I wonder if the lack of a threesome or foursome tile in the Keep means that Isabela won't be in DA:I. Or at that if she does make an appearance in DA:I, that she won't share screen time with Leliana.
Because it would be out of character for Isabela *not* to comment on a threeway or fourway that involved Leliana if they shared a scene.
I hope that if Isabela appears, it happens when Hawke appears. Since mine romanced her and they stayed together afterall at the end of DA 2.
Maybe the appearance of Fenris, Merril and Isabela will depend on wether Hawke romanced them or not?
Maybe the appearance of Fenris, Merril and Isabela will depend on wether Hawke romanced them or not?
I didn't harden her in my main playthrough. In going to the chantry she made a choice to change something about herself. I thought hardening her would have been a step backward for her...it isn't growth IMO, at least not in the way Alistair's hardening is. I also feel that "unhardened" Leliana is a stronger person than "hardened" Leliana, who is less likely to stand up for herself and more willing to compromise her principles (ashes, threesome). Personally, I hope her cheerful and carefree personality isn't completely gone.
I don't think the threesome thing is really compromising principles, per se...
Having been a bard it might not even be her first.
She seemed to know what she was doing, so I doubt it was her first one.
Maybe "principles" was the wrong word, but I had the impression that a "hardened" Leliana will essentially do whatever the Warden says. I mean, she doesn't even lose any affection points if you hire a prostitute right in front of her 
I agree with miss Goto here.
Wait, where'd she go...?
Leliana is still my prefered character: as companion and lover.
Maybe "principles" was the wrong word, but I had the impression that a "hardened" Leliana will essentially do whatever the Warden says. I mean, she doesn't even lose any affection points if you hire a prostitute right in front of her
Don't agree with this, Chantry Lels was running away, hiding from her problems, she was pretty much stuck in a dull dreary rut and when she saw the Warden at Lothering she jumped at the chance to get some adventure back in her life. All under the guise of some vision she said she had. She owed a deep debt of gratitude to Divine Justinia of course and I'm sure she achieved some comfort through her new found faith but underneath she still craved for the excitement of her past life, hell she even admits it during the talk after killing Marjolaine. Lels is no push-over hardened, if anything she is her truer self.
Guest_Act of Velour_*
Don't agree with this, Chantry Lels was running away, hiding from her problems, she was pretty much stuck in a dull dreary rut and when she saw the Warden at Lothering she jumped at the chance to get some adventure back in her life. All under the guise of some vision she said she had. She owed a deep debt of gratitude to Divine Justinia of course and I'm sure she achieved some comfort through her new found faith but underneath she still craved for the excitement of her past life, hell she even admits it during the talk after killing Marjolaine. Lels is no push-over hardened, if anything she is her truer self.
Again, that's your opinion. Leliana, to me, didn't want to become what Marjolaine had become. The self-destructive life of a spying Bard may be fun, but it's short-lived, and you end it miserable, alone, and paranoid, as Leliana saw with Marjolaine. For a long time Marjolaine was really the only love and only guidance Leliana had, before she fled to the Chantry. With Chantry principles being her guide and the Warden being her love (or just an adventuring companion), she had a chance to change and to break away from her old life. Yeah, the adventure and thrill of it excited her, but there was no reason she couldn't hold on to her old values and have that fun. I didn't think Leliana lied about her vision or lied to get on the Warden's team. I think she genuinely believed what she said and believed in herself, until Marjolaine's cruel worlds changed her perceptions. Marjolaine was a deceiving b*tch, and I didn't want Leliana to become the same way. Leliana felt happy in killing Marjolaine, but of course anyone would in that situation. I didn't think it was the means of ruining an entire new lifestyle just to go back to something Leliana didn't seem to want to go back to. And yeah, Hardened Leliana was worse for relationships, I thought. She seemed pretty happy with getting it on with a prostitute, then probably discussing sex tips afterward. I prefer a bit more monogamy than that.
