109 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay, it wasn't 20 minutes. It was 2 hours. Still even at FTL speeds, it would take about that long to reach the relay under the best of circumstances. Bottom line: no one is getting out.

 

And honestly, a 2 hr burst isn't going to alter the course of an asteroid that size enough to ram a relay. That course had to have been altered far in advance of that by Kenson and her team. IMO there was no way for Shepard to even stop it. It was already on a collision course. Hackett just wanted Shepard there because of the Cerberus connection to take the fall and get the Alliance off the hook.

[SwobyJ]

Sometimes your actions will define you.

[DeinonSlayer]

Sometimes your actions will define you.

Indeed. Does Shepard condemn 300,000 to live their last two hours in abject terror so he can feel better about himself afterwards for delivering a futile warning, or accept that those losses are a consequence of his chosen course?

[grey_wind]

Indeed. Does Shepard condemn 300,000 to live their last two hours in abject terror so he can feel better about himself afterwards for delivering a futile warning?

Even if it got one innocent Batarian out alive, wouldn't it be worth it?

[DeinonSlayer]

Even if it got one innocent Batarian out alive, wouldn't it be worth it?

You mean Ghorek?

[SwobyJ]

Indeed. Does Shepard condemn 300,000 to live their last two hours in abject terror so he can feel better about himself afterwards for delivering a futile warning, or accept that those losses are a consequence of his chosen course?

 

"We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror." - Commander Bailey

 

If Shepard makes himself believe that he tried to help, then he may (depending on how we make the story and use Paragon/Renegade points) be more of a person who tries to help others.

 

But that's the flipside of Paragon that isn't as detectable; that oftentimes, Shepard is just trying to convince himself that he's a good person. And imo at the very least, it can make him a better person. But not necessarily a good one. I would never call Shepard a fully good person.

 

Him having potential friends, loves, hopes, and efforts to assist and save others, doesn't keep him away from the actions he has had to take in order to pursue his goals and duty, no matter how Paragon you try to be. He'll always have that even slightly dark shade.

[wolfhowwl]

There's nothing zealous about killing the batarians in Arrival, since the only [realistic] options are destroy the relay or let all of galactic civilization die. Of course, I don't warn them either, because I don't see the point when there's no way to both evacuate 300,000 people off of a planet and get them through the relay in time.

 

If you were on a ship in system wouldn't you appreciate the warning even if you couldn't save anyone on the planet below?

 

Or if you happened to be at a spaceport at the colony, would you rather have a slim chance of making the run to the Relay or none at all?

[KaiserShep]

I'd rather have quite a lot of things, but that's not a position I'd really consider from Shepard's point of view. Once the system was started up, my first order of business would simply be to get the hell off that rock.

[Aimi]

I always will appreciate being able to play a Paragade.

Only losers drink Paragade. You want Tupari. Winners drink Tupari!

[wolfhowwl]

Indeed. Does Shepard condemn 300,000 to live their last two hours in abject terror so he can feel better about himself afterwards for delivering a futile warning, or accept that those losses are a consequence of his chosen course?

 

Or did Shepard sacrifice the few lives of those who would have escaped in order to grant everyone else there the mercy of a quick death? Were those people condemned to die so Shepard could feel good that at least he spared the colonists the terror of their imminent deaths? 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I'll admit, I never really considered the time-constraints involved with that decision.

 

For me, it was what I'd do with one call, and Shepard's safety really took priority over that of the entirety of that colony.

 

Anyone who thinks to dispute this notion should first ask themselves if they did not convince Adm. Koris himself that his life was worth more than that of his crew. If so, they need to get their position straight. If not, they should ask themselves what good Koris's crew were in helping end the war with the geth, and whether or not they think the batarian colonists (all 300,000 of them) could have realistically contributed as much to the war effort as Shepard did through the events of ME3.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This. That's about as stupid as suggesting an evacuation of Terra Nova in the time before the asteroid hits, or suggesting moving 50,000 ships through Tikkun's mass relay before the Geth regroup.

