15912 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

It seriously is. Especially given how Zevran can end up the kept man of Cousland, and Hawke can have Fenris/Merrill on their arm...

 
Oh, thank you!

 

Although short-lived, also the Cousland Warden & Iona

[PickledGear]

Totally should have that flipped in the future, have a Dalish Keeper have a human lover every time they pass by a certain village somewhere in southern thedas haha.

[N7_Heartfire]

 

Well then, a Divine Leliana/Warden romance wouldn't seem out of place then. Seeing as how it won't be the first time the Divine has had a lover. And Leliana as Divine won't even bother to keep it a secret. She's able to have a relationship as easy as any other ordinary person given the amount of reforms she makes. :}

[WolfForce99]

Does anyone know what happens in DA:I if you kill Leliana off in DA:O's? I was wondering if she gets replaced or if no one show up at all to replace her?

[WardenHero]

Does anyone know what happens in DA:I if you kill Leliana off in DA:O's? I was wondering if she gets replaced or if no one show up at all to replace her?

 

Leliana will still be there in DAI alright, dead or alive.

Spoiler

If you talk to her about the Hero of Ferelden, she'll say she was revived in the Temple of Sacred Ashes and some scathing remarks about you.

 

[vertigomez]

Although short-lived, also the Cousland Warden & Iona

True, though I always considered that to be more of a bootycall than a potential long-term relationship...

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Leliana will still be there in DAI alright, dead or alive.

Spoiler

If you talk to her about the Hero of Ferelden, she'll say she was revived in the Temple of Sacred Ashes and some scathing remarks about you.
 

Ahhh...the dialogue I will never see. Meanie faces, all of them.

True, though I always considered that to be more of a bootycall than a potential long-term relationship...

Should also add Garahel to the list, who managed to get into the pants of both a Princess of Starkhaven AND the Queen of the Anderfels. Damn son.

[WardenHero]

I wonder how the Warden will react if they "killed" Leliana in DAO only to receive a note from her during the "Contact the Hero of Ferelden" war table quest. Maybe travelling to the western lands isn't so bad after all, you know, with the Breach in the sky and a certain someone returning from the dead waiting to kill you. *nervous laugh* 

 

Speaking of which... if Leliana becomes the next Divine, is going through other people's undergarments still her favourite pastime?

Huh... Divine Victoria. Victoria's Secret. 

Bad joke, KILL ME NOW. But it's still hot if you think about it...

[Lenimph]

:3 Just finished the game. 

 

I made Leliana the divine.  She was easily my favorite part of the game, followed by Cassandra.

[Spooky81]

As much as I like Leliana's ideas what she would change with the Chantry as Divine, it's naive and probably wouldn't work out.  Look at the relationship between Brialla and Celene and how she wanted the Empress to bring reform and changes for the city elves right away.  As progressive as Celene is, she knew human society wouldn't accept it at the pace Brialla wanted and that she'd lose alot of support and many nobles would turn against her.

 

IMO Cassandra's intentions as the new Divine are the best and even then, alot of people are resistant and move against her vision of change.

[PickledGear]

 

As much as I like Leliana's ideas what she would change with the Chantry as Divine, it's naive and probably wouldn't work out.  Look at the relationship between Brialla and Celene and how she wanted the Empress to bring reform and changes for the city elves right away.  As progressive as Celene is, she knew human society wouldn't accept it at the pace Brialla wanted and that she'd lose alot of support and many nobles would turn against her.

 

IMO Cassandra's intentions as the new Divine are the best and even then, alot of people are resistant and move against her vision of change.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. Gradual change over generations to get the future generations to accept the changes. Justinia V goal was this but she knew the Mage Templar War was going to happen no matter what so she had planned for the Inquisition to be made in case the Conclave failed as a Contingency.

Cassandra would change the disposition of the populous towards mages, elves over time, most likely have the Templar order set a precedent over it. Be the protectors of the innocent and do as what Knight Commander Barris (if you side with Templars) does and risk their own lives to protect mages who are being "Mage hunted" by the misinformed.
 

[Sports72Xtrm]

 

As much as I like Leliana's ideas what she would change with the Chantry as Divine, it's naive and probably wouldn't work out.  Look at the relationship between Brialla and Celene and how she wanted the Empress to bring reform and changes for the city elves right away.  As progressive as Celene is, she knew human society wouldn't accept it at the pace Brialla wanted and that she'd lose alot of support and many nobles would turn against her.

 

IMO Cassandra's intentions as the new Divine are the best and even then, alot of people are resistant and move against her vision of change.

