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#11251
Aner91

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Still though, if he's comfortable enough with someone he just met to tell him that, why doesn't he tell Hawke years later when Act 2 starts?

 

See, I could get behind that logic if the romance hadn't happened after a three year time skip.

 

If Hawke doesn't run screaming and continues to romance him despite the abomination part, then I have no clue why his sexuality would be a big deal after a few years.

Well you got me there lol :). and i also saw somewhere (in this trhead or the other one) that Fenris´s romance was supposedly written with a male hawke in mind? for myself i liked the female romance more with him but that´s just me...


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#11252
Deviija

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[pedant]There's also Sky[/pedant]

 

Well, there is also Diana Allers and Kelly Chambers and several other minor NPCs like the Consort or Jethann and sundry, too, but I think we understand what is being illustrated.  

 

I will say that I only speak within the context of the Dragon Age games when I come at this particular topic of bisexuals and promiscuity, in this thread.  That is within the scope of Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Fenris, Leliana, and Zevran.  

 

Sky was Bi?! :o cool :D, better play a male char in jade empire then, to try it out ;) :)

 

Yes, he is.  There are some hoops you need to jump through in order to activate the romance flag on him.  Getting to romance him, you *must* be rude and mean to all the women LIs in order to not accidentally flag yourself as being interested in one of them, and then you have to be extremely nice to Sky and make the right dialogue choices.  From a mechanics point of view, it is really awful in how it was designed and presented, but this was a long time ago and it was BioWare's first foray into m/m romance.  Oh and, there is a kiss between m/f and f/m romances, but it fades to black for m/m.  

 

Also, I did watch Oz when it originally aired. Quite an interesting show.  It's also where I first discovered Chris Meloni and had a little crush on him.


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#11253
Aner91

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Well, there is also Diana Allers and Kelly Chambers and several other minor NPCs like the Consort or Jethann and sundry, too, but I think we understand what is being illustrated.  

 

I will say that I only speak within the context of the Dragon Age games when I come at this particular topic of bisexuals and promiscuity, in this thread.  That is within the scope of Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Fenris, Leliana, and Zevran.  

 

 

Yes, he is.  There are some hoops you need to jump through in order to activate the romance flag on him.  Getting to romance him, you *must* be rude and mean to all the women LIs in order to not accidentally flag yourself as being interested in one of them, and then you have to be extremely nice to Sky and make the right dialogue choices.  From a mechanics point of view, it is really awful in how it was designed and presented, but this was a long time ago and it was BioWare's first foray into m/m romance.  

 

Also, I did watch Oz when it originally aired. Quite an interesting show.  It's also where I first discovered Chris Meloni and had a little crush on him.

Ah, thanks for the heads up :), and who didn´t after that shower scene :P ;)



#11254
Grieving Natashina

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Well you got me there lol :). and i also saw somewhere (in this trhead or the other one) that Fenris´s romance was supposedly written with a male hawke in mind? for myself i liked the female romance more with him but that´s just me...

I read the same regarding Fenris.  Anyhow, I don't think BioWare is going hide a companions' sexuality twice, especially after fan feedback.  I know a lot of lady players (or those that played lady Hawkes) were pretty confused and a little put off by that.



#11255
Aner91

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I read the same regarding Fenris.  Anyhow, I don't think BioWare is going hide a companions' sexuality twice, especially after fan feedback.  I know a lot of lady players (or those that played lady Hawkes) were pretty confused and a little put off by that.

ah ok :) i for one didn´t mind, i just enjoyed the freedom of the "Smorgasbord" (or smörgåsbord as we spell it in sweden;))



#11256
Grieving Natashina

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ah ok :) i for one didn´t mind, i just enjoyed the freedom of the "Smorgasbord" (or smörgåsbord as we spell it in sweden;))

Perhaps that's the advantage of having a set sexuality?  So a character could be more open about it without having the whole Anders thing happen again?  The PC can deal with it or leave the companion on Team Benchwarmer.  Or dismiss them, if they're feeling kinda petty about it, and the female players aren't feeling deceived like some felt about Anders "not being comfortable with a female Hawke to tell them about Karl."  Seriously, doesn't Anders deceive Hawke in general enough?

 

Just shootin' in the dark here.


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#11257
Aner91

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Perhaps that's the advantage of having a set sexuality?  So a character could be more open about it without having the whole Anders thing happen again?  The PC can deal with it or leave the companion on Team Benchwarmer.  Or dismiss them, if they're feeling kinda petty about it, and the female players aren't feeling deceived like some felt about Anders "not being comfortable with a female Hawke to tell them about Karl."  Seriously, doesn't Anders deceive Hawke in general enough?

 

Just shootin' in the dark here.