 

Well, they'd certainly be able to move a great deal of their civilian ships through the relay, while holding a perimeter around it. Granted, the Geth, under the control of the Reapers, are going to be chasing them this time, but that's the Quarians fault. This isn't meant to be an inflammatory comment, but I just did a trilogy run over the last month and a half. The more I look at it, the more I think I'm doing the universe a favor by just letting the Quarians burn. One big race of fail right there. Fleet Mobilization in battle? Horrendous. Utility in ground combat? Limited: They have skill, but they're made of glass. Symbiosis with their fleet? Definitely a detractor. They are too specialized as a race from a biological perspective, and it has blowback onto everything else for them. Biologically, the Quarians are one big failure of evolution. They're not adaptable, they're not necessarily hardy, and, damning in the wartime environment, they are very insular and inward looking as a species. I take a lot of what BW's meaning overall was for them. A bit heavy-handed, but they were the race of woobies who never got a break. And the way BW wrote them, I don't feel they deserved any either. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Or did Shepard sacrifice the few lives of those who would have escaped in order to grant everyone else there the mercy of a quick death? Were those people condemned to die so Shepard could feel good that at least he spared the colonists the terror of their imminent deaths? 

 

For you probably not. I think those people were condemned to die so that Shepard could at least escape and warn the galaxy of the Reapers arrival within it. There weren't going to be any survivors, and there certainly weren't going to be any survivors worth Shepard on any level. My Shepard's not the kind of guy who wastes his time worrying about random civilians. He's a big picture kind of guy, and he knows he's the hand that draws the picture for the most part. I'd ask why you or other people care about the insignificant people who have no capacity to ever change anything. They aren't intrinsically special. They have no extrinsic value. Outside of a wartime condition, I could safely be pleasantly insincere about their existence.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

If you were on a ship in system wouldn't you appreciate the warning even if you couldn't save anyone on the planet below?

 

Or if you happened to be at a spaceport at the colony, would you rather have a slim chance of making the run to the Relay or none at all?

 

There is no chance, period. The asteroid is about to hit the relay. Those people are boned no matter how you spin it. Since that's the case, their fate is entirely beyond the scope of my care. Meanwhile, I can still live, and better yet, I can make a difference. Those Batarians wouldn't be worth anything. Then again, I'm the guy that doesn't believe in any inherent value to life. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Even if it got one innocent Batarian out alive, wouldn't it be worth it?

 

No. What use is that one Batarian going to be in the grand scheme of things? One life doesn't balance 300,000. And 300,000 hardly balances against untold trillions.

 

It's wasted effort that could be used letting the Normandy know how close you are, even if it is a broken transmission.

[wolfhowwl]

For you probably not. I think those people were condemned to die so that Shepard could at least escape and warn the galaxy of the Reapers arrival within it. There weren't going to be any survivors, and there certainly weren't going to be any survivors worth Shepard on any level.

 

Given the need to escape with knowledge of the invasion, and without any metaknowledge you HAVE to signal for extraction over anything else. With the imminent arrival and the situation at the base, the risk was too high to do anything else.

 

In HYR's example with the VIP we are leaving people to die for a greater cause. In that case it is pretty obvious that your actions doom the Quarian crew but that is the price Shepard has to pay to hold the Migrant Fleet together.

 

At that time in Arrival there's over an hour before the relay is destroyed and I think some ships could have made it and we're killing those people. But they are a sacrifice Shepard is making like Koris' men. Stuff like the ships wouldn't have made it or we're just sparing them the terror anyways feels like...rationalization?

[wolfhowwl]

What a complete crock.

 

1. Whoever that was in ME3, it was not Mordin, at least a Mordin that could think clearly.

2. Sabotaging the cure does not doom the Krogan to extinction, it's logically the only way to save them.

 

I could go into more detail if someone wants but that whole article is rubbish and the author doesn't understand the ME lore in the slightest.

 

I-I wanted to get Salarian support for the war too.

 

Am I bad person?

[von uber]

Why didn't the batarians notice a massive asteroid heading for a relay?

[wolfhowwl]

Why didn't the batarians notice a massive asteroid heading for a relay?

 

I don't know but maybe they should have.

 

Having to fight through Batarian special forces desperately trying to save their world from what they see as a brutal terrorist attack instead of just conveniently indoctrinated Project staff that can be gunned down guilt free would be an improvement.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I-I wanted to get Salarian support for the war too.

