12503 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob from Accounting]

Secondly, the idea that these things have no meaning because there's no objective, mathematical law of nature that spells out 'white hats equals good guys' carved into the very fabric of the universe and digits of pi is just stupid. It may surprise you to learn that nothing exists in a story which is objectively carved into the universe. All things that a story depends on fall back on human interpretation.

[Mockingword]

Ridiculous.

 

First of all, this 'meaning' is never solid fact and never needs to be, despite what you might think. It works perfectly well as an assumption. We assume the cowboy with the white hat is good, and are justified in doing so, but if he turns out evil, is there a problem? Of course not. We readjust our views and the story continues. There's no mental breakdown from the assumption changing as you seem to think. There's no fault or problem at all. Stories do this all the time.

 

It's the same as a court of law, really. We assume someone is innocent at the beginning, but there is utterly no obligation to stick to that assumption and utterly no problem whatsoever in having it overturned.

It's a problem, because that assumption carries over into real life.

 

Can you honestly not think of a single example in all of human history where the erroneous association of light colours with goodness and dark colours with delinquency created problems for somebody?

[Mockingword]

Secondly, the idea that these things have no meaning because there's no objective, mathematical law of nature that spells out 'white hats equals good guys' carved into the very fabric of the universe and digits of pi is just stupid. It may surprise you to learn that nothing exists in a story which is objectively carved into the universe. All things that a story depends on fall back on human interpretation.

I know that very well? I've spent five years of my life talking about it? That's exactly why I'm saying they shouldn't be used?

 

That doesn't change the fact that relying on them is lazy. Coasting on the cliches established by earlier writers and failing to challenge or encourage critical thought about them is pretty much the exact definition of lazy.

[Bob from Accounting]

It does carry over to real life. And the lesson to take away is to avoid Unfortunate Implications in the stories you tell. Instead of demanding the meaning within stories is void because it falls back on human interpretation.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's a problem, because that assumption carries over into real life.

 

Can you honestly not think of a single example in all of human history where the association of light colours with goodness and dark colours with delinquency created problems for somebody?

Yin-Yang. The whole "light can't exist without dark and dark can't exist without light".

[Mockingword]

Yin-Yang. The whole "light can't exist without dark and dark can't exist without light".

Okaaaaaay.

 

So which one is the bad one? Dark or light?

[Wolfen09]

Who's to say they are lazy?  I think they add the stereotypes in because people expect it...  its marketing...  if you add in something that the consumer is unfamiliar with its possible it might not work, so take the known route with the stereotype and have a safer pick...  It may be lazy in your eyes, but i see it as intelligent marketing

[Bob from Accounting]

I know that very well? I've spent five years of my life talking about it? That's exactly why I'm saying they shouldn't be used?

 

That doesn't change the fact that relying on them is lazy. Coasting on the cliches established by earlier writers and failing to challenge or encourage critical thought about them is pretty much the exact definition of lazy.

 

You obviously don't know it, because you don't seem to grasp how flimsy your reasoning is. Every theme, every moral, every conflict every told in any story ever told is probably going to be rooted somewhat in culture and human interpretation. You don't get to cherry pick this one element and demand it be purged on the reasoning that it's rooted in human interpretation and leave everything else behind.

 

What's lazy is your argument. You're attempting to fit the evidence and the facts to the conclusion you've already made. That this process hurts people, and that's a no-no, so it's gotta go, hell or high water. So you're attempting to make up reasoning why this is bad storytelling.

 

This is not bad storytelling. It's elegant, in fact.

[Mockingword]

It does carry over to real life. And the lesson to take away is to avoid Unfortunate Implications in the stories you tell. Instead of demanding the meaning within stories is void because it falls back on human interpretation.

Meaning is void. Or rather, all meanings are equally valid, which is the same thing.

 

Since the 'unfortunate implication' only exists because of those internal associations, how else are you supposed to 'avoid' them, if not by actively critiquing them?

[Mockingword]

Who's to say they are lazy?  I think they add the stereotypes in because people expect it...  its marketing...  if you add in something that the consumer is unfamiliar with its possible it might not work, so take the known route with the stereotype and have a safer pick...  It may be lazy in your eyes, but i see it as intelligent marketing

Yeah, so? Intelligent marketing often relies on being lazy and unchallenging.

[Divine Justinia V]

I feel like this thread is going to get locked. Again.

[Chari]

Yin-Yang. The whole "light can't exist without dark and dark can't exist without light".

Plenty of asian cultures and cultures which exist in mountainious and desert-ey regions associate dark and night with peace, feminity and even safety, while light, white and sunlight are symbols of musculinity, death and danger

As many linguists may say, thought and language are inseparatable and influence each other. Our life influence the language, the language influence out life 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Okaaaaaay.