Again, that's your opinion. Leliana, to me, didn't want to become what Marjolaine had become. The self-destructive life of a spying Bard may be fun, but it's short-lived, and you end it miserable, alone, and paranoid, as Leliana saw with Marjolaine. For a long time Marjolaine was really the only love and only guidance Leliana had, before she fled to the Chantry. With Chantry principles being her guide and the Warden being her love (or just an adventuring companion), she had a chance to change and to break away from her old life. Yeah, the adventure and thrill of it excited her, but there was no reason she couldn't hold on to her old values and have that fun. I didn't think Leliana lied about her vision or lied to get on the Warden's team. I think she genuinely believed what she said and believed in herself, until Marjolaine's cruel worlds changed her perceptions. Marjolaine was a deceiving b*tch, and I didn't want Leliana to become the same way. Leliana felt happy in killing Marjolaine, but of course anyone would in that situation. I didn't think it was the means of ruining an entire new lifestyle just to go back to something Leliana didn't seem to want to go back to. And yeah, Hardened Leliana was worse for relationships, I thought. She seemed pretty happy with getting it on with a prostitute, then probably discussing sex tips afterward. I prefer a bit more monogamy than that.
Hardened Lels wasn't gonna fall into the same pattern as her mentor, she has a softness, connects deeply to those she loves, she enjoyed the game yes but she doesn't have it in her to be cruel and willfully manipulative of her lover's emotions as Marjolaine was. Never had that fear that Leliana just because she enjoyed the thrill of the bard life was gonna become Marjolaine 2.0 when I hardened her. Marjolaine had it coming, Lels knew it too, had no problem explaining this to her, still am doubtful about her vision story. I'm skeptical when it comes to religious visions and such, hell I'll just say I believe you believe you saw something Leliana and leave it at that.
Leliana had learned many tricks of the trade in her bard life, had no problems with her being more sexually open myself however as for the threesome, meh I never cared for it myself. I tried it once just to see what happens. Not my thing, not a big fan of those kind of experiences personally, but hey to each their own right.
Guest_Act of Velour_*
Not everyone is into hyper-sexed polygamy around here. Whether or not Leliana was doing it alongside her lover, it was still something I didn't like. I couldn't trust Leliana relationship-wise or companion-wise when hardened; I figured she was going to land a knife in my back at any moment. I don't want this topic becoming one of some kind of feministic "female sex appetites", though.
Modifié par Act of Velour, 02 novembre 2014 - 08:08 .
I never took that option either, though I also never hardened Leliana.
It's one thing to harden Alistair; it helps him settle into his duties as a king. But hardening Leliana feels like I'm taking advantage of her trust for my own benefit.
Not everyone is into hyper-sexed polygamy around here. Whether or not Leliana was doing it alongside her lover, it was still something I didn't like. I couldn't trust Leliana relationship-wise or companion-wise when hardened; I figured she was going to land a knife in my back at any moment. This isn't an argument about feminism and "female sexual appetites" though, so please don't go there, though god knows Crimson and her "lesbian friends" will make it so.
I might have believed that had you not phrased it as "hyper-sexed," thus implying some sort of pathological or otherwise abnormally high sex drive, something that never actually comes up within the relationship. Also, polygamy is group marriage.
Guest_Act of Velour_*
I might have believed that had you not phrased it as "hyper-sexed," thus implying some sort of pathological or otherwise abnormally high sex drive, something that never actually comes up within the relationship. Also, polygamy is group marriage.
Of course, and I didn't mean nor think polygamy is hyper-sexed, but it seems to me that most of the people around this forum who are supportive of polygamy seem to translate that to "F*ck everything" and not "Be with multiple people you love". I had referred to polygamy in the sense of wanting multiple partners or relations with multiple people, but I see your point. Sorry I didn't clarify.
