130 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Nope and nope!

[Allan Schumacher]

If you don't mind my asking, Allan, how recent is the build you have? Or is it regularly updated as development advances?

 

The build I use is at most a day old.  Most of the time it's from the early morning the same day.  I'm just not often going into the game running through chargen.

 

 

Off topic so if you want to have a more thorough discussion feel free to open (and point me to) a thread in Scuttlebut.  But most of the work I have been doing now has been involving testing and isolating VFX performance as well as creating a variety of scripts to help out QA colleagues with assorting testing requirements.

[Allan Schumacher]

Honestly, not really. I mean, the body type is about right. He still seemed about the same age as all the other guys, but maybe it's just because he had that really, really deep voice. I think it could have been throwing me off with him. 

 

I have been told I have a deep voice and have received comments on it since I was 19, so take that have you will (and when I was 19 I was also very slender to boot).
 

[Allan Schumacher]

By the time you put race restrictions in, you've spent more effort on gating the content than you did on making the content.

 

What exactly do you mean by this?

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, it was an exaggeration, but it seems like an excessive amount of effort to spend on restricting content that, in the words of the developers, doesn't really even matter to them that much, and only accounts for a very small portion of the game.

 

 

It honestly depends on the type of content.  If we're doing it just via conversation content and very minimal (if any) cinematic content, then it's probably more effort to add some conditions to lines and possible declining lines from the romance option.

 

If we're doing interactive content with the actors though, finaling time can start to ramp up, especially something like a kiss (or even a hug).  Lets say it takes a cin designer 1-2 days to take a raw baseline scene with basic markings and cues to final scene quality for, to pick an example, Female Human.  But if we're doing that for 8 race/gender combinations, that task is now taking 1-2 weeks.  For 1 companion.  This makes the assumption that no unique lines exist for race/gender or anything like that (and I'm willing to discount this cost, since it's probably possible to really mitigate this).  I do want to be clear that this isn't creating a scene from scratch.  It's taking the assets of a "mostly done shot," changing them for the new player character, and making the necessary adjustments for the differences in characters to account for clipping, synchronizing, and that sort of stuff.

 

To add a condition to a conversation line takes about 10 seconds of work.  Even if we balloon up the self-testing, and do something more interesting than making it possible to proposition ineligible ones rather than simply removing the option outright, I don't think we're getting into that much more work.  The QA work is mostly a wash since this sort of stuff would have get checked one way or the other.  It'd be a bit less QA work in total as checking each permutation wouldn't be necessary since they don't exist.

 

 

Now there's different ways we can do romance content.  We have procedural systems for most of the conversation interactions (and in general have made use of a conversation system that doesn't remove control from the player) because touching up the camera for that many conversations would be just impossible.  So we could do that.  It'd mean fading to black for any sort of interaction.  Any alone time wouldn't require framing the characters in any particular sort of way.

[Allan Schumacher]

ME 1

Straight males - 2 romances

Straight females - 1 romance

Lesbians - 1 romance

Gay males - 0 romances

 

ME 2

Straight males - 3 romances

Straight females- 3 romances

Lesbians - 0 romances

Gay males - 0 romances

 

ME 3

Straight males - 6 romances

Straight females - 3 romances

Lesbians - 3 romances

Gay males - 2 romances

 

* Not counting "flings" that don't count towards the romance achievements

 

I'd probably drop the numbers somewhat since this (if I'm not mistaken) ends up including returning characters.

[Allan Schumacher]

Okay, seriously, HOW? Because people keep saying this and then never elaborating.

 

I remember seeing quite a collection of bisexual people that absolutely hated the term (and got on David about it since they felt it was his term) because they felt that it was disparaging towards bisexuals and in some cases peopled considered any attempt at being ambiguous or leaving it open to interpretation constituted erasure.

 

I think it goes back to representation issues.

[Allan Schumacher]

It's also why I don't like calling the DA2 romances 'bi' (aside from Izzy). I just do it for the sake of simplicity.

 

It's actually why I prefer to call them bisexual now, actually.

[Allan Schumacher]

Well.

 

I disagree with those people. Politely.

 

 

Interesting.

 

Could you elaborate?

