12496 réponses à ce sujet

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

I didn't think the DA2 romances were there "Just to cater to the hero by being available to all."  That's a broad assumption that not everyone shares.  I enjoyed it, because it showed that a group of bisexuals companions (as well as those that don't outright state a preferred preference) can still happen is despite the rarity in media.  They had a variety of personalities, as well.

 

I made a post earlier in the thread pointing out that very fact about Garrus, so I can understand about him. In fact, his frienship and his romance are something I'd love to see enter DA games.  Kaidan... wasn't attractive to me at all, and I thought he was boring as a person.  The "things he said and did" never had impact on me as a player, personally.  Different strokes for different folks, and various expressions along those lines.  I'm certainly not going to tell anyone that they are wrong in their opinions just because I don't agree with them.

 

Still, how does stating a confirmed sexuality this "add another layer to the onion" in any meaningful way?  Before you mention relationship history, why do would they have to state "I'm definitely bi/gay/straight" in order to talk about their previous relationships?    Or what about a confirmed gay couple, Wade and Herren.  I don't think their status as a gay couple affected their characterization much if at all.  There was (and still is) a lot of players that are shocked when they see the quote from DG confirming that they are a couple.  

True, it is my opinion only and we know the old adage about opinions And I'm not saying anyone's is wrong by any means. And I wasn't meaning that the DA2 companions were there to cater to Hawke because of their bisexuality or that they don't have unique personalities. All I meant was to point out why set sexualities aren't a bad thing. Most people have diverse groups of friends and even more diverse people they work with. In DA2, the companions were more about a type of outcast bonding, so they could find a connection with all being bisexual. The Inquisition and even Origins, is not about that though. It is work. You have a job to do and these people are your "coworkers". Yes they can become friends and maybe more, but they are still at the beginning, just coworkers. In you job you have different races, religions, genders, and yes sexualities. This is why the set sexuality adds more to the character. It is part of who they are and it could, for some, complicate how they react to that character.

 

Gay, straight, bi, lesbian, transgender, cis, queer... all of these are labels put on us by society and sometimes we do it to ourselves, but it doesn't change who we are only how others may see us. At the end of the day, no matter what label is put on me, I am just Crystal. People can like it or not. My sexuality is part of that, but it  doesn't define me. It does however define other people because of how they choose to react to it. Why shouldn't have that messy for lack of a better word, complication, in a game trying to give a fully immersible experience? You bring up Wade and Herren and how people are/were shocked to find out they are a couple. That is what I mean. It doesn't change them, but does change how people few them. It shouldn't, but it does. Not all of course, some could care less because it isn't any of their business whom someone loves. Should a character have to define themselves with one of these labels just to find out about past relationships, no. It is only one facet to their personality, one layer to them being well... them. But if someone flirts with you and you aren't interested, you usually give them a reason right? And sometimes that reason is because of your sexuality. I would prefer to find out in game about sexualities because then it will feel more real, but a lot of people want to know ahead of time because they don't want to waste their time trying to romance someone they can't.

[Aner91]

 

I'd like to also state again, for the record, I'm happy with the inclusion for the sake of representation.  That is a compelling argument for me.  It's this whole, "fleshing out the characters" part that trips my brain.

 

Thinking about it further, perhaps giving good representation is the reason why the writers used the term "fleshing out."  They want to use set sexuality to make sure that everyone has representation.  Thoughts?

 

This makes sense. But it must be hard to fit all the different "Gays" into one gay character, but that´s what it is, it´s a character. If the man/women happen to be gay that´s fine. You can´t judge all the gays from that one character that has alot else going for them, that´s why i think they can´t really represent the sexuality with just one character, since people are different. But it´s nice to have strict sexuality for some characters cause it gives people atleast some thought   (i hope this made sense lol)

[Grieving Natashina]

This makes sense. But it must be hard to fit all the different "Gays" into one gay character, but that´s what it is, it´s a character. If the man/women happen to be gay that´s fine. You can´t judge all the gays from that one character that has alot else going for them, that´s why i think they can´t really represent the sexuality with just one character, since people are different. But it´s nice to have strict sexuality for some characters cause it gives people atleast some thought   (i hope this made sense lol)

It does, and the whole idea could be favorable.  For instance, I have an acquaintance of mine that's gay.  You'd never know it upon first meeting.  He's into to the activities that most people would assign to hetero men: He's into guns and shooting, works on cars, and doesn't like the "flaming" stereotype that pervades media.