Trust me, i´m not a fan of Anders after that "no compromise!" thing, and for the set sexuality thing, i get that people could feel that way, but do people want a set sexality so that they "place" him in the mass media stereotypes and feel more comfortable that way? or so that you can "figure" him out better?...i don´t know :) (btw i enjoy debating with you one this :)



#11258
Gwydden

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Trust me, i´m not a fan of Anders after that "no compromise!" thing, and for the set sexuality thing, i get that people could feel that way, but do people want a set sexality so that they "place" him in the mass media stereotypes and feel more comfortable that way? or so that you can "figure" him out better?...i don´t know :) (btw i enjoy debating with you one this :)

Personally, I like the approach in that is more reflective of the world as we know it.


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#11259
Grieving Natashina

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Trust me, i´m not a fan of Anders after that "no compromise!" thing, and for the set sexuality thing, i get that people could feel that way, but do people want a set sexality so that they "place" him in the mass media stereotypes and feel more comfortable that way? or so that you can "figure" him out better?...i don´t know :) (btw i enjoy debating with you one this :)

I.. guess?  I'm trying to come up with reasons why the writers stated that and it's got more holes than a leaky bucket.  So I'm kind of lost there.



#11260
BloodyTalon

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Still surpises me how many where caught offguard by the fact Sera is for the ladies. When they said wild card and what not sort of was expected it and something about her looks, don't know why just when I saw that image thought yup she is for the female chars.



#11261
SnakeCode

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I just think the whole Anders thing was handled rather poorly. There was no reason not to mention that Karl was his lover to a female Hawke. Conversely there was no reason to mention it to a male Hawke. This should have been consistent no matter which gender Hawke was.


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#11262
BloodyTalon

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I just think the whole Anders thing was handled rather poorly. There was no reason not to mention that Karl was his lover to a female Hawke. Conversely there was no reason to mention it to a male Hawke. This should have been consistent no matter which gender Hawke was.

True on that.



#11263
Aner91

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Personally, I like the approach in that is more reflective of the world as we know it.

 

 

I.. guess?  I'm trying to come up with reasons why the writers stated that and it's got more holes than a leaky bucket.  So I'm kind of lost there.

 

I for one think that this is just a way to give people more freedom in the game. they tried something new (i guess?) and for some it worked and for others it did not. i am so accustomed to play female characters (if that´s an option) so that i can romance the male ( if that´s an option lol). and to be fair Bioware are the only studio that even try and make so many people happy in regards of sexuality etc, so all my love to them.



#11264
Deviija

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Before DAO came out, many speculated that Morrigan would be bisexual because she was the mysterious, seductive "wild card" (witch of the wilds at that), and her being up front about her sexual nature.  Many also speculated Leliana would be straight because she's the "Chantry girl" and innocent-ish.  


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#11265
Aner91

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I just think the whole Anders thing was handled rather poorly. There was no reason not to mention that Karl was his lover to a female Hawke. Conversely there was no reason to mention it to a male Hawke. This should have been consistent no matter which gender Hawke was.

i agree, but i think it was like this: male hawke needs to know that he can romance Anders, and i guess this was the sign? cause i think we knew that Anders was romance able (or we figured it out early in the game) from leaks etc. so the female players (or people that play female hawkes) knew pretty much from the start that you could romance him as a female (since he is male...i think ;) :P). This may all be BS but that´s the only reason i can see...and again i agree not the best way to handle it.  



#11266
Lost_In_Anarchy

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Has a writer directly come out and explained how set sexuality like this "flesh out" a companion more yet?  I know Allen has offered his thoughts on the subject, but he isn't one of the writers of the series.  I respect his views, but I'm still puzzled even after a couple of months now. However, the reasoning used by the DA team is just odd to me.  I still wish I could ask them in person how does a character's sexuality fleshes them out more?  Is it because it's truer to life to have set sexuality than just an ambiguous system?

 

If it's for representation I understand and support it, so I'm fine with set sexuality for those reasons.  I just don't know how (for example) Sera's sexuality defines her as a more rounded character, and I'm not sure how it would.   So she likes girls...okay...and??  Is there anything else that her sexuality add to her character, or is that it?  I'm not trying to come down on the writers, but I really hope that this is clarified further before the game comes out.