 

 

My understanding is that bisexual people (at least those that were upset) have a history of dealing with judgment of their bisexuality meaning "they haven't picked a side yet" or, worse yet, that they are being "greedy" or a host of other pejoratives.

 

By making them ambiguous, and hence open to interpretation, it comes across as more of the same: these characters aren't truly bisexual but rather simply picking a side when Hawke comes around.

 

I actually don't entirely agree with the feelings of being outraged, but I also acknowledge that I don't care about romance content as much, nor do I have issues with representation or having my sexual orientation dismissed/erased.  The idea of representation, however, is something I feel I can empathize with and understand reasonably more.  It's easy for me to imagine "I bet I'd be disappointed if my orientation almost never came up... especially in a positive way." 

 

I wasn't always this way, but part of it was also a squicky feeling of people that feel that is able to insulate themselves from different orientations because I think being presented with positive examples of different people has a positive socializing effect.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I actually considered it a positive for myself which is in part why I now feel this way too.  Though that's my own bias which undoubtedly won't apply for everyone.

[Allan Schumacher]

I actually think that it is my business. If my partner has a sexual identity they're keeping from me, it's because they don't feel comfortable being completely open with me. Which is a problem in a relationship.

 

What if they aren't keeping it from you, but rather just didn't think it'd be important?

[Allan Schumacher]

I think playersexual is technically the more accurate term when we have no real indication of whether a character is in fact bisexual. I can see how it might sound offending to some, but I really just can't think of those types of romances as truly bisexual.

 

And I can totally understand that if I were bisexual, you telling me that I'm not "truly bisexual" because you've no indication that I am in fact bisexual is a hugely problematic thing for me.  It is precisely why I decided to refer to the DA2 companions bisexual.

 

I guess it's safe to say that I identify more strongly with the idea "because they don't say it, doesn't mean they aren't" than the idea "because it's not made obvious, I am free to assume what I want."

[Allan Schumacher]

Allan... you're not a video game character lol And s/he didn't tell you that.

 

Not explicitly, no.

 

But when someone makes the statement "Their bisexuality needs to be obvious otherwise they aren't truly bisexual" it comes across as "if it's not clearly shown that someone is bisexual, then they aren't bisexual."

 

And I have seen people state the opinion, on this very board, that bisexuality isn't real it's just that someone hasn't chosen a side yet.

 

If I tell you that someone has been married in a monogamous relationship with a woman for 20 years, are you going to tell me that that person isn't truly bisexual because you've seen no indication of them being bisexual for those 20 years?  I wouldn't.

 

And I think I can understand how it can be a frustrating thing if someone has spent their entire life having to convince people that they are in fact bisexual and they come on to a message board to discuss their favourite bisexual character and see a whole bunch of people say "they are not bisexual they are playersexual" or "there is nothing that happens that makes them truly bisexual."

 

 

And yes, I feel that if you're making that statement about a video game character, based solely on the idea "because it's not made clear," is an almost identical position and one that makes me uncertain if that's fair or accurate.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm getting confused. No, if it's not stated in lore that a character is bisexual then I don't just assume they're bisexual. If it's not stated in lore that they're straight or gay, then I don't assume they're straight or gay.

No, of course not; why on earth would you assume I'd think that?

 

Oh yes, as I said earlier, I can certainly see how it might be offensive to bi folks.

I think at this point it's best to agree to disagree.  I'm seeing a disconnect somewhere in our conversation because I never said that you should assume that a character is a bisexual, nor did I say you should assume that a character is straight nor gay.

I don't make the same distinction between someone saying "If I don't see anything that tells me they are bisexual, then there's no reason to think that they are bisexual" as being different between video game characters or actual people. Especially when evidence CAN be shown that they ARE bisexual (all the companions in DA2 are capable of having sex with any gender character). Especially within context of referring to the fanbase as a whole, and not just the perspectives that you possess yourself.

I think this is in large part because we also have different perceptions on video game stories and the amount of freedom to craft, specifically, the narrative that you want for the entire game. I have had this discussion in different contexts with people (usually around player choice, and whether that means that the player should be able to choose a narrative path that they want and if that freedom isn't provided, then we have done them a disservice - it spawned out of ME3 ending discussion).

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean here, to be honest. The sentence doesn't make sense.

