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[Spankatola]

Intersesting. Thanks. So Morrigan didn't talk to you in the gardens about it after the operation was complete? From what you say it still kind of sounds buggy where personally perfoming the DR is overwriting some stuff and forcing some romance if done. Now the patch mentioned fixing some world state stuff but I don't know if it handled everything, or you need to start a new game to apply, etc.  I think the latter paragraphs in the letter (romance/matching backgrounds) is just through checking variables in the world state and adding them as applicable so it may think personal perfom DR=romance? I don't know. Also you said that the war table simply mentions one private letter. Not to mention I've seen some mentions about Morrigan being buggy like in world state such as people who stabbed Morrigan having the game sometimes putting them are in romance even if not and so on. That family thing you mentioned seems very odd and makes me think it's buggy.

 

We spoke in the garden after The Final Piece, and she mentioned that she and the Warden were close. Didn't call him her love or anything. But it was a very confusing conversation and two very confusing paragraphs in his letter, especially since Leliana correctly believes she's in a romance with him. My Inquisitor would have been like: "Wait. How many women think you're in love with them right now? You sly boots!"

[mrcrazyman]

We spoke in the garden after The Final Piece, and she mentioned that she and the Warden were close. Didn't call him her love or anything. But it was a very confusing conversation and two very confusing paragraphs in his letter, especially since Leliana correctly believes she's in a romance with him. My Inquisitor would have been like: "Wait. How many women think you're in love with them right now? You sly boots!"

 

Well you mentioned how the Warden refers to Morrigan and son as familiy which definately seems off. As for that garden scene I guess the only way to see if that's intentional or not is to find out what she says if romanced in that situation. If it's the same then it might be a bug or BW taking liberites with the Wardens not in romance with a personal OGB by forcing attachments. Still I'll never see this situation play out since I find as cheating on Leliana or Zevran to perform the DR never made sense to me since Alistair and Loghain exist.

[Spankatola]

Well you mentioned how the Warden refers to Morrigan and son as familiy which definately seems off. As for that garden scene I guess the only way to see if that's intentional or not is to find out what she says if romanced in that situation. If it's the same then it might be a bug or BW taking liberites with the Wardens not in romance with a personal OGB by forcing attachments. Still I'll never situation see this as cheating on Leliana or Zevran to perform the DR never made sense to me since Alistair and Loghain exist.

 

Yeah, in the game I did the DR basically because I pussed out of making the ultimate sacrifice and didn't have the heart to ask Alistair. And Loghain was dead. I've started a second playthrough with Morrigan as romanced via the Keep, we'll see what that looks like.

[TheLittleBird]

I romanced Leliana and did the Dark Ritual with Morrigan... but my letter from the Warden never mentioned any affection towards Morrigan and her son. It only spoke of his love for Leliana. So I assume that any affection he shows towards Morrigan if not in a romance with her is a bug.

[Spankatola]

I romanced Leliana and did the Dark Ritual with Morrigan... but my letter from the Warden never mentioned any affection towards Morrigan and her son. It only spoke of his love for Leliana. So I assume that any affection he shows towards Morrigan if not in a romance with her is a bug.

 

That's interesting. And too bad, I came pretty close to having a bug-free first play through.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Still I'll never situation see this as cheating on Leliana or Zevran to perform the DR never made sense to me since Alistair and Loghain exist.

I guess I can see why some people might have not wanted to force Alistair into that...still, female Warden, wasn't much choice on my part. Probably wouldn't do it if I could. I'd take Alistair having a bad memory of his first time over being dead. Sure he would too. :S

Kinda disappointing any OGB parents other than a Warden parent is hardly acknowledged at all, on that note. I remember Leliana talking about how polite Kieran was, and "Not that I'm surprised, given...nevermind." which I took as an Alistair reference, (was it?) but that was about it. Hm.

[mrcrazyman]

Kinda disappointing any OGB parents other than a Warden parent is hardly acknowledged at all, on that note. I remember Leliana talking about how polite Kieran was, and "Not that I'm surprised, given...nevermind." which I took as an Alistair reference, (was it?) but that was about it. Hm.

 

Got the same line with Loghain. The only reference I can think of was at the end of Adamant when Loghain left to Weissupt he told me to give his regards to the witch.

 

edit:Although there is supposed to be a scene but it seems super buggyhttp://forum.bioware...ions/?bioware=1

[N7_Heartfire]

I didn't expect them to reference the outcome of a male Warden who did the DR and romanced Leliana, but I'm glad they did. Fits well with my headcanon about the Warden telling Leliana about the Ritual after the Blight.

 

I'm glad Leliana turned out to be selfless and understanding about why (in the case of a male Warden) her love had to do the Ritual. And saying how thankful she was to Morrigan and Kieran.