Sorry if someone has already said this. I'm playing catchup. I think what they mean is the by not having the LIs be basically playersexual, bringing in the possibility of the hero being rejected in a romantic sense, makes not just the LI, but the protagonist feel more real. I know, "no reality in my fantasy", but do we really want everything to go perfectly for the protagonist?  How boring would the story be if we knew that the hero will always get what they want? Yeah there is the combat and that you could die during it and that your choices would get others killed, but that's all life and death stuff. Adding set sexualities to the character gives them more believability as a living, breathing person. Maybe it affects how you approach that person from that moment on. Maybe it changes nothing for you. But maybe, and here is the important bit, you start to see them as more than just pixels in a video game catering to your hero. It's not just the set sexuality that does that. I'm not saying that at all. If I have read right, you can end up losing your followers because they just don't agree with what you are doing. Every piece adds a new layer and since romance is part of the game, why should that be different? Do we want a bunch of yes men all secretly pining for us or do we want characters that think for themselves and have their own lives outside of being in our party? So many are upset about Sera's set sexuality, but we are forgetting a major component of a true Romance element, personality. Sure you may find her the most attractive, but her personality in game could end up making you want to throw her at a dragon. While Cassandra on the other hand, may make you laugh, have your back, and pick you up when you are down. I point to Garrus in ME. Judging by his appearance only, you would think, like they did, "no one will want to romance a dinosaur", but his personality changed that. Female fans fell in love with his voice, his character, everything. Garrus is my favorite romance because he is the only one who asks about my spacer mother, the only one that doesn't just dump his crap on me, but also asks how I am holding, forces my Shepard out of her comfort zone by dancing the tango. Kaidan may be the more physically appealing, but think of the things he did and said. While the set sexualities may seem like a bad thing to some, think of it like this, you might be missing someone better because you were focused on the physical. Our sexuality is a part of who we are. Not all of us, but a part and does, at times, alter how people look at us. Any way that is how I see this "fleshing out" a character. It adds another layer to the onion.


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#11267
SnakeCode

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i agree, but i think it was like this: male hawke needs to know that he can romance Anders, and i guess this was the sign? cause i think we knew that Anders was romance able (or we figured it out early in the game) from leaks etc. so the female players (or people that play female hawkes) knew preety much from the start that you could romance him as a female. This may all be BS but that´s the only reason i can see...and again i agree not the best way to handle it.  

In a world like Thedas where sexuality is supposedly a non-issue it doesn't really make sense that Anders would have to spell it out for Hawke though.

 

The way it was handled has people thinking that he was initially made playersexual, then Bioware backtracked and said that Karl was his lover no matter which gender Hawke was due to the negative feelings towards playersexuality. 



#11268
Aner91

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'snip' (cause well it was long lol :P)

 

For the record i played femshep so that i could romance Garrus, and i´m not female :P (contrary to popular belief ;)). and yes sexuality is a way to "flesh" a character out, it´s just that they want to find that perfect balance between character "fleshing" (oh god.. :S), and player freedom. imo anyway...

 

#11269
Aner91

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In a world like Thedas where sexuality is supposedly a non-issue it doesn't really make sense that Anders would have to spell it out for Hawke though.

 

The way it was handled has people thinking that he was initially made playersexual, then Bioware backtracked and said that Karl was his lover no matter which gender Hawke was due to the negative feelings towards playersexuality.

True, but for the poeple that don´t know that it is a laid back thing, they need to know that he also likes galande-tupp_12574006.jpg :P

But to be serious i get what you mean :)



#11270
Darth Krytie

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In a world like Thedas where sexuality is supposedly a non-issue it doesn't really make sense that Anders would have to spell it out for Hawke though.

 

The way it was handled has people thinking that he was initially made playersexual, then Bioware backtracked and said that Karl was his lover no matter which gender Hawke was due to the negative feelings towards playersexuality. 

 

But it's not a non-issue. It's just not considered a sin or illegal or immoral for most groups. I do think the general acceptance varies from place to place. It's considered a quirk or a slight oddity in Orlais. Strange, but not bad in Ferelden. Antiva doesn't seem to care. I think it is a problem in Tevinter. Qunari don't outlaw it, but there's a different standard of relationships there anyhow.

 

There is still pressure to reproduce in the human nobility. And overall with the dwarves and elves, as both of them have to keep up numbers as to not die out. Qunari have all sorts of fun stuff with their reproductive duties.

 

So, it's not such a non-issue that Anders reaction is out of place.


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#11271
Lost_In_Anarchy

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For the record i played femshep so that i could romance Garrus, and i´m not female :P (contrary to popular belief ;)). and yes sexuality is a way to "flesh" a character out, it´s just that they want to find that perfect balance between character "fleshing" (oh god.. :S), and player freedom. imo anyway...

 

 

LOL I can get wordy. I'm sorry. :D I agree there should be a balance between player freedom and character "fleshing" ;) which is why the one thing that shouldn't be up to us, isn't. No one should be able to decide your sexuality, but yourself :D

 

And YAY! You are a smart man to romance Garrus because he is the best!


