15912 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Even though encouraging that behavior may lead to a certain Grey Warden being tossed to the way side down the road? Look how fast she disowned and threw Justinia into a ditch when she is hardened. The Divine was one of her friends, close friend even and being hardened in Inquisition makes her then think that Justinia was using her (well she was but Unhardened Leliana sees what Justinia was getting at with the message.)

So whats stopping her from becoming so lost in the "darkness" of war and chaos that she just sees the Warden as something similar to the Divine? Something thats just holding her back. Especially for the power hungry hardened leliana who wants to be Divine. *shivers*

Crazy how drastic the differences are between hardened and unhardened for Leliana in this game. One reverts back to being kind and wants to INSPIRE the people to be better. The other is cruel, calculating and will silence any who opposes her with a knife to their throats.

 

Given my warden was in love with hardened Leliana in the first place i don't see there being any liklihood of him being cast aside. He'll be helping her shed blood in the Chantry's halls as far as i'm concerned.

[wright1978]

She's worse than she ever was under Marjolaine or Warden's crappy influence. 

 

I don't think she is.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Leliana was never abducting young children to use as leverage hostages when she was running with the Warden...

 

Hardened Leliana and unhardened Leliana in DA:O weren't really that different, at the end of the day. The change was pretty subtle, playing a major ruthless murderous dink would still score you pretty low in her books. Hardened Leliana in DA:I is a major leap from that. 

[PickledGear]

She's worse than she ever was under Marjolaine or Warden's crappy influence. 

Exactly, Hardened Origins Leliana, just opened up and accepted that she was a bard. She dropped the shield she built herself in the Chantry because she didn't want to be like Marjolaine but Hardened Leliana just accepts that there was a reason for her being like Marjolaine but she could still love. Because there was still good things in the world, good people. The Warden, Dorothea/Justinia, friends she made in her journey with the Warden.

But Inquisition Leliana. After 10 years of just going out and being a operative for the Divine. She probably killed people who she didn't even talk to. They could've had a family but she probably just went up to them gutted them and left. Her justification being that Justinia had her do it for a good cause. For Good people so that made her good as well. Plus it helped cement her belief in the Chantry as well.
She lost good friends along those 10 years. (not spoiling that.)

Then the Conclave happened, Justinia is killed and her faith is all but crushed. She really has no more friends since she hasn't really talked to them in years. One of her best friends is murdered and now she is questioning everything. She sees how ruthless the world is and she sees that as a sign that there is no good. Or if there was good, all of what was good for her is dead. (Even the warden if the warden is dead in a playthrough.) She then lets this be the reason for her to become ruthless. Even Varric states she never leaves her work, she is "Starting to twitch" You can bet Leliana is depressed, she hides it but exposes it at Haven. Claiming it was weakness and she shouldn't have shown it.

The Inquisitor is the final straw on who she ends up being. Either being the example that what she thought good in the world isn't dead, that it isn't all gone (unhardened, telling her not to waste life.) or Just cutting the rope/ pushing her over the edge and just finally cementing her fall into something worse.

I mean seriously? Some bard is saying some mean things around towns and taverns. Lets shut them up by cutting their tongue out. Don't you think that isn't going overboard. Wouldn't it be better to either slap them on the wrist or just do what Cullen does and just let them be.

I'm really surprised they didn't have some conversation where Cullen who has gone through his darkest times and emerged better. He spent 10 years of always being angry, hating mages and just not being himself. He definitely had PTSD after the torture and horrors the demons and abominations put him through in the Circle. Why not have something where Cullen tries to talk with Leliana, try and help her get through the Trauma and the loss?

Thats why I will always go unhardened Leliana in Inquisition. She is borderline psychopath with Hardened. Some people even are saying that hardened Leliana has the potential to become a villain in some ways. I actually agree with that. Seriously Natalie was a friend and without hesitation because Natalie was misinformed by a grand cleric she slits her friend's throat... WTF?

