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[jlb524]

That's literally the only scene I've ever watched from that show.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I know it probably happened...

 

But I'm still having a hard time imagining Leliana using... those... ways.

Yeah, I always saw her as like one of those "Knocks person out as soon as they get into the bedroom and take what was needed while the target is unconscious" kinds of seducing spies. 

[Sifr]

Yeah, I always saw her as like one of those "Knocks person out as soon as they get into the bedroom and take what was needed while the target is unconscious" kinds of seducing spies. 

 

With the occassional mark being tied to the bed whilst unconscious, then gagged, stripped, redressed in a frilly Orlesian pettycoat and holding some kind of whip...

 

You know, because no matter what you stole from that guy, he is never going to tell anyone after being found the next morning like that!

 

[Basement Cat]

I know it probably happened...

 

But I'm still having a hard time imagining Leliana using... those... ways.

Why? *genuinely curious*

 

I think she preferred that to outright killing her mark. It could be that she would drug her targets. Easy enough setup: offer a spiked drink, play around until the mark falls asleep and presto: job is done. Actually it can be hard imagining Leliana being anything but a nice sweet girl, but there were a few lines of dialogue in Origins that were positively chilling. She's very casual when she explains that people's need for approval and love can be exploited. Yet she is quite blind when it happens to her...

[Master Warder Z_]

Why? *genuinely curious*

 

I think she preferred that to outright killing her mark. It could be that she would drug her targets. Easy enough setup: offer a spiked drink, play around until the mark falls asleep and presto: job is done. Actually it can be hard imagining Leliana being anything but a nice sweet girl, but there were a few lines of dialogue in Origins that were positively chilling. She's very casual when she explains that people's need for approval and love can be exploited. Yet she is quite blind when it happens to her...

 

*cough* Sociopath cough*

 

<.< I didn't say anything.

[Basement Cat]

*cough* Sociopath cough*

 

<.< I didn't say anything.

Nah, a sociopath typically doesn't feel remorse and have a very 'it's all about me' view of the world. Now Marjolaine is very much a sociopath, complete with paranoia and extreme selfishness.

 

Leliana's has one great virtue: she's loyal. She would not betray someone she sees as a friend unless they turned on her first. That is not a sociopathic trait. Leliana seems to suffer from dependency issues, almost to the point of dependent personality disorder. Her world view shifts depending on who she is allied with: she displays sociopathic traits when under Marjolaine's influence, she gets compassionate and kind in the Chantry, and she gets stuck in between when accompanying the Warden. Remember, the Warden essentially chooses what personality she should adopt. Again, being dependent. That would also explain why she is so good at being whoever her targets want her to be. It comes naturally to her.

 

In Inquisition she seems to have settled for 'the lesser of two evils' mentality. Murdering evil people is not as bad as murdering good people (for a given concept of good and evil, of course.) 

[Sifr]

Nah, a sociopath typically doesn't feel remorse and have a very 'it's all about me' view of the world. Now Marjolaine is very much a sociopath, complete with paranoia and extreme selfishness.

 

No kidding, Marjolaine is clearly a paranoid sociopath.

 

It's amost funny listening to her spiel about her wondering why Leliana left the Lothering Chantry all of a sudden?

 

Err... well, there was about to be a mass evacuation given that there was an imminent Darkspawn horde heading there to burn, murder and pillage everything in their path? What about the timely arrival of the last two Grey Wardens in the entire country who were on a vital quest that needed all the help they could get? Nah... too obvious... clearly it had to be an elaborate plan to get revenge on her!

 

Quoth the Warden, "It's not always about you, Marjolaine!"

 

[Serza]

Why? *genuinely curious*

 

I don't really know why...

 

I know it had to happen, with the dialogues, but I still can't really imagine it.

[Basement Cat]

No kidding, Marjolaine is clearly a paranoid sociopath.