 

Am I bad person?

 

Ditto. You'd think fleets of ships would be more useful than waves of Krogan. I wish the Dalatrass wasn't so laughably racist and off-putting. I agree with all her points, but she's not bothering to see the bigger picture. She can't see past the general need to beat the Reapers first. 

 

I made up for the loss by saving their Councilor, but still, it's pretty crappy that the game makes you choose between the Krogan and the Salarians.

 

That said, the Salarians got a pretty negative portrayal overall in the series. Personally, I hold their race in the highest regard out of all the aliens: they're smart, they're practical, and they aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. They know what they have to do, and they do it.

[fhs33721]

That said, the Salarians got a pretty negative portrayal overall in the series. Personally, I hold their race in the highest regard out of all the aliens: they're smart, they're practical, and they aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. They know what they have to do, and they do it.

 

So that's why they constantly try to uplift other species for them to do all the dirty work? In addition their "smart" plans more often than not seem to backfire. Examples: opening the relay to rachni space and uplifting the Krogans. Plus whatever they were planning with those Yahg on Sur'kesh was surely predeterminded to fail colossaly as well since the Yahgs intelligence is most likely superior to the ones of the Salarians.

The Genophage was effective though I'll give the sneaky lizards that. Probably their only major sucess, that we actually hear of.

[KaiserShep]

So that's why they constantly try to uplift other species for them to do all the dirty work? In addition their "smart" plans more often than not seem to backfire. Examples: opening the relay to rachni space and uplifting the Krogans. Plus whatever they were planning with those Yahg on Sur'kesh was surely predeterminded to fail colossaly as well since the Yahgs intelligence is most likely superior to the ones of the Salarians.

The Genophage was effective though I'll give the sneaky lizards that. Probably their only major sucess, that we actually hear of.

 

You'd think that public opinion would weigh heavily against the salarians for the rachni wars and the krogan rebellions, yet the quarians are the ones that aren't welcome anywhere, despite them being the only ones that really suffered through the geth uprising.

[fhs33721]

You'd think that public opinion would weigh heavily against the salarians for the rachni wars and the krogan rebellions, yet the quarians are the ones that aren't welcome anywhere, despite them being the only ones that really suffered through the geth uprising.

I know right. Those salarians must have a really good PR- management.

[DeinonSlayer]

Wolf, consider this for a second: let's say you've got two hours before the asteroid hits the relay. Let's say you succeeded in warning them. They don't know about the Reapers. They don't know that this has to happen to buy time for the rest of the galaxy (time utterly wasted by Shepard, but that's another essay).

The batarians aren't going to focus on evacuation. They're going to focus on deflecting or destroying that rock before it kills the entire system. They could potentially call in warships from out-system to fire everything they had at it, killing you or guaranteeing your capture in the process.

Where would that leave the galaxy if they succeeded?

@Massive re: inflammatory, meh. It's clear neither of us is going to change the other's mind on this topic, not worth getting into it again.

[KaiserShep]

Why didn't the batarians notice a massive asteroid heading for a relay?

 

The Bahak system is not heavily populated, so it's possible that there wouldn't be any observatories or space stations, or even nearby ships that would observe any objects any more than a few AU away from the planet. Of course there's no information about satellites around Aratoht, since the Hegemony keeps that stuff secret anyway.

 

Thinking about it, the bigger problem with some of the logic in Arrival is that some batarians are fully aware of the plot to destroy the relay. Even if any claims from Kenson are met with incredulity, it would make sense to send a ship to scout the relay to see what's going on.

 

I don't know but maybe they should have.

 

Having to fight through Batarian special forces desperately trying to save their world from what they see as a brutal terrorist attack instead of just conveniently indoctrinated Project staff that can be gunned down guilt free would be an improvement.

 

Well, we do fight through batarian soldiers when freeing Kenson. Beyond that, there wouldn't be any reason to encounter any of the free population of Aratoht, which is about 90,000 people.

 

Speaking of which, I wonder how many of the batarians' slaves would have been saved along with those 90,000 had they been successfully warned.