What is stopping her from turning on the Warden if down the road, The Warden tries to advise Leliana on a decision (as the divine.) that they shouldn't do something. But Leliana sees it as a threat? Worse situation she could kill the Warden. Best case? She ends the relationship, tells them to leave forever. And middle? Probably throwing the warden in a dungeon somewhere.

Sorry, Rant... There is so much hope for unhardened Leliana. I see Hardened Leliana kinda like Darth Vader. Fallen to the dark side but possibly in the end could somehow redeem herself. If she isn't horrified by the things she has done by then.
 

[wright1978]

Leliana was never abducting young children to use as leverage hostages when she was running with the Warden...

 

Hardened Leliana and unhardened Leliana in DA:O weren't really that different, at the end of the day. The change was pretty subtle, playing a major ruthless murderous dink would still score you pretty low in her books. Hardened Leliana in DA:I is a major leap from that. 

 

Disagree think Hardened and unhardened DAO Leliana are very different. What Bioware did in the followup period of 10 years was put both back in a path of convergence. DAI is just the moment where she finally fully commits to the hard or soft path.

[Nerdage]

She still "dedicates the chantry to the principle of charity" either way, it's not like she becomes a power-mad lunatic, it's just that hardened Leliana thinks that justifies her killing anyone who threatens her peace. I guess the way she sees it, anyone who opposes her or her reforms must also oppose her ideas on equality and charity and would return the Chantry to being human-centric and self-serving, which makes them a danger to everyone.

 

I wound up hardening her in my first play-through - I didn't intervene in the Butler thing because it didn't seem like my place - and I did wonder if my Warden would even recognize her, but honestly after 10 years as Warden-Commander she's probably seen and done some serious [stuff] too. If anyone understands the whole "doing unpleasant things for the greater good" thing, it would be a warden after all.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

and I did wonder if my Warden would even recognize her, but honestly after 10 years as Warden-Commander she's probably seen and done some serious [stuff] too. If anyone understands the whole "doing unpleasant things for the greater good" thing, it would be a warden after all.

 

I guess that's true. I always kinda headcanoned burning Amaranthine as my Warden's own little 'hardening moment' so I guess she wouldn't be able to judge too much. 

 

Still...I think there'd be some tension in my case with hardened Leliana. Gonna stick with unhardened. :S

[Han Shot First]

Exactly, Hardened Origins Leliana, just opened up and accepted that she was a bard. She dropped the shield she built herself in the Chantry because she didn't want to be like Marjolaine but Hardened Leliana just accepts that there was a reason for her being like Marjolaine but she could still love. Because there was still good things in the world, good people. The Warden, Dorothea/Justinia, friends she made in her journey with the Warden.

But Inquisition Leliana. After 10 years of just going out and being a operative for the Divine. She probably killed people who she didn't even talk to. They could've had a family but she probably just went up to them gutted them and left. Her justification being that Justinia had her do it for a good cause. For Good people so that made her good as well. Plus it helped cement her belief in the Chantry as well.
She lost good friends along those 10 years. (not spoiling that.)
 

 

On the hardened path in DA:I I think Leliana is just reverting to old form. It's just a version the player isn't familiar with, because we don't really run into Leliana until after she's had her Chantry Nun redemption moment.

 

Bards aren't nice people. They are spies and assassins, and when they kill it's just in service to some scheming noble playing Orlais' Great Game. I'm sure some of their targets are thoroughly evil and perhaps deserving, but some are also no doubt people

Spoiler

like the noble killed by Thom Ranier

who've just had the misfortune to end up on the losing side of Orlais' political bloodsport. There is no indication that they are guided by any moral code.

 

So its probably safe to assume that Leliana has done some fairly dark deeds before you run into her in DA:O. DA:I probably isn't the first time she's taken part in outright murder.

[Todrazok]

So i just spoke to Blackwall today, and he had this to say when i asked him about the advisors.