Oh yeah. As much as I didn't care for her accent, props to Kath Soucie for conveying the sliminess of the character. She triggered so many red flags during that conversation, it's not even funny.

 

During that conversation and in Leliana's Song when she insists that 'they are the same'. They do have similar characteristics, but I always thought Marjolaine was 'reptilian'. She has the hypnotic quality, she's dangerous, she's seductive and she's cold. Leliana is more 'feline' to me. She can be cruel, but she can be sweet. She can be very seductive, but she has a playful side too. However, annoy her and watch those claws tear you to shreds.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nah, a sociopath typically doesn't feel remorse and have a very 'it's all about me' view of the world. Now Marjolaine is very much a sociopath, complete with paranoia and extreme selfishness.

 

Whom is to say that isn't a mask though?

 

Her mentor suggested as much and given we as the PC don't actually know her as well as her mentor, whom is to say that isn't an accurate assessment?

 

I think people put too much stock into what she says, and not what her history was, perhaps as a former soldier i see it differently.

 

For a Bard the objective, serving themselves or their master or patron is all that matters, its similar in the regard to "You swear to serve faithfully to those appointed above you". in militaries.

 

mmm i don't know, i just think people put too much stock into her words and not her actions, beyond that its only my opinion.

 

Beyond that: Following the Warden got her out of an incoming Horde's path, potentially gaining revenge over her former Master and possibly making her even more renown and powerful if she stops a blight.

 

If you look at it from a slightly different perspective...Marjoolaine's words of "She will use you" don't seem overly far fetched, again to me.

 

I don't judge her for her sociopathic tendencies, if they exist or no, i merely acknowledge them.

 

She lives in a world, where compassion, careless trust,  mercy, will kill you.

[Sifr]

I never saw even Bad!Leliana from LS as being like Marjolaine in the slightest, since even when she acted morally dubious, she honestly seemed to care about Tug and Sketch's welfare and was honestly broken up about Tug's death. She might be a scoundrel, but she's still capable of empathy.

 

Marjolaine meanwhile just saw them all as tools to be used and thrown away, as well as honestly believing them to be plotting behind her back and would turn against her in a heartbeat. I'd kind of love to know more about her, just so we could know how she got to be so messed up? Was it something that happened to her (presumably some kind of betrayal), or was she always that way?

[FiveThreeTen]

Oh yeah. As much as I didn't care for her accent, props to Kath Soucie for conveying the sliminess of the character. She triggered so many red flags during that conversation, it's not even funny.

 

During that conversation and in Leliana's Song when she insists that 'they are the same'. They do have similar characteristics, but I always thought Marjolaine was 'reptilian'. She has the hypnotic quality, she's dangerous, she's seductive and she's cold. Leliana is more 'feline' to me. She can be cruel, but she can be sweet. She can be very seductive, but she has a playful side too. However, annoy her and watch those claws tear you to shreds.

Leliana is a baby tiger?

Spoiler

[Master Warder Z_]

I never saw even Bad!Leliana from LS as being like Marjolaine in the slightest, since even when she acted morally dubious, she honestly seemed to care about Tug and Sketch's welfare and was honestly broken up about Tug's death. She might be a scoundrel, but she's still capable of empathy.

 

Note when she voices her empathy she isn't alone, could have only even faked it just to reassure Sketch, a powerful mage whom she needed to survive the coming struggles with that she actually viewed them as more hirelings.

[Basement Cat]

Whom is to say that isn't a mask though?

 

Her mentor suggested as much and given we as the PC don't actually know her as well as her mentor, whom is to say that isn't an accurate assessment?

If by her mentor you mean Marjolaine, well... She's hardly the most reliable judge of character herself, is she?

 

As for it being a mask, it's possible but not likely. If she was really that cold and calculating, she would have seen Marjolaine's betrayal from a mile away. She was completely caught off guard by it. As for gaining revenge on Marjolaine, she never even considers it until Marjolaine makes the first move. Leliana never suggests 'hey, let's go kill my mentor before she tries to kill me'.