 

Perhaps that's another reason for set sexuality.  It's time some of those stereotypes got subverted, and this could very well be as good as place as any for AAA game companies to start off with.

 

 

But if someone flirts with you and you aren't interested, you usually give them a reason right? 

I loved the rest your post and again, I'm out of likes.  But truth be told, for my personal experience as a bisexual, my sexual preference is never a reason for me being unattracted to someone.   Now, from my personal observation, the same can't be said for those that are gay or straight, so I see where you are coming from here.

 

Oh and I wasn't trying to imply that you were saying my opinion is wrong at any point.  In fact, you've been pretty cool about it.  I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't going to be a total PITA about my opinion.  

[syllogi]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about setting a value to "set sexuality", but as a start, here's an article about bisexuality that really is relevant to the weird ideas some Bioware posters have about us unrealistic and undefined bis: Why Bisexuals Stay in the Closet

 

Only 28% *overall*, and only twelve percent of male identifying bisexuals are out of the closet to everyone they know.  And other statistics say that there are more people, overall, who identify as bisexual, than there are gay and lesbian combined.  Which means you may be surrounded by Bisexual Snow Leopards RIGHT NOW, and not even know it.

 

So yeah, when you talk about how DA2 love interests did not have set sexualities, you are including characters like Isabela in your statement.  But you're also denying the autonomy of characters like Merrill and Fenris, who do not shout their sexual preferences to the sky, by calling them sexbots or undefined or vaguely worse in all ways than the DA:O love interests.  

 

You're also taking a dump on people like me, who in real life, is not out to everyone I know, and doesn't plan to take out ads about my past and future sexual experiences.  It gets really, really tiresome to keep reminding people that maybe there are some of us out here who identified more with Fenris and Merrill regarding sexual orientation than Isabela and Zevran, yet we're capable of calling ourselves bisexual.  So yeah, keep that in mind when you're trying to defend your position about fictional characters.

[Grieving Natashina]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about setting a value to "set sexuality", but as a start, here's an article about bisexuality that really is relevant to the weird ideas some Bioware posters have about us unrealistic and undefined bis: Why Bisexuals Stay in the Closet

 

Only 28% *overall*, and only twelve percent of male identifying bisexuals are out of the closet to everyone they know.  And other statistics say that there are more people, overall, who identify as bisexual, than there are gay and lesbian combined.  Which means you may be surrounded by Bisexual Snow Leopards RIGHT NOW, and not even know it.

 

So yeah, when you talk about how DA2 love interests did not have set sexualities, you are including characters like Isabela in your statement.  But you're also denying the autonomy of characters like Merrill and Fenris, who do not shout their sexual preferences to the sky, by calling them sexbots or undefined or vaguely worse in all ways than the DA:O love interests.  

 

You're also taking a dump on people like me, who in real life, is not out to everyone I know, and doesn't plan to take out ads about my past and future sexual experiences.  It gets really, really tiresome to keep reminding people that maybe there are some of us out here who identified more with Fenris and Merrill regarding sexual orientation than Isabela and Zevran, yet we're capable of calling ourselves bisexual.  So yeah, keep that in mind when you're trying to defend your position about fictional characters.

Um, who are you addressing this to?  You sound pretty offended and if that was directed at me, that wasn't intended as any sort of offense.  

[Aner91]

 

I loved the rest your post and again, I'm out of likes.  But truth be told, for my personal experience as a bisexual, my sexual preference is never a reason for me being unattracted to someone.   Now, from my personal observation, the same can't be said for those that are gay or straight, so I see where you are coming from here.

 

 

People generally can´t tell that i am gay either (only when i´m drunk i´ve been told ). If a man flirts with me i can´t tell him to back off cause i´m gay, that won´t work that well i imagine lol. However i can tell them i´m taken...But since i am as i am i would flirt right back:P, i even flirt with the ladies from time to time, and that´s mostly cause it´s fun and i know that nothing will happen from it.

[syllogi]

Um, who are you addressing this to?  You sound pretty offended and if that was directed at me, that wasn't intended as any sort of offense.  

 

Really?  Why would you think that?  I just read the last few pages of the thread, so it's pertinent to the conversation but it's a general address to anyone who has claimed that set sexualities make characters better.  If you want to pick at me, please give me more specifics.  I'm really tired of this argument right now, and I don't have the energy to go back and see exactly what you might be offended about.  I mean, really.  You read that and you're making it about whether I'm picking on you?