 

"Leliana is lonely, all she has is her work. I pity her sometimes."

 

God damnit warden, finish up ur business and go give ur lady a hug already, 

[Xilizhra]

On the hardened path in DA:I I think Leliana is just reverting to old form. It's just a version the player isn't familiar with, because we don't really run into Leliana until after she's had her Chantry Nun redemption moment.

 

Bards aren't nice people. They are spies and assassins, and when they kill it's just in service to some scheming noble playing Orlais' Great Game. I'm sure some of their targets are thoroughly evil and perhaps deserving, but some are also no doubt people

Spoiler

like the noble killed by Thom Ranier

who've just had the misfortune to end up on the losing side of Orlais' political bloodsport. There is no indication that they are guided by any moral code.

 

So its probably safe to assume that Leliana has done some fairly dark deeds before you run into her in DA:O. DA:I probably isn't the first time she's taken part in outright murder.

Actually, we do see Leliana before then, in Leliana's Song, and she's nothing like dark Leliana in Inquisition. Pre-Chantry Leliana is still cheerful, kind when the option is open to her, and playful. Inquisition's dark Leliana is... none of that.

[Han Shot First]

So i just spoke to Blackwall today, and he had this to say when i asked him about the advisors.

 

"Leliana is lonely, all she has is her work. I pity her sometimes."

 

God damnit warden, finish up ur business and go give ur lady a hug already, 

 

Speaking of the Warden, did you

Spoiler

get the letter the Warden sends to the Inquisitor about Leliana?

 

It made me feel a but guilty about having the Inquisitor harden her.

 

 

 

Actually, we do see Leliana before then, in Leliana's Song, and she's nothing like dark Leliana in Inquisition. Pre-Chantry Leliana is still cheerful, kind when the option is open to her, and playful. Inquisition's dark Leliana is... none of that.

 

Leliana's Song doesn't really count because it is only one mission. You can't use that as an example of everything Leliana got up to throughout her entire career as a bard. Also there are strong indications that the tale itself is embellished, as the story is bookended by narration by Leliana as if she is telling the tale to an audience. And it doesn't match the story she told the Warden.

 

Also being cheerful has nothing to do with ruthlessness or lack thereof. Ramsay Bolton is cheerful.

[hong]

I see Hardened Leliana kinda like Darth Vader. Fallen to the dark side but possibly in the end could somehow redeem herself.

And this is a BAD thing, why?

[Xilizhra]

Leliana's Song doesn't really count because it is only one mission. You can't use that as an example of everything Leliana got up to throughout her entire career as a bard. Also there are strong indications that the tale itself is embellished, as the story is bookended by narration by Leliana as if she is telling the tale to an audience. And it doesn't match the story she told the Warden.

Not everything, but it shows off her personality.

[Todrazok]

Speaking of the Warden, did you

Spoiler

get the letter the Warden sends to the Inquisitor about Leliana?

 

It made me feel a but guilty about having the Inquisitor harden her.

 

Yep, and then later I managed to harden her, man did I realize how hard I had messed up when I saw the epilogue.

 

Later on I reloaded an earlier save and played through the later half of my inital Qunari Male Warrior, since oddly enough my character creation attempt with a human female just didn't quite click with me.   Needless to say history was rewritten to what it was supposed to be, and boy is unhardening Leliana much more satisfying.

[Spankatola]

Exactly, Hardened Origins Leliana, just opened up and accepted that she was a bard. She dropped the shield she built herself in the Chantry because she didn't want to be like Marjolaine but Hardened Leliana just accepts that there was a reason for her being like Marjolaine but she could still love. Because there was still good things in the world, good people. The Warden, Dorothea/Justinia, friends she made in her journey with the Warden.

But Inquisition Leliana. After 10 years of just going out and being a operative for the Divine. She probably killed people who she didn't even talk to. They could've had a family but she probably just went up to them gutted them and left. Her justification being that Justinia had her do it for a good cause. For Good people so that made her good as well. Plus it helped cement her belief in the Chantry as well.
She lost good friends along those 10 years. (not spoiling that.)