 

Also, knowing that Kieran was her love's son made the scene where Leliana is concerned about Kieran's disappearance that much more deep. She cares for him, even though he is not her own son. :')

[makojoyriding]

So, uh, brief change of topic. How did the end of Leliana's personal quest go for everyone? I got Dark Side Leliana, which is confusing because I told her she doesn't have to kill Natalie (and does anyway). While I did agree with her choosing to kill the traitor, why does one death force her hand? Or is that the only option? Friend of mine said Leliana saw her compassion wasn't a weaknesses, whereas my Leliana is like "lol no, it's death and subterfuge from here."

 

I'm really disappointed, but oh well I guess?

[Wulfram]

Yeah, you have to tell her to spare the traitor in the early dialogue.  And tell her to look after her soldiers lives in the post fall of haven conversation.

 

I also don't think it really makes sense for that early dialogue to have such weight, but it does.

[makojoyriding]

That's bizarre. I told her to look after her agents, and not to kill Natalie, and yet killing one traitor changes everything? What. whaaaat.

[mrcrazyman]

So, uh, brief change of topic. How did the end of Leliana's personal quest go for everyone? I got Dark Side Leliana, which is confusing because I told her she doesn't have to kill Natalie (and does anyway). While I did agree with her choosing to kill the traitor, why does one death force her hand? Or is that the only option? Friend of mine said Leliana saw her compassion wasn't a weaknesses, whereas my Leliana is like "lol no, it's death and subterfuge from here."

 

I'm really disappointed, but oh well I guess?

 

Managed to get "unhardened." The killing the traitor made no sense to me as logically interrogation for info would make more sense. I thought it was to callous to just call say that soldiers die right after what happened at Haven. Thus prevented killing Natalie, then completing the "unhardening" via the stop torturing yourself line.
 

 

That's bizarre. I told her to look after her agents, and not to kill Natalie, and yet killing one traitor changes everything? What. whaaaat.

 

I think the main reason I didn't like it was that her quest  and all the Divine variables are the only choices that I can think of that carry throughout the game at least from a resolution standpoint. All the other choices were yes or no responses with immediate resolution.  I wish it occurred for more things or not at all.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Dun goofed and got her hardened first playthrough, but have since corrected it. Like her unhardened self much more.

 

"Niceness before knives, she says!"

[Todrazok]

Dun goofed and got her hardened first playthrough, but have since corrected it. Like her unhardened self much more.

 

"Niceness before knives, she says!"

I did the same, so much more satisfying 

[Hornless Qunari/Human DPS]

I liked it when she said when you killed those traitors and that made her happy. She enjoys killing on some many different levels of conversations.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I did the same, so much more satisfying 

 

Yeah. It's a shame so many people probably won't see it because of the rather...unclear prerequisites, I felt like unhardened Leliana in DA:I was the much more satisfying character arc. Felt like she actually grew as a person by the end of it. 

[Hornless Qunari/Human DPS]

Ever try a hardened Lil then to make her unhardened oh she gives you a lecture big time oh who she really is, i said let it all go and she like freaked me out.

[PickledGear]

Listening to Cole's words about Hardened and Unhardened Leliana pretty much solidify it for me. Unhardened Leliana forever.

Hardened - "The Left Hand is harder, faith fallen in folly. It makes the dreams worse, But sends them away faster."

Unhardened - "The Left Hand blooms on the bush! Remembering the light that shined in her darkness. She knows how to sing again."
 

[Han Shot First]

So, uh, brief change of topic. How did the end of Leliana's personal quest go for everyone? I got Dark Side Leliana, which is confusing because I told her she doesn't have to kill Natalie (and does anyway). While I did agree with her choosing to kill the traitor, why does one death force her hand? Or is that the only option? Friend of mine said Leliana saw her compassion wasn't a weaknesses, whereas my Leliana is like "lol no, it's death and subterfuge from here."

 

I'm really disappointed, but oh well I guess?

 

I ended up with hardened Leliana.

 

Cassandra was elected Divine though,

[wright1978]

Listening to Cole's words about Hardened and Unhardened Leliana pretty much solidify it for me. Unhardened Leliana forever.

Hardened - "The Left Hand is harder, faith fallen in folly. It makes the dreams worse, But sends them away faster."

Unhardened - "The Left Hand blooms on the bush! Remembering the light that shined in her darkness. She knows how to sing again."
 

 

Couldn't care less about Cole's opinion personally. I adore hardened Leliana.

[PickledGear]

Couldn't care less about Cole's opinion personally. I adore hardened Leliana.

 

Opinion? Yes he is naive to the complexity to the mortal mind, but he CAN SEE into their minds and see the raw truth. He can see the problem, the hurt of a person. These things are what he sees in Leliana.

I don't think Cole ever lies about helping a person. I could see a Humanized Cole learning that lying can help a person's hurt but that will be further down the road.

Listen to his conversations with Vivienne he exposes why she fears spirits and demons, She denies it over and over but he openly states she is lying.