 

Edit: yeah, I know this just now sounds offended, but again, I'm just tired.  I want to enjoy this game, the way that I enjoyed DA:O and DA2, and I'm becoming more and more worried that I'm going to spend more time feeling alienated and grossed out by how characters are portrayed, and how other people in the fandom react to characters, than I will just having fun.  There really isn't a lot of LGBT fantasy fiction out there, and forget about tv or movies.  So games like this one are a big deal to me, and it will be a big deal if I can't enjoy it because I feel like the game has gone out of its way to make the LGBT characters, and their romances, more palatable to the crowd that wants them segregated and labeled clearly.  So no, I was not attacking you.

[ladyoflate]

I wouldn't really call Isabela "black". She always struck me as being more of a middle-eastern ethnicity parallel.

 

I don't really see the issue with Vivienne not being an LI, because the Scribe girl appears to be of a similar ethnicity (though perhaps closer to Isabela's looks). It's hard to tell without a good close-up of her, but either way there should be at least one non-white female LI. 

 

The issue with Vivienne not being an LI is that she's the first undeniably black companion, and she's also specifically a black woman and the intersection of racism and sexism in our culture for black women specifically is pretty hard-hitting. If she's not an LI or has no visible romantic attachments, then she comes very close to being the 'strong black woman who don't need no man' trope, as romances are one of the primary ways in storytelling to show that a character has human vulnerability and their own needs. There's also the unfortunate implication that maybe they didn't think she was attractive enough to be an LI, which is yet another common bit of misogynoir (misogyny as it relates specifically to black women. term coined by Mora Bailey).

 

If Scribbles is an LI (which I think she is, to balance out Cullen) and is visibly, undeniably black (because there will always be people who want to deny it), then that will go a long way towards mitigating any damage potential of Vivienne not being an LI/being unattached otherwise in story, but it's still very much not the same as a companion. And she's been rather ignored in advertising so far, so unless there's a big push with her later, it can come off as sweeping the black woman LI under the rug a bit.

 

Please note that I am white, so I will get things wrong, but I am also merely stating what I have learned from listening to people's lived experiences and previous media criticism. I'm very bad at bookmarking things to read later, but I can endeavor to find some essays from women who've gone through it and are much more eloquent than I, if anyone would like. It may take a bit tho, I'm still miserable with this sinus infection and that impairs my already poor link-memory.

[Aner91]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about setting a value to "set sexuality", but as a start, here's an article about bisexuality that really is relevant to the weird ideas some Bioware posters have about us unrealistic and undefined bis: Why Bisexuals Stay in the Closet

 

Only 28% *overall*, and only twelve percent of male identifying bisexuals are out of the closet to everyone they know.  And other statistics say that there are more people, overall, who identify as bisexual, than there are gay and lesbian combined.  Which means you may be surrounded by Bisexual Snow Leopards RIGHT NOW, and not even know it.

 

So yeah, when you talk about how DA2 love interests did not have set sexualities, you are including characters like Isabela in your statement.  But you're also denying the autonomy of characters like Merrill and Fenris, who do not shout their sexual preferences to the sky, by calling them sexbots or undefined or vaguely worse in all ways than the DA:O love interests.  

 

You're also taking a dump on people like me, who in real life, is not out to everyone I know, and doesn't plan to take out ads about my past and future sexual experiences.  It gets really, really tiresome to keep reminding people that maybe there are some of us out here who identified more with Fenris and Merrill regarding sexual orientation than Isabela and Zevran, yet we're capable of calling ourselves bisexual.  So yeah, keep that in mind when you're trying to defend your position about fictional characters.

You don´t need to tell people that you prefer both genders, if you decide that it´s none of their business that´s how it is. And Fenris and Merill are not sexbots imo lol...and isabella and zevran are not representative of all the bi people in the world, like i stated in another post, people are different, that´s what makes us interesting. sorry if anything i said made you feel down...

 

[Aner91]

Really?  Why would you think that?  I just read the last few pages of the thread, so it's pertinent to the conversation but it's a general address to anyone who has claimed that set sexualities make characters better.  If you want to pick at me, please give me more specifics.  I'm really tired of this argument right now, and I don't have the energy to go back and see exactly what you might be offended about.  I mean, really.  You read that and you're making it about whether I'm picking on you?