Then the Conclave happened, Justinia is killed and her faith is all but crushed. She really has no more friends since she hasn't really talked to them in years. One of her best friends is murdered and now she is questioning everything. She sees how ruthless the world is and she sees that as a sign that there is no good. Or if there was good, all of what was good for her is dead. (Even the warden if the warden is dead in a playthrough.) She then lets this be the reason for her to become ruthless. Even Varric states she never leaves her work, she is "Starting to twitch" You can bet Leliana is depressed, she hides it but exposes it at Haven. Claiming it was weakness and she shouldn't have shown it.

The Inquisitor is the final straw on who she ends up being. Either being the example that what she thought good in the world isn't dead, that it isn't all gone (unhardened, telling her not to waste life.) or Just cutting the rope/ pushing her over the edge and just finally cementing her fall into something worse.

I mean seriously? Some bard is saying some mean things around towns and taverns. Lets shut them up by cutting their tongue out. Don't you think that isn't going overboard. Wouldn't it be better to either slap them on the wrist or just do what Cullen does and just let them be.

I'm really surprised they didn't have some conversation where Cullen who has gone through his darkest times and emerged better. He spent 10 years of always being angry, hating mages and just not being himself. He definitely had PTSD after the torture and horrors the demons and abominations put him through in the Circle. Why not have something where Cullen tries to talk with Leliana, try and help her get through the Trauma and the loss?

Thats why I will always go unhardened Leliana in Inquisition. She is borderline psychopath with Hardened. Some people even are saying that hardened Leliana has the potential to become a villain in some ways. I actually agree with that. Seriously Natalie was a friend and without hesitation because Natalie was misinformed by a grand cleric she slits her friend's throat... WTF?

What is stopping her from turning on the Warden if down the road, The Warden tries to advise Leliana on a decision (as the divine.) that they shouldn't do something. But Leliana sees it as a threat? Worse situation she could kill the Warden. Best case? She ends the relationship, tells them to leave forever. And middle? Probably throwing the warden in a dungeon somewhere.

Sorry, Rant... There is so much hope for unhardened Leliana. I see Hardened Leliana kinda like Darth Vader. Fallen to the dark side but possibly in the end could somehow redeem herself. If she isn't horrified by the things she has done by then.
 

 

I'm sorry to come to this thread late. I just (accidentally, didn't realize Leliana had this much content) triggered the Left Hand of the Divine last night, and man was I bummed. She's a murdering douche now! Boy won't my Warden be surprised.

 

But, and I'm sorry for my ignorance, you mention that this is hardened Leliana? As in, there was a different path for her? I wonder what I did.

[Nerdage]

I'm sorry to come to this thread late. I just (accidentally, didn't realize Leliana had this much content) triggered the Left Hand of the Divine last night, and man was I bummed. She's a murdering douche now! Boy won't my Warden be surprised.

 

But, and I'm sorry for my ignorance, you mention that this is hardened Leliana? As in, there was a different path for her? I wonder what I did.

 

There is, if you make the right "nice" decisions around her... (spoilers, obviously)

 

Spoiler

After your first convo with her at Haven, an agent runs up to her to talk about someone who betrayed the inquisition, you have to hang around long enough for it to let you join in, then tell her not to kill him.

 

Then, when you first arrive at Skyhold and she apologizes for pulling her agents back, you have to reassure her she did the right thing.

 

Which basically leaves her a "nicer" person when her personal mission wraps up.

[Barquiel]

There you go. You saw yourself as unworthy of listening to. It would take some audacity to try to influence someone you don't know.. and expect results in the longrun.

It simply didn't seem important enough to intervene. She doesn't even ask for our opinion, we more or less overhear the whole thing. I mean, it was rather obvious that her conversation after Haven would have some impact. The decision about Natalie, too. Or the conversation after Marjolaine in DAO. But the thing with Butler?

