanced Alistair once, and that Warden made Anora queen and didn't perform the dark ritual, so maybe because I haven't experience it I don't understand the emotional impact of the decision.

[Ryzaki]

Morrigan's loses 90% of it's punch with witch hunt. (worried about the OGB? You'll have a hand in raising it! Want to be with Morrigan again? You can!)

 

Meanwhile alistair still has most  all really of his issues.

[Ianamus]

Morrigan's loses 90% of it's punch with witch hunt. (worried about the OGB? You'll have a hand in raising it! Want to be with Morrigan again? You can!)

 

Meanwhile alistair still has most  all really of his issues.

 

So being able to pay even more money on the game in order to give the relationship a satisfactory conclusion makes it acceptable?

 

I can only imagine the rage I'd be seeing here if it was the other way around and female or homosexual male players had to purchase DLC in order for one of their LI's not to leave them forever.