 

Edit: yeah, I know this just now sounds offended, but again, I'm just tired.  I want to enjoy this game, the way that I enjoyed DA:O and DA2, and I'm becoming more and more worried that I'm going to spend more time feeling alienated and grossed out by how characters are portrayed, and how other people in the fandom react to characters, than I will just having fun.  There really isn't a lot of LGBT fantasy fiction out there, and forget about tv or movies.  So games like this one are a big deal to me, and it will be a big deal if I can't enjoy it because I feel like the game has gone out of its way to make the LGBT characters, and their romances, more palatable to the crowd that wants them segregated and labeled clearly.  So no, I was not attacking you.

 

Sexuality don´t make people "better" or "superior", but it is a way to "identify" people, wether we like it or not, that´s just how it is i´m sorry to say. As for the game i think Bioware is doing the best they can with the sexualitys while keeping their characters intact.

[Grieving Natashina]

Really?  Why would you think that?  I just read the last few pages of the thread, so it's pertinent to the conversation but it's a general address to anyone who has claimed that set sexualities make characters better.  If you want to pick at me, please give me more specifics.  I'm really tired of this argument right now, and I don't have the energy to go back and see exactly what you might be offended about.  I mean, really.  You read that and you're making it about whether I'm picking on you?

 

Edit: yeah, I know this just now sounds offended, but again, I'm just tired.  I want to enjoy this game, the way that I enjoyed DA:O and DA2, and I'm becoming more and more worried that I'm going to spend more time feeling alienated and grossed out by how characters are portrayed, and how other people in the fandom react to characters, than I will just having fun.  There really isn't a lot of LGBT fantasy fiction out there, and forget about tv or movies.  So games like this one are a big deal to me, and it will be a big deal if I can't enjoy it because I feel like the game has gone out of its way to make the LGBT characters, and their romances, more palatable to the crowd that wants them segregated and labeled clearly.  So no, I was not attacking you.

It was a post that was directly after mine, and it seemed kinda scathing.  You made some great points and I'd give it a like if I could. That's why I asked, and that isn't the only take away I had from your post.  I'm sorry if I came across that way.  

 

 

 

I'm not trying to start a fight, far from it!  Not my style.  

 

Edit: I understand the passion of being a gamer completely and a lack of tone over text sometimes can lead to misunderstandings.  I've been guilty of that several times myself. 

[Vapaa]

The issue with Vivienne not being an LI is that she's the first undeniably black companion, and she's also specifically a black woman and the intersection of racism and sexism in our culture for black women specifically is pretty hard-hitting. If she's not an LI or has no visible romantic attachments, then she comes very close to being the 'strong black woman who don't need no man' trope, as romances are one of the primary ways in storytelling to show that a character has human vulnerability and their own needs. There's also the unfortunate implication that maybe they didn't think she was attractive enough to be an LI, which is yet another common bit of misogynoir (misogyny as it relates specifically to black women. term coined by Mora Bailey).

 

If Scribbles is an LI (which I think she is, to balance out Cullen) and is visibly, undeniably black (because there will always be people who want to deny it), then that will go a long way towards mitigating any damage potential of Vivienne not being an LI/being unattached otherwise in story, but it's still very much not the same as a companion. And she's been rather ignored in advertising so far, so unless there's a big push with her later, it can come off as sweeping the black woman LI under the rug a bit.

 

Please note that I am white, so I will get things wrong, but I am also merely stating what I have learned from listening to people's lived experiences and previous media criticism. I'm very bad at bookmarking things to read later, but I can endeavor to find some essays from women who've gone through it and are much more eloquent than I, if anyone would like. It may take a bit tho, I'm still miserable with this sinus infection and that impairs my already poor link-memory.

 

The idea of Vivienne being a LI BECAUSE she's black gross me out to no end.

[Aner91]

The issue with Vivienne not being an LI is that she's the first undeniably black companion, and she's also specifically a black woman and the intersection of racism and sexism in our culture for black women specifically is pretty hard-hitting. If she's not an LI or has no visible romantic attachments, then she comes very close to being the 'strong black woman who don't need no man' trope, as romances are one of the primary ways in storytelling to show that a character has human vulnerability and their own needs. There's also the unfortunate implication that maybe they didn't think she was attractive enough to be an LI, which is yet another common bit of misogynoir (misogyny as it relates specifically to black women. term coined by Mora Bailey).