So I got ruthless Leliana because I allowed her to kill some traitor (we never met)...who caused the death of another agent (we never met either)...at the beginning of the game! That's just stupid, imo. I think they could have handled it much better, preferably without resorting to a "one dialogue choice determines all" scenario (for example, I think softening a character was well done in the Omega DLC. Aria can change according to your actions and conversations with her throughout the entire DLC).

[wright1978]

Yep, and then later I managed to harden her, man did I realize how hard I had messed up when I saw the epilogue.

 

Later on I reloaded an earlier save and played through the later half of my inital Qunari Male Warrior, since oddly enough my character creation attempt with a human female just didn't quite click with me.   Needless to say history was rewritten to what it was supposed to be, and boy is unhardening Leliana much more satisfying.

 

Horses for courses i suppose. I find hardened Leliana eminently more satisfying and her epilogue brilliant. That's the brilliant bard my warden loves.

[Spankatola]

There is, if you make the right "nice" decisions around her... (spoilers, obviously)

 

Spoiler

After your first convo with her at Haven, an agent runs up to her to talk about someone who betrayed the inquisition, you have to hang around long enough for it to let you join in, then tell her not to kill him.

 

Then, when you first arrive at Skyhold and she apologizes for pulling her agents back, you have to reassure her she did the right thing.

 

Which basically leaves her a "nicer" person when her personal mission wraps up.

 

Hunh. Thanks for the response. I guess I messed that up immediately. Sure didn't feel like a momentous convo. She must have REAAAAALLY wanted to turn into a creep. I agree with those who see her as villainous afterwards. There's no way in hell I'd support someone like that as Divine.

[Basement Cat]

It simply didn't seem important enough to intervene. She doesn't even ask for our opionion, we more or less overhear the whole thing. I mean, it was rather obvious that her conversation after Haven would have some impact. The decision about Natalie, too. Or the conversation after Marjolaine in DAO. But the thing with Butler?

So I got ruthless Leliana because I allowed her to kill some traitor (we never met)...who caused the death of another agent (we never met either)...at the beginning of the game! That's just stupid, imo. I think they could have handled it much better, preferably without resorting to a "one dialogue choice determines all" scenario (for example, I think softening a character was well done in the Omega DLC. Aria can change according to your actions and conversations with her throughout the entire DLC).

Maybe they were going for 'even the smallest actions can have far reaching consequences' thing. Something that seems insignificant to you can be tremendously important for someone else.

 

Still a bit of a low blow, but hey.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I don't think her 'returning to form' (not sure thats entirely true, anyway...) is reason to harden her.

Dunno about everyone else, but I'd rather she improve as a person rather than regress.

Speaking of the Warden, did you

Spoiler

get the letter the Warden sends to the Inquisitor about Leliana?

It made me feel a but guilty about having the Inquisitor harden her.

That was one of the many reasons I hated hardening her. By the time I got that letter, it was already too late.

[Han Shot First]

Hunh. Thanks for the response. I guess I messed that up immediately. Sure didn't feel like a momentous convo. She must have REAAAAALLY wanted to turn into a creep. I agree with those who see her as villainous afterwards. There's no way in hell I'd support someone like that as Divine.

 

Hardened Leliana as Divine is basically the Bhelen of Divines.She's a radical reformer, but she's probably going to leave a trail of bodies in enacting and enforcing those reforms.

 

Having said that, I think she'd be better off hardened if she is going to be named Divine. She wants to enact radical change, and any time radical changes are introduced there is a high probability of unrest or violence. Hardened Leliana probably has more change at succeeding, because she'll just have no qualms about having opponents murdered.

 

I think on any playthrough where Leliana is unhardened I'd try to get Cassandra elected Divine. Unhardened Leliana might be too soft for what she wants to achieve, not unlike Justinia. And that could be dangerous.