 

Because when I see people saying that a person isn't bisexual unless it's clearly shown, I see it as us providing opportunity for people to deny that a character is bisexual and it's often done for reasons that I find very uncomfortable.  Note that this does NOT mean that when I see you saying that, it makes me uncomfortable.  But you're not the only person that says stuff like that.  I've been reasonably active on the boards since March 2012, and I've seen countless arguments from countless people on all sides of the argument.  I'm much, MUCH more firmly against "everyone being bisexual is unrealistic" (since it's neither everyone, nor do I consider it sufficiently improbably that it's not "realistic") types of defenses for playersexuality.

 

I think I can understand why you don't see it the same way (since you see it as losing out on the opportunity to write your own story where in one playthrough, a character can be straight/gay/bi and that's an awesome freedom that you love), but I've seen and heard people get upset about it that I can appreciate their cries to not provide people with options for erasure.  Sorry.

[Allan Schumacher]

Okay. David said that the companion sexualities were purposely vague, he also said that if someone wants to label their sexuality then that's up to the player.

Where does he say he doesn't consider them bisexual?

 

I'm going to have to agree with Maria.  I read both of the comments as being deliberately vague.  Almost like David refuses to share how he feels the characters are since he is kind of against the idea of mandating that they require explicit declaration because it would satisfy some group of people and provide ammunition that they are correct and others are wrong.

 

(I do believe that there will be people that take my position on this and will state that it's obviously the truth and will use it to win arguments on the internet because winning arguments on the internet is important for some people).

[Allan Schumacher]

One question: How?  Seriously, how would that be ammo?  I'm not trying to be a pain here, I really don't understand.

 

Whether it be here, or elsewhere on the forum, but "Word of Dev" to trump arguments isn't exactly something that is uncommon, in my experience.  People like being right and Gaider being clear on a position like this would, in my opinion, mean that some (not all) people that want to be vindicated on this particular perspective would be able to tell other people that their understanding is wrong.

 

I mean, there are already arguments (and not the friendly disagreement kinds...) that happen based on this sort of stuff.  It spawns forth all sorts of fun stuff like "playersexual is just pandering to players and weakens characters by having their sexual interests bow to the whims of the player" (I'm sure some of these people would love to see an official declaration from a writer so that they can feel right and let others that feel otherwise know they're wrong).  How many people that have gotten on our case for the erasure of bisexuality would just love to have an official declaration that their ire is justified?

 

I've seen people state that by entertaining the idea of "playersexuality" at all that we areerasing bisexuality by allowing people that don't feel comfortable with it to tell themselves that the characters are not bisexual.

[Allan Schumacher]

**** my diet.

 

I picked up some donuts on the way home because dammit I deserved them.  And they were delicious.

[Allan Schumacher]

I believe it is more the former than the latter.  Sloppy.

 

Doesn't Tali have some FemShep romance lines too?  Kaidan and Ash have same-sex dialogue.  Thane has unused audio files as well with DudeShep.  I thought part of it was because the scripts are read by Hale and Meer from cover to cover, and they read each LI's romance scene, regardless of whether that LI is going to be gender-gated/straight and if they need those dialogue lines.  

 

Complete with Mark Meer saying "But I'm a woman" I believe.

[Allan Schumacher]

That actually is kinda funny.

 

I really wonder why they cut it from Mass Effect, when Jade Empire had two bi characters out of three for LI?

Jade Empire came first IIRC. 

 

It wasn't cut.  The lines just weren't flagged to be recorded only for FemShep.

[Allan Schumacher]

I did hear that they have both VA record the lines regardless of how the romance might end up

 

If you listen to the Nerd Appropriate podcast about LGBT content from PAX Prime, here you will hear them talk about.

 

Go to 36 minutes roughly.

 

(paraphrased)

Luke "There are lines where the Male Shepard has romantic lines for Kaiden... not because they were written for them to say but because they weren't flagged to be female only."

Patrick: "I don't think we could flag female only. I think we were just so paranoid that a line would be missed that we agreed to just have them record all the lines."

 

 

It might not be the case for the later games.  Luke specifically mentioned the first game, so it could be a case where we are both correct? (assuming the lines are recorded for ME3 too).