[Sifr]

If by her mentor you mean Marjolaine, well... She's hardly the most reliable judge of character herself, is she?

 

As for it being a mask, it's possible but not likely. If she was really that cold and calculating, she would have seen Marjolaine's betrayal from a mile away. She was completely caught off guard by it. As for gaining revenge on Marjolaine, she never even considers it until Marjolaine makes the first move. Leliana never suggests 'hey, let's go kill my mentor before she tries to kill me'.

 

Exactly, Leliana never suggests that they kill Marjolaine, she simply wants answers for why she betrayed her and tried to kill her before, as well as trying to kill her again now. Even if she was thinking about revenge (which would be only natural), she only decides to kill her if the Warden suggests it first.

[Master Warder Z_]

If by her mentor you mean Marjolaine, well... She's hardly the most reliable judge of character herself, is she?

 

How is the Warden any different then?

 

 

As for it being a mask, it's possible but not likely. If she was really that cold and calculating, she would have seen Marjolaine's betrayal from a mile away

 

Would she? She voices her concern for the risk of selling Orlesian secrets to Fereldan Mercenaries, She is assured that things will be taken care of, the next thing that happens is she has a knife through her, now assuming that Leliana still views herself as valuable to Marjolaine why would the Bard Master cast aside a valuable resource?

 

 

As for gaining revenge on Marjolaine, she never even considers it until Marjolaine makes the first move. Leliana never suggests 'hey, let's go kill my mentor before she tries to kill me'.

 

Mmm, The first move wouldn't be Leliana leaving with the Warden to escape lothering's destruction then? She admits she knew she was being watched, what am i to think then, after the deed is done and i did her dirty work, except that Leliana excepted this outcome?

 

She would send assassins, the Assassins would fail and then with Warden PC in tow would confront her mentor.

 

Either way goes, she wins in the end.

 

 

Even if she was thinking about revenge (which would be only natural), she only decides to kill her if the Warden suggests it first.

 

That means nothing, showing her mentor that she is at least for the moment surrounded by powerful allies is enough until the crisis is over and until she find more permanent protection.

[Basement Cat]

Just for fun, here's a 10 point 'sociopath checklist'. Let's see how Leliana and Marjolaine score!

 

10 signs for spotting a sociopath

#1) Sociopaths are charming.  Leliana: check. Marjolaine: Check

#2) Sociopaths are more spontaneous and intense than other people. Leliana: Kinda? I'm not sure.  Marjolaine: Plotting high treason? Check!

#3) Sociopaths are incapable of feeling shame, guilt or remorse. Leliana: she does regret some stuff. Marjolaine: Check. Completely unrepentant.

#4) Sociopaths invent outrageous lies about their experiences. Leliana: Possible. Her story varies between Origins and Leliana's song. Marjolaine: can't tell.

#5) Sociopaths seek to dominate others and "win" at all costs. Leliana: Not really. She has that argument with Morrigan about religion, but that might be more an attempt to validate her faith. Ambiguous. Marjolaine: Ooh, boy, check!

#6) Sociopaths tend to be highly intelligent. Leliana: she's smart, but nothing special. Marjolaine: Check! Masterminding her various plots takes brain power.

#7) Sociopaths are incapable of love and are entirely self-serving. Leliana: She loved Marjolaine alright. Marjolaine: Check!

#8) Sociopaths speak poetically. Leliana: Check. Marjolaine: Check. They're both bards, so it makes sense.

#9) Sociopaths never apologize. Leliana: she does apologize when confronted. Marjolaine: Check.

#10) Sociopaths are delusional and literally believe that what they say becomes truth merely because they say it!  Leliana: if you interpret her ideas about the Maker that way, maybe? Marjolaine: Absolutely.

 

So, Leliana does show some tendencies, but there is a lot of ambiguity there. Marjolaine? Yeah, she's completely off the deep end. I do think Leliana suffers from a mental illness, just not sociopathy.