 

That's just pessimism. How many mages from Ferelden's Circle contributed in the defense of the fifth Blight? Was it not the Circle mages who aided cassandra in protecting Orlais and the Chantry from treason (a note that is conveniently forgotten)? How many Ferelden refugees risk their lives to protect Anders when he was the Healer of the downtrodden? Mother Giselle quells the fears of magic and even that mother from Redcliffe, despite all that's happened, still is willing to give the mages a chance to govern themselves. People are not so stuck in their prejudiced ways. Leliana is a master of the Grand Game and knows how to change hearts and minds and her epilogue is the only one that is sure that all parties are never explicitly said to come to blows. It specifically says that her ideals take root while Cassandra is the one who is forced to make concessions and is being fought with. i don't know where this certainty that she will fail is coming from. The path to change is never easy but who's to say it's doomed before it even comes to pass? If given the truth, I have faith that mages can be accepted. Racial diversities can be overcome, Martin Luther King proved it among many others.

[Spooky81]

That's just pessimism. How many mages from Ferelden's Circle contributed in the defense of the fifth Blight? Was it not the Circle mages who aided cassandra in protecting Orlais and the Chantry from treason (a note that is conveniently forgotten)? How many Ferelden refugees risk their lives to protect Anders when he was the Healer of the downtrodden? Mother Giselle quells the fears of magic and even that mother from Redcliffe, despite all that's happened, still is willing to give the mages a chance to govern themselves. People are not so stuck in their prejudiced ways. Leliana is a master of the Grand Game and knows how to change hearts and minds and her epilogue is the only one that is sure that all parties are never explicitly said to come to blows. It specifically says that her ideals take root while Cassandra is the one who is forced to make concessions and is being fought with. i don't know where this certainty that she will fail is coming from. The path to change is never easy but who's to say it's doomed before it even comes to pass? If given the truth, I have faith that mages can be accepted. Racial diversities can be overcome, Martin Luther King proved it among many others.

 

My argument isn't that it can't be done, it's that implementing such change and getting society to accept and mold with it it too fast won't work.  If MLK attempted what he did 100 years before, it would have gone down in flames.  How many decades after the abolishment of slavery were African Americans still treated like second class citizens and denied basic human rights?  It took many decades and the toiling and blood of alot of human rights activists to get to where MLK could start tearing down the walls of racial barriers.

[Sports72Xtrm]

My argument isn't that it can't be done, it's that implementing such change and getting society to accept and mold with it it too fast won't work.  If MLK attempted what he did 100 years before, it would have gone down in flames.  How many decades after the abolishment of slavery were African Americans still treated like second class citizens and denied basic human rights?  It took many decades and the toiling and blood of alot of human rights activists to get to where MLK could start tearing down the walls of racial barriers.

There is no measurable way to judge if society is more or less open to change. One can only get the ball moving. Not even trying means procrastinating and change will never happen. Someone has to take the first step. It will either be a triumph or be remembered as a time when people resisted change like when people thought the world was flat. At the very least, the truth of whether society can accept free mages will be revealed. Either way. it will serve as a learning experience for humanity and mages. Fear can only hinder progress.

 

Like Prince Bhelen and any instigator of change, it carries risk but as Leliana says about the Grand Game: those that play play for the highest stakes and to the death.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I'm quite happy with Cassandra as my canon Divine. She seems the most reasonable to me, and the least likely to end up with a knife in her gullet while still making positive changes.

...as I said on the last page, though, the politics are one thing - my reasoning didn't go very far beyond 'I didn't want Leliana/Warden hell-yeah adventures 2.0 to be cancelled.' :S

[Jaron Oberyn]

I'm quite happy with Cassandra as my canon Divine. She seems the most reasonable to me, and the least likely to end up with a knife in her gullet while still making positive changes.

...as I said on the last page, though, the politics are one thing - my reasoning didn't go very far beyond 'I didn't want Leliana/Warden hell-yeah adventures 2.0 to be cancelled.' :S

You think anyone would be able to come close to harming a Leliana divine? Let alone the hardened one? If anything I think Leliana/Vivienne would be the most difficult to assassinate. 

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Not unless someone was really good, no. I figure there'd be more than a few attempts, though...probably more than both of the others.

[PickledGear]

You think anyone would be able to come close to harming a Leliana divine? Let alone the hardened one? If anything I think Leliana/Vivienne would be the most difficult to assassinate. 

Yes but a romanced divine Leliana has 1 weakness. That is the Warden. Yes the Warden can defend themselves skillfully but no one is infallible. If someone with the power and drive wanted to make a blow against Victoria that is their key. Then the variable of whether Leliana is hardened or unhardened comes in to play as well.

 

Then there is also getting at those close to the Warden to get to the Divine as well. Like for a Cousland Warden it is their brother Fergus.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Yes but a romanced divine Leliana has 1 weakness. That is the Warden. Yes the Warden can defend themselves skillfully but no one is infallible. If someone with the power and drive wanted to make a blow against Victoria that is their key. Then the variable of whether Leliana is hardened or unhardened comes in to play as well.

