15912 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I'm not sure she was being truthful to him.

 

I wouldn't assume so anyway.

Why's that?

[thats1evildude]

I don't see why she would lie about that.

[jlb524]

Why's that?

 

Leliana told my Warden she fled Orlais to escape trouble.  That's incorrect based on what happened in Leliana's Song.

 

So, she likes to stretch the truth a bit.

[Xilizhra]

Leliana told my Warden she fled Orlais to escape trouble.  That's incorrect based on what happened in Leliana's Song.

 

So, she likes to stretch the truth a bit.

I think that Leliana's Song was a retcon, not evidence that Leliana is untruthful.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I've always thought the story Leliana told the Warden to be the true one and Leliana's Song just laziness on BioWare's part.

[jlb524]

I always thought the opposite...mainly b/c Leliana's Song introduces Dorethea and their relationship.  Also, Sketch's existence outside of Leliana's Song (in DA2).

 

I'm not sure what the word from BW is though.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Leliana told my Warden she fled Orlais to escape trouble.  That's incorrect based on what happened in Leliana's Song.

 

So, she likes to stretch the truth a bit.

Well notice how leliana song starts and how it ends pretty much it was more like story told by leliana.So we don't know which version is true.

[Maria Caliban]

Leliana is not so much truthful as she is sincere.

[jlb524]

Well notice how leliana song starts and how it ends pretty much it was more like story told by leliana.So we don't know which version is true.

 

No we don't. 

 

They both could just be stories

[Wulfram]

I can't see a motivation for Leliana to lie about the inconsistencies between her tales.  And if she did lie, I don't see who she'd not stick to that lie.

[Basement Cat]

At times, sure. But it's still a relatively boring lifestyle with a lot of paperwork and sitting around. Which, is apparently Josephine's favourite thing judging by the interview.

An ambassador is an interesting case in that, if she fails her negotiations, that failure is not only going to get her killed, it's going to doom an awful lot of people. As the ambassador for the Inquisition, Josephine has far more potential to make it flourish or go down than anyone else. 

 

Where will you get your soldiers? Somebody might sign a treaty with you to give you some, as long as you help them in return.

Where will you get your supplies? An ally will provide them.

 

It's all fine and dandy to go around whacking monsters, but you're going to need an army, and this time you don't have the 'I'm a Grey Warden you must help' card. Hence the need for a diplomat.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

An ambassador is an interesting case in that, if she fails her negotiations, that failure is not only going to get her killed, it's going to doom an awful lot of people. As the ambassador for the Inquisition, Josephine has far more potential to make it flourish or go down than anyone else. 

 

Where will you get your soldiers? Somebody might sign a treaty with you to give you some, as long as you help them in return.

Where will you get your supplies? An ally will provide them.

 

It's all fine and dandy to go around whacking monsters, but you're going to need an army, and this time you don't have the 'I'm a Grey Warden you must help' card. Hence the need for a diplomat.

 

Never said there isn't a need for her. Terribly important boring stuff is still boring stuff. 

[Basement Cat]

Never said there isn't a need for her. Terribly important boring stuff is still boring stuff. 

Having a boring job does not make one a boring person.

[Maria Caliban]

I can't see a motivation for Leliana to lie about the inconsistencies between her tales. And if she did lie, I don't see who she'd not stick to that lie.

No, she doesn't lie about the inconsistencies, she's upfront about them existing.

There are inconsistencies though because she's an unreliable narrator, just like Varric. She doesn't stick to one lie because not all of them fit with the version of the story she's telling.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Having a boring job does not make one a boring person.

 

Yes, I'm sure Josephine is absolutely wonderful. I just don't see any lifestyle mesh with Leliana and her.

 

Sigh. Whatever, I'll just let this go. 

[Xilizhra]

No, she doesn't lie about the inconsistencies, she's upfront about them existing.

There are inconsistencies though because she's an unreliable narrator, just like Varric. She doesn't stick to one lie because not all of them fit with the version of the story she's telling.

Hellfire, I hate unreliable narrators. It's why I prefer to believe that DA2 is the unadulterated truth except for some of the combat sections, and it's why I prefer to believe that Leliana's Song is too.

[Maria Caliban]

Why do you hate unreliable narrators? Did one run over your dog?

Mulholland Drive is my favorite movie with an unreliable narrator.

[Xilizhra]

Why do you hate unreliable narrators? Did one run over your dog?

Mulholland Drive is my favorite movie with an unreliable narrator.

The very concept grinds against all my media sensibilities. I want information, and more to the point, I want accurate information; I'm not fond of being lied to, by narrators or anyone.