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#11272
Grieving Natashina

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 I point to Garrus in ME. Judging by his appearance only, you would think, like they did, "no one will want to romance a dinosaur", but his personality changed that. Female fans fell in love with his voice, his character, everything. Garrus is my favorite romance because he is the only one who asks about my spacer mother, the only one that doesn't just dump his crap on me, but also asks how I am holding, forces my Shepard out of her comfort zone by dancing the tango. Kaidan may be the more physically appealing, but think of the things he did and said. While the set sexualities may seem like a bad thing to some, think of it like this, you might be missing someone better because you were focused on the physical. Our sexuality is a part of who we are. Not all of us, but a part and does, at times, alter how people look at us. Any way that is how I see this "fleshing out" a character. It adds another layer to the onion.

I didn't think the DA2 romances were there "Just to cater to the hero by being available to all."  That's a broad assumption that not everyone shares.  I enjoyed it, because it showed that a group of bisexuals companions (as well as those that don't outright state a preferred preference) can still happen despite the rarity in media.  They had a variety of personalities, as well.  For the first time in a mainstream video game, I had a group of companions that I could relate to the sexualites of the people in my life.  Of my own group of friends.  Yeah, that doesn't happen very often.

 

Only two people I know, outside of family, are straight.  One of them is my husband.  My other 5 close friends are not straight nor are they gay.

 

I made a post earlier in the thread pointing out that very fact about Garrus, so I can understand about him. In fact, his friendship and his romance arcs (the way it was handled) is something I'd love to see enter DA games.  Kaidan... wasn't attractive to me at all, and I thought he was boring as a person.  The "things he said and did" never had impact on me as a player, personally.  Different strokes for different folks, and various expressions along those lines.  I'm certainly not going to tell anyone that they are wrong in their opinions just because I don't agree with them.

 

Still, how does stating a confirmed sexuality this "add another layer to the onion" in any meaningful way?  Before you mention relationship history, why do would they have to state "I'm definitely bi/gay/straight" in order to talk about their previous relationships?    Or what about a confirmed gay couple, Wade and Herren.  I don't think their status as a gay couple affected their characterization much if at all.  There was (and still is) a lot of players that are shocked when they see the quote from DG confirming that they are a couple.  



#11273
Grieving Natashina

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I'd like to also state again, for the record, I'm happy with the inclusion for the sake of representation.  That is a compelling argument for me.  It's this whole, "fleshing out the characters" part that trips my brain.

 

Thinking about it further, perhaps giving good representation is the reason why the writers used the term "fleshing out."  They want to use set sexuality to make sure that everyone has representation.  Thoughts?

 

 

LOL I can get wordy. I'm sorry.  :D I agree there should be a balance between player freedom and character "fleshing"  ;) which is why the one thing that shouldn't be up to us, isn't. No one should be able to decide your sexuality, but yourself  :D

 

And YAY! You are a smart man to romance Garrus because he is the best!

Amen to your post.  I do completely agree here.   :D


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#11274
Aner91

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´snip´ 

 

How many people react when in a movie or anything else really, has a gay couple in them? alot of people. i saw paranorman some time ago and then i went online, and holy cow there was some people saying that the dude that the sister is "interested" in, is gay. and said it was a bad inflence on the children...screw that he helped them the entire movie, cause he is gay so, "EVIL BEGONE!". we people of this so called world judge people on looks before anything else, then comes the rest. And sexuality is pretty damn high on that list. Thanks to as you said before, Mass media. that is why i love Bioware for making Sexuality more a "thing" in gaming, cause people who play their games need to learn for them selves ( and not listen to every adult that is narrow minded). even if Bioware ain´t doing it for this reason it´s a valid point to bring up.


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#11275
Grieving Natashina

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How many people react when in a movie or anything else really, has a gay couple in them? alot of people. i saw paranorman some time ago and then i went online, and holy cow there was some people saying that the dude that the sister is "interested" in, is gay. and said it was a bad inflence on the children...screw that he helped them the entire movie, cause he is gay so, "EVIL BEGONE!". we people of this so called world judge people on looks before anything else, then comes the rest. And sexuality is pretty damn high on that list. Thanks to as you said before, Mass media. that is why i love Bioware for making Sexuality more a "thing" in gaming, cause people who play their games need to learn for them selves ( and not listen to every adult that is narrow minded). even if Bioware ain´t doing it for this reason it´s a valid point to bring up.

Damn, out of likes again.  Well, I can say that BioWare seems to really understand how influential video games have become in much of our cultures.  They realize that it's up to the big dogs, the AAA media groups of the world to erase some of those awful and hurtful stereotypes.  

 

I suppose I wish they had used a better choice of words to describe the reasoning for the inclusion is all.

 

Edit: Ever have one of those moments where you realize you've probably just answered your own question?  I think I have with the set sexualities and defining a character more due to that.  


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