[Allan Schumacher]

Nope the change I see is in his dialogs with the different sexes, he's starting to waffle more than a politician on election day, and that is bad writing. (Unless Mr Gaider was trying to add something else to Anders' personality and did not quite pull it off) Anders is an inconsistent character and that bothers me.

 

Just curious, is it possible that you're making assumptions about how a bisexual person should behave, and that those assumptions may not actually be universally correct for all bisexuals (or even many)?

[Allan Schumacher]

Since the announcement of "Dragon Age: Inqusition", the majority of the hype has been around homosexuality, lesbian, and gay relationships. As a result of overemphasising the hemosexual aspects of "Dragon Age: Inqusition", BioWare has inadvertantly caused it to overshadow the game's other attributes. Even though there are threads about skill trees, customization, and storytelling, the only thing that comes to mind is that "Dragon Age: Inqusition" is about forming gay relationships.

 

This hype comes from the fan base.

 

And from our perspective our marketing so far as been pretty light.  Mostly teases and stuff more attuned to people already avidly following the game.

[Allan Schumacher]

Not from my perspective. I will just leave it on that note.

 

What marketing materials have you even seen for Dragon Age: Inquisition?  Which ones, specifically, point out the focus on alternative lifestyle?

 

I think perhaps you're overstating my interactions with the fanbase?  Because one of the primary reasons I linger in those threads is because they are notorious for turning into heated battles.

 

 

If you're not feeling included as a heterosexual gamer, this could be because you're so used to being exclusively focused on that any focus that isn't catered to you seems like a loss of attention.

 

 

Jade Empire had a 3some which was hard to pull off.

 

Well, there's DAO's foursome....

 

I'm not sure if getting the threesome is a particularly compelling measurement for "romance difficulty" (I haven't considered any of the romances particularly difficult, though I would say BG2's were the "most" difficult)

[Allan Schumacher]

As one of the developers had said, the fanbase had caused the hype to revolve around homosexuality. "Dragon Age: Inquisition's" advertising should be based upon game mechanics, skills, character customization, storytelling, etc... During the course of the past year, the main theme behind interviews and fan raves have revolved around homosexuality. While I have no problem with the inclusion of gay characters, I wish the hype focused on other game aspects.

 

At this point you're taking my words out of context.

 

You made the claim that we've been hyping homosexual content more than anything else.  The reality is we haven't really been hyping very much at all.  You do not get to then take your original error and leverage the suggestion that I made that any hype you see is coming from the fanbase, and turn it around for your own end.

 

Right now fans are mostly talking about romances because that's something they can speculate about because they have an idea who the characters are.  By the very nature this content will bias itself to including homosexual/bisexual discussion because that's where it's relevant.  It won't come up during discussion about combat mechanics, or areas to explore.

 

 

If you feel the game doesn't cater to you, then you'll either remain feeling left out or we'll do something in the several months between now and release to convince you otherwise.

 

Remember how you feel, however, because it's how marginalized groups feel all the time.  So now you know how it feels, so you can understand when the omissions come up in other games that don't feature as much non-heterosexual content.

 

 

Until BioWare releases more about the game, I think the problem will continue to exist.

 

I don't consider it a problem.  We've a long time to go before release.  Heck, our marketing push probably won't even have really started until E3 and beyond.

[Allan Schumacher]

Removed a lot of posts as I got caught up.

 

I do not believe that anyone has any outrage towards people that are heterosexual.  I believe this because I'm heterosexual and I haven't seen anything that could be construed as disliking me or my taste in games because I'm heterosexual.

 

 

Discussions about what is or is not creepy in flirting should be taken to PMs.  Note that PMs support multiple people, so you can all include each other in the thread.

 

 

Those that have turned the thread back on topic may treat themselves to a donut.

[Allan Schumacher]

That's not the issue.

 

People were mad that they got Rivalry points for turning Anders down, which was the game saying that you need to romance the guy to get friendship points.

 

Which you know, shouldn't happen.

 

I'd be more amenable to this situation if it wasn't a situation where recovering from the rivalry points was trivially easy.

 

If we had masked the friendship/rivalry system, I doubt anyone would have cared, even if the game logic was still the same.

 

 

Plus there's ways to get through it where no rivalry points are created.