 

[Basement Cat]

Mmm, The first move wouldn't be Leliana leaving with the Warden to escape lothering's destruction then? She admits she knew she was being watched, what am i to think then, after the deed is done and i did her dirty work, except that Leliana excepted this outcome?

 

Really? I'll have to double check that. I don't remember her saying that.

[Master Warder Z_]

Really? I'll have to double check that. I don't remember her saying that.

 

Its my take on her wording.

 

"Even after all that time, she didn't trust me, maybe she never did."

 

How would She KNOW her former master didn't trust her?

 

Except by knowing that she was being watched by her?

 

._.

 

Admittedly its just my take but still.

[Basement Cat]

Its my take on her wording.

 

"Even after all that time, she didn't trust me, maybe she never did."

 

How would She KNOW her former master didn't trust her?

 

Except by knowing that she was being watched by her?

 

._.

 

Admittedly its just my take but still.

That's a bit of a reach, isn't it? She only says that after the confrontation, where Marjolaine reveals that she had her watched. 'Did you think I would not watch my Leliana?' is her exact phrase.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's a bit of a reach, isn't it?

 

No more then thinking Leliana a trained spy and bard wouldn't notice a plant in Lothering.

 

It isn't bloody newyork, how many cow farmers report to people in the capital?

[Basement Cat]

No more then thinking Leliana a trained spy and bard wouldn't notice a plant in Lothering.

 

It isn't bloody newyork, how many cow farmers report to people in the capital?

Doubtful they would report directly. Marjolaine most likely used a network, rather than one person who made regular trips. Even if they did, a farmer/artisan could have a perfectly legitimate reason to travel to town: to sell their goods at market.

 

Anyway, I don't think we'll convince each other here, so let's agree to disagree.

[Sifr]

If Leliana thought that she was being watched, why would she have stayed in Lothering? It's implied that Dorothea sent her there because it's a nowhere town far from anything important, the last place that Marjolaine would ever think to find her? Leliana's reaction seems to be that she honestly thought that she was safely hidden for those two years she spent there, rather than being watched all that time?

 

Unlike Marjolaine, Leliana doesn't seem that paranoid to suspect people are constantly watching her every move.

[Master Warder Z_]

Unlike Marjolaine, Leliana doesn't seem that paranoid to suspect people are constantly watching her every move.

 

._. She doesn't?

[Basement Cat]

If Leliana thought that she was being watched, why would she have stayed in Lothering? It's implied that Dorothea sent her there because it's a nowhere town far from anything important, the last place that Marjolaine would ever think to find her? Leliana's reaction seems to be that she honestly thought that she was safely hidden for those two years she spent there, rather than being watched all that time?

 

Unlike Marjolaine, Leliana doesn't seem that paranoid to suspect people are constantly watching her every move.

Meh, it could be argued that she was being savvy and maintaining her cover until a crew came along that could protect her. That would imply that Leliana is a great deal smarter than she lets on. Maybe she smartened up after the fiasco with Marjolaine.

 

Still, unless Sheryl comes in here and tells us point blank whether Leliana is a sociopath or not, the matter remains open for debate.

 

Option A: Leliana is stone cold sociopath, she's very smart, she manipulates people to get what she wants and she's good at adapting to a situation and adjusting her goals accordingly. The betrayal by Marjolaine was a miscalculation on her part. Being Left Hand of the Divine is not a bad achievement for a commoner born out of wedlock.

 

Option B: Leliana feels insecure in acting on her own behalf. She needs people with stronger personalities around her to guide her and make the hard decisions for her. She changes her personality in order to please the person she attaches herself to. She has a 'clan' mentality in that the only people who really exist for her are those close to her. That's why she had no problem killing/stealing/manipulating before. She only started feeling empathy for others after she got a taste of her own medicine and was forced to widen her view of the world.

 

Option C: Profit?