[Basement Cat]

The very concept grinds against all my media sensibilities. I want information, and more to the point, I want accurate information; I'm not fond of being lied to, by narrators or anyone.

Well, you have to consider that the games you play, the movies you watch, the novels you read are all lies. Even the ones based on true stories have plenty of liberties taken with them.

 

Your entire life is a lie!   

[Wulfram]

No, she doesn't lie about the inconsistencies, she's upfront about them existing.

There are inconsistencies though because she's an unreliable narrator, just like Varric. She doesn't stick to one lie because not all of them fit with the version of the story she's telling.

 

Well, she's upfront about inconsistencies in Leliana's song.  She's quite insistent that she's telling the truth when she originally tells the tale to the Warden

[Maria Caliban]

The very concept grinds against all my media sensibilities. I want information, and more to the point, I want accurate information; I'm not fond of being lied to, by narrators or anyone.

Fiction isn't about accuracy, it's about meaning.
 

The story is told in Junin or in Tapalque. A boy disappeared after an Indian attack. People said the Indians had kidnapped him. He parents searched for him in vain. Then, long years later, a soldier who came from the interior told them about an Indian with blue eyes who might well be their son. At length they found him (the chronicle has lost the circumstances and I will not invent what I do no know) and thought they recognized him. The man, buffeted by the wilderness and by barbaric life, no longer knew how to understand the words of his mother tongue, but indifferent and docile, he let himself be led home. There he stopped, perhaps because the others stopped. He looked at the door as if he did not know what it was for. Then suddenly he lowered his head, let out a shout, ran across the entrance way and the two long patios, and plunged into the kitchen. Without hesitating, he sank his arm into the blackened chimney and pulled out the little horn-handled knife he had hidden there as a boy. His eyes shone with joy and his parents wept because they had found their son.

Perhaps this recollection was followed by others, but the Indian could not live within walls, and one day he went in search of his wilderness. I wonder what he felt in that dizzying moment when past and present became one. I wonder whether the lost son was reborn and died in that instant of ecstasy; and whether he ever managed to recognize, if only as an infant or a dog does, his parents and his home.

Nothing about this story is true. It's something the author made up from scratch; he did not hear it from someone in Junin or in Tapalque. A person raised by a group that raids towns and kidnaps children is unlikely to be 'indifferent and docile.' Indians know what doors are. They are rather good at living within walls. It's possible that a boy old enough to hide his knives in the chimney would completely forget his native tongue, but I find it doubtful.

In terms of accurate information, I consider it remarkably bad for a couple of paragraphs. In terms of meaning, it's remarkably good for a couple of paragraphs.

[Xilizhra]

Fiction isn't about accuracy, it's about meaning.
 

Nothing about this story is true. It's something the author made up from scratch; he did not hear it from someone in Junin or in Tapalque. A person raised by a group that raids towns and kidnaps children is unlikely to be 'indifferent and docile.' Indians know what doors are. They are rather good at living within walls. It's possible that a boy old enough to hide his knives in the chimney would completely forget his native tongue, but I find it doubtful.

In terms of accurate information, I consider it remarkably bad for a couple of paragraphs. In terms of meaning, it's remarkably good for a couple of paragraphs.

That's not quite the point. If we're reading or seeing a fictional world, I want that fictional world to be accurately presented, with internal consistency.

[Maria Caliban]

That's not quite the point. If we're reading or seeing a fictional world, I want that fictional world to be accurately presented, with internal consistency.

Good unreliable narrators have internal consistency. Bad ones don't, but bad reliable narrators also lack internal consistency.

When I read The Tell-Tale Heart, it's obvious to me what's real and what part of it is the author being bonkers. There is no booming, thumping heart beating below the floor boards that the police are ignoring because they're bastards. The sound the narrator describes to us is the product of his guilt, paranoia, and delusions.

Well, she's upfront about inconsistencies in Leliana's song. She's quite insistent that she's telling the truth when she originally tells the tale to the Warden

If someone feels the need to insist they're telling the truth, that's an excellent hint that they are not doing so.

[Basement Cat]

If someone feels the need to insist they're telling the truth, that's an excellent hint that they are not doing so.

Or that they are incredibly frustrated that no one wants to believe them. Think Alistair the drunk in DA2.

[thats1evildude]

It's sort of like how in Doom: Repercussions of Evil, it's left up to the reader to decide whether John was ever hearing any radio communications from a Cernel Joson or whether the "demons" he had to kill were in fact people his zombie-addled brain hallucinated as monsters.

 

Ten-year-old slightly infamous fanfics are relevant to this discussion, right?