Of course, and I didn't mean nor think polygamy is hyper-sexed, but it seems to me that most of the people around this forum who are supportive of polygamy seem to translate that to "F*ck everything" and not "Be with multiple people you love". I had referred to polygamy in the sense of wanting multiple partners or relations with multiple people, but I see your point. Sorry I didn't clarify.
Well, firstly, there's a grand total of one threesome here, which doesn't really dovetail into any desire for actual polygamy. Secondly, there was an actual thread about polyamory in Scuttlebutt where it was clarified a lot better, though that was a while ago... I may try to find it. Thirdly, I strongly dislike your prior implication that being open to threesomes means that one is "worse for relationships."
Guest_Act of Velour_*
Well, firstly, there's a grand total of one threesome here, which doesn't really dovetail into any desire for actual polygamy. Secondly, there was an actual thread about polyamory in Scuttlebutt where it was clarified a lot better, though that was a while ago... I may try to find it. Thirdly, I strongly dislike your prior implication that being open to threesomes means that one is "worse for relationships."
I never said that being open to threesomes makes one worse for relationships. I said it's something I personally dislike, I know people who personally dislike the idea, and it's a bit irritating that so many people here seem to adore three+somes with such adamant passion, and then they discredit those who don't as "not being open-minded". I do think having sex with other people constitutes as polygamy; if it's with your current partner, fine, but if it's not with your partner and instead with strangers or something, then it's infidelity and inexcusable in my opinion.
I never said that being open to threesomes makes one worse for relationships. I said it's something I personally dislike, I know people who personally dislike the idea, and it's a bit irritating that so many people here seem to adore three+somes with such adamant passion, and then they discredit those who don't as "not being open-minded". I do think having sex with other people constitutes as polygamy; if it's with your current partner, fine, but if it's not with your partner and instead with strangers or something, then it's infidelity and inexcusable in my opinion.
Indeed?
And yeah, Hardened Leliana was worse for relationships, I thought. She seemed pretty happy with getting it on with a prostitute, then probably discussing sex tips afterward. I prefer a bit more monogamy than that.
I find it somewhat difficult to see, in context, where the "worse for relationships" part would come from if not said threesome, as Leliana won't go prostitute-browsing in the Pearl on her own.
Also, polygamy is fundamentally defined as marriage; what you're thinking of is a more general kind of polyamory. And I'll choose to believe that "If it's with your current partner, fine" refers to both of you having sex with other people at the same time.
Guest_Act of Velour_*
Indeed?
I find it somewhat difficult to see, in context, where the "worse for relationships" part would come from if not said threesome, as Leliana won't go prostitute-browsing in the Pearl on her own.
Also, polygamy is fundamentally defined as marriage; what you're thinking of is a more general kind of polyamory. And I'll choose to believe that "If it's with your current partner, fine" refers to both of you having sex with other people at the same time.
I wasn't really referring to her openness to a threeway/fourway, but more-so that she seemed to be to be more like Marjolaine, whom backstabbed her long-time lover, treated her like garbage, had her tortured, and wanted to have her killed, all on little more than a whim. I figured she'd be worse for general relationships because I couldn't trust her. I knew better than to trust full Bards to begin with, and it'd suck to have to end up killing Leliana if she turned a dagger on her Warden-lover when they were most trusting of her. The desire for sex with others didn't really factor in, but I'm fairly sensitive to monogamy; if it's no-strings-attached and just some kind of casual thing, I'm all for it; I'm very, very sexually open in that case. But if someone's in a relationship where love is professed in earnest, it's my own belief that that shouldn't be interfered with or added to. If it's serious, I like to keep it between two people only. That's simply my opinion, and others aren't wrong for possibly believing otherwise. Yeah, thank you, the term I wanted was polyamory. I'm pretty drowsy and certain words are escaping me. 
In the end though, I didn't dislike Hardened Leliana for sexual reasons, but more along the lines of me personally feeling unable to trust her.
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