You sound like Vivienne a little with that jab at Cole.

Just for a second, believe that Cole is telling the truth about Hardened Leliana, would you be willing to have her Hardened, tactical, ruthless if it leaves her damage and scarred, traumatized and just hide it? Just so she can do her job better? What after Thedas has finally calmed down and there is no big war or political discourse. You leave her injured because of it? She would need help after it all ends otherwise she could live her life with no friends and forget the happiness she used to have with friends.

So inconceivable to me that people like DA:I hardened Leliana, she is hurt and depressed as hardened. While I can definitely understand DA:O Hardened Leliana, since she is still happy because she technically letting herself go to being what she enjoyed in Orlais. She is happy in DA:O. In DA:I Not so much, its easy to see she is hiding pain (Her "Sign of weakness" at Haven for example.)
 

[wright1978]

Opinion? Yes he is naive to the complexity to the mortal mind, but he CAN SEE into their minds and see the raw truth. He can see the problem, the hurt of a person. These things are what he sees in Leliana.
...
Just for a second, believe that Cole is telling the truth about Hardened Leliana, would you be willing to have her Hardened, tactical, ruthless if it leaves her damage and scarred, traumatized and just hide it? Just so she can do her job better? What after Thedas has finally calmed down and there is no big war or political discourse. You leave her injured because of it? She would need help after it all ends otherwise she could live her life with no friends and forget the happiness she used to have with friends.

So inconceivable to me that people like DA:I hardened Leliana, she is hurt and depressed as hardened. While I can definitely understand DA:O Hardened Leliana, since she is still happy because she technically letting herself go to being what she enjoyed in Orlais. She is happy in DA:O. In DA:I Not so much, its easy to see she is hiding pain (Her "Sign of weakness" at Haven for example.)

Cole says, 'faith abandoned for folly' which comes across completely as opinion rather than fact.

I disagree most wholeheartedly with your suggestion that she's damaged, traumatised, injured. These are your projections.

I  see no reason she's going to abandon all former ties and am sure she's capable of happiness with her love with either choice.

She's hiding pain before making a decision towards hardened or unhardened path. She's not hurt and depressed as hardened, She's sure and confident in what she needs to do to achieve her goals.

[mrcrazyman]

Ultimately she's kind of written to satisfy both ways but the unhardened arc seems far more satisfying even just strictly looking at DAI. Although after some time to think about I've grown to appreciate the hardened path. I find it works well as a overcommitment/corruption of duty that takes advantage of darker parts of her past and has sort of changed her. But I very much prefer the unhardened. At the beginning she says how she doesn't like what she does but it must be done. Justinia and romanced Warden suggest she's a "good" or "better" person, Josie says similar stuff about how she sang in halls before this all started. But for me it comes down to what Cole the mind reading spirit says. If hardened Leliana goes on about what Justinia made her do and ends with "Death and deception are my trade. It is what I am. It is what I always will be" yet when you go to Cole his little blurb he can says is "The left hand is harder, harsher, faith fallen in folly. It makes the dreams worse but sends them away faster." Despite her apparent acceptance of murder persona, mentally it seems she's getting worse.

 

But when unhardened she says "I need to stay true to who I really am-before a spymaster, left hand or bard. I almost lost myself." And Cole changes to "The left hand blooms on the bush, remembering the light that shone in her darkness. She knows how to sing again."She's written both ways but it kind of feels that the unhardened is more true as the people closest to her and the mind reader seems to suggest this. I find the really interesting part is if her personal quest is skipped entirely and she becomes Divine-rather than kill off the sects like you would expect from the harder Leliana you see she instead does nothing about them and leaves them be(which causes the Chantry to be on the verge of falling apart mind you). Leliana's a strange character and may have some personality disorder/warped sense of duty. In Halamshiral Cole says "Leliana has many faces. When she puts on a new one, she changes all the way down." I don't really know if hardeneing/unhardening really amounts to a whole lot outside of the Divine as she is a woman of many faces and can change to suit whatever purpose. If I were to guess I'd say she's actually some combination of LS, Mota and unhardened DAO (I actually find "hardened" to be a much more weaker willed and puppet-like  rather than harder)

[GrinningRogue]

"The left hand blooms on the bush, remembering the light that shone in her darkness. She knows how to sing again."

 

I never realized this is an indicator whether or not she's hardened. I thought it refers to the events in Leliana's Song and before she got recruited by the warden. Good to know.

[mrcrazyman]

I never realized this is an indicator whether or not she's hardened. I thought it refers to the events in Leliana's Song and before she got recruited by the warden. Good to know.

 

His default line before her personal quest is definitely is a reference to her rescue from Dorthea and vision, "The Left Hand remembers a knife slipped to her in the darkness, and wonders why the flower blooms."  The unhardened line seems to be her remembering/accepting it and the brightness it means to her.