 

If Scribbles is an LI (which I think she is, to balance out Cullen) and is visibly, undeniably black (because there will always be people who want to deny it), then that will go a long way towards mitigating any damage potential of Vivienne not being an LI/being unattached otherwise in story, but it's still very much not the same as a companion. And she's been rather ignored in advertising so far, so unless there's a big push with her later, it can come off as sweeping the black woman LI under the rug a bit.

 

Please note that I am white, so I will get things wrong, but I am also merely stating what I have learned from listening to people's lived experiences and previous media criticism. I'm very bad at bookmarking things to read later, but I can endeavor to find some essays from women who've gone through it and are much more eloquent than I, if anyone would like. It may take a bit tho, I'm still miserable with this sinus infection and that impairs my already poor link-memory.

 

I was at gamerX last year and one of the questions was about race, and get this: the mod for Isabella (for DA2) to make her white, was the highest donwloaded at that time! it´s just insane imo...

[Grieving Natashina]

I was at gamerX last year and one of the questions was about race, and get this: the mod for Isabella (for DA2) to make her white, was the highest donwloaded at that time! it´s just insane imo...

Holy crap.  That's really sad.

[Former_Fiend]

Sad, hell. That's disturbing.

[Grieving Natashina]

Sad, hell. That's disturbing.

Yeah, that's a better word for it.  It makes me glad that Frostbite is pretty hard to mod.

[Aner91]

The idea of Vivienne being a LI BECAUSE she's black gross me out to no end.

i kinda agree, it don´t matter imo if the person is black or white, either way they should get no special treatment either way...either you can romance the character or you can not lol ( really like that word "Either", and i hope to god i spell it right :S).

[Milan92]

I was at gamerX last year and one of the questions was about race, and get this: the mod for Isabella (for DA2) to make her white, was the highest donwloaded at that time! it´s just insane imo...

 

Reading stuff like this makes me glad that modding will be alot more difficult (impossible?) this time.

[ladyoflate]

The idea of Vivienne being a LI BECAUSE she's black gross me out to no end.

 

Which is reasonable, and why I mentioned the possibility of a non-LI romantic connection. Like Aveline. You don't really ever see a black woman as a 'defrosting ice queen' type, and that's because that character type+misogynoir=sexlessness (not asexuality) in-story.

[Former_Fiend]

Yeah, that's a better word for it.  It makes me glad that Frostbite is pretty hard to mod.

 

Word.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Speaking as a bisexual person, i admit to disliking the "promiscuous bi" stereotype since not every bi person is like that, myself included & it annoys me when so many people act like its some kind of mandatory rule to be "truly bisexual". It especially annoyed me when people kept saying Merrill didn't make sense being bi just cos she was virginal & shy, sexuality shouldn't be a strong indicator of how someones personality should be like

[Aner91]

Speaking as a bisexual person, i admit to disliking the "promiscuous bi" stereotype since not every bi person is like that, myself included & it annoys me when so many people act like its some kind of mandatory rule to be "truly bisexual". It especially annoyed me when people kept saying Merrill didn't make sense being bi just cos she was virginal & shy, sexuality shouldn't be a strong indicator of how someones personality should be like

LIKE X10000!

[Magpies]

I was at gamerX last year and one of the questions was about race, and get this: the mod for Isabella (for DA2) to make her white, was the highest donwloaded at that time! it´s just insane imo...

 

Geez. That's straight up disturbing. One main character in the game who isn't white as the freshly fallen snow (Hawkes aside) and people immediately feel the need to make it not so.

That's even sadder than the fact that the "Prettier Aveline" mod was topping the Nexus boards for weeks as most popular mod.

[Nyneve]

Which is reasonable, and why I mentioned the possibility of a non-LI romantic connection. Like Aveline. You don't really ever see a black woman as a 'defrosting ice queen' type, and that's because that character type+misogynoir=sexlessness (not asexuality) in-story.

 

Either that or they hypersexualise WOC, like they did with Isabela. I just really want Viv to have a sort of vulnerable side and get some love, right now it seems that everyone is hating on her tbh

[Vapaa]

Reading stuff like this makes me glad that modding will be alot more difficult (impossible?) this time.

 

Yeah, that's a better word for it.  It makes me glad that Frostbite is pretty hard to mod.

 

Oh yeah ! good idea ! let's denying everyone good things brought by modding because some people get some bad things out of things.