 

Then there is also getting at those close to the Warden to get to the Divine as well. Like for a Cousland Warden it is their brother Fergus.

I don't know, even with all of that I still think Leliana is probably the safest when it comes to that. She's an assassin herself, she would know what to look out for. Vivienne is very ruthless in her dealings as well. Cass to me seems the most likely out of the 3 to be successfully killed. But thats just my take. 

[PickledGear]

I don't know, even with all of that I still think Leliana is probably the safest when it comes to that. She's an assassin herself, she would know what to look out for. Vivienne is very ruthless in her dealings as well. Cass to me seems the most likely out of the 3 to be successfully killed. But thats just my take. 

And "Seeker Cassandra" would not see the coming threats? If anything she'd be more then aware of it all. Probably would pull a sword out of a guarding Templar's sheath to fight the assassin herself.

Vivienne is the one I see where she has a big advantage over any assassination. She could just freeze any assailant like she did with that noble in her recruitment mission. The threat of her being a mage probably has plenty of people rethinking their approach towards her.

[Jaron Oberyn]

And "Seeker Cassandra" would not see the coming threats? If anything she'd be more then aware of it all. Probably would pull a sword out of a guarding Templar's sheath to fight the assassin herself.

Vivienne is the one I see where she has a big advantage over any assassination. She could just freeze any assailant like she did with that noble in her recruitment mission. The threat of her being a mage probably has plenty of people rethinking their approach towards her.

Cassandra seems to be the most naive out of the three. It isn't so much seeing the coming threat as it is preventing a successful attempt. 

[Voragoras]

There is no measurable way to judge if society is more or less open to change. One can only get the ball moving. Not even trying means procrastinating and change will never happen. Someone has to take the first step. It will either be a triumph or be remembered as a time when people resisted change like when people thought the world was flat. At the very least, the truth of whether society can accept free mages will be revealed. Either way. it will serve as a learning experience for humanity and mages. Fear can only hinder progress.

 

Like Prince Bhelen and any instigator of change, it carries risk but as Leliana says about the Grand Game: those that play play for the highest stakes and to the death.

 

There's a difference between "not trying" and "moving forward slowly". If you try and change things too quickly, and too bullheadedly, you risk doing the exact opposite of what you intend and creating even more resentment against the groups you're trying to protect. Being progressive doesn't always mean being radical.

[Sports72Xtrm]

There's a difference between "not trying" and "moving forward slowly". If you try and change things too quickly, and too bullheadedly, you risk doing the exact opposite of what you intend and creating even more resentment against the groups you're trying to protect. Being progressive doesn't always mean being radical.

How many times should the mages try to prove themselves before all their good will evaporates by the unsavory actions of a few? The Circles have been around for ages and the pros and cons of mage freedom has been argued ad nauseam. It's a false hope that things will get better eventually with the status quo to keep the mages placated. The vicious cycle of trying to find common ground but refusing to relent because of petty reasons like not wanting to feel coerced just leads to more conflict. People like Lambert will try to stop mages from being respected on the grounds that they prefer them docile and ostracized, mages will resist, and war will resume. Mages don't have a precedence of having a legal Constitution of rights which are easily expendable on the grounds of expedience because that is what the fundamental reason the Circle is based on,- the safety of the mundanes supersede the mages' rights as equals. Of course, the mundanes will always count on their templars to always quell the mage resistance, but who knows what a mage resistance can do when pushed. Mages will scratch and claw for more political power if not given independence. Either those that see the abuses for what they are will try to monopolize political power, capitalizing on Vivienne's means to power or go the Tevinter route and try to conquer the south through magic and force. Maybe both. Change is a proactive activity not a spectator sport. I don't know how the southern mages delude themselves into believing that they will be respected through pacifist means if the mage rebellion who tried to win the south's trust failed in doing so. As Vaas says:

[Voragoras]

^ There also hasn't been a wide-spread mage rebellion against the Templars before, either, or a Divine fully and utterly committed to change (either Cassandra or Leliana). Like other posters have said, Cassandra is giving mages more freedom - gradually.

 

I sure am glad you've posted that Far Cry graphic, though! Completely changed my mind.

[Spooky81]

^ There also hasn't been a wide-spread mage rebellion against the Templars before, either, or a Divine fully and utterly committed to change (either Cassandra or Leliana). Like other posters have said, Cassandra is giving mages more freedom - gradually.

 

I sure am glad you've posted that Far Cry graphic, though! Completely changed my mind.

 

 

What he said.  

 

We've been saying progression in the way Cassandra is offering mages the liberty of governing themselves, prohibiting templars from being as abusive as they were, and not having the Chantry spell out every rule on what they can and can't do.