 

So which one is the bad one? Dark or light?

I actually misread your question. I thought you were asking for an example where color association did not lead to problems rather than did. 

[Chari]

Okaaaaaay.

 

So which one is the bad one? Dark or light?

...Seriously?.. It is a very common concept

Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity, and nighttime.

Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and aggressive; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime.

[Bob from Accounting]

You're critiquing them on an absurd basis. You're not critiquing on the basis of "It's wrong and incorrect to portray darker-skinned people as evil,' you're critiquing them on the basis of 'Stories are invalid to use any visual meaning to get any intended message across, regardless of how trivial or unrelated it is to any actual real-world issues.'

[Mockingword]

You obviously don't know it, because you don't seem to grasp how flimsy your reasoning is. Every theme, every moral, every conflict every told in any story ever told is probably going to be rooted somewhat in culture and human interpretation. You don't get to cherry pick this one element and demand it be purged on the reasoning that it's rooted in human interpretation and leave everything else behind.

 

What's lazy is your argument. You're attempting to fit the evidence and the facts to the conclusion you've already made. That this process hurts people, and that's a no-no, so it's gotta go, hell or high water. So you're attempting to make up reasoning why this is bad storytelling.

 

This is not bad storytelling. It's elegant, in fact.

I'm not "cherrypicking one element", this is me critiquing the entire process. Even if some elements of it weren't harmful, the fact remains that it's complete and utter nonsense.

[Wolfen09]

Visuals are there to enhance the story, and provide deeper meaning...  if you say the meaning in the visuals is useless, then play the game blindfolded

[Mockingword]

You're critiquing them on an absurd basis. You're not critiquing on the basis of "It's wrong and incorrect to portray darker-skinned people as evil,' you're critiquing them on the basis of 'Stories are invalid to use any visual meaning to get any intended message across, regardless of how trivial or unrelated it is to any actual real-world issues.'

But I'm not just critiquing that aspect of it. The harm it causes is just one of several reasons why people should stop looking for bogus meanings in the colour of people's clothing.

 

The main reason they should stop is that the meanings are nonsense.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Plenty of asian cultures and cultures which exist in mountainious and desert-ey regions associate dark and night with peace, feminity and even safety, while light, white and sunlight are symbols of musculinity, death and danger

As many linguists may say, thought and language are inseparatable and influence each other. Our life influence the language, the language influence out life 

Yeah, as I said I misread the question. I thought they wanted an example of where white did not mean good and black did not mean bad, so I chose Yin-Yang since the whole belief is one cannot exist without the other. A single person has both inside them.

[Chari]

But I'm not just critiquing that aspect of it. The harm it causes is just one of several reasons why people should stop looking for bogus meanings in the colour of people's clothing.

 

The main reason they should stop is that the meanings are nonsense.

The only way to stop people from giving an abstract meaning to words, objects and ideas is to strip them all of consciousness. But then we would be simply beasts, thought even some animals have actual consciousness

[Mockingword]

Visuals are there to enhance the story, and provide deeper meaning...  if you say the meaning in the visuals is useless, then play the game blindfolded

That is the dumbest ****** thing I have heard in weeks.

 

Because I don't agree that the colour of Cullen's hair denotes his 'kind-heartedness', I should blindfold myself? How the **** is that relevant to anything at all?

 

The visuals do not provide a 'deeper meaning', you provided a deeper meaning. You created it within yourself, based on things that you, either consciously or subconsciously, associate with those visuals. But your meaning is not my meaning, and it's not anyone else's meaning. And your meaning is not more valid than my meaning, or lack of meaning.

 

I don't interpret Cullen as kind-hearted, and you can make his hair so light-coloured that it scorches my damn retinas, but that's not going to change my mind.

[Chari]

Yeah, as I said I misread the question. I thought they wanted an example of where white did not mean good and black did not mean bad, so I chose Yin-Yang since the whole belief is one cannot exist without the other. A single person has both inside them.

Yeah, I know :3

The thing is that there are many different cultures in the world and while some beliefs and values are shared by all worldwide... there is still a great diversity of belief systems

[Wolfen09]

because what the hell do you have to look at if you want any visual symbolism removed.... it could be a blank white or black screen and you would get offended at this point

[Divine Justinia V]

because what the hell do you have to look at if you want any visual symbolism removed.... it could be a blank white or black screen and you would get offended at this point

 

lmfao i'm out of likes

[Wolfen09]

you dont have to play the game if you get easily offended, just go off into your own world and boycott it while we have fun