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[Sports72Xtrm]

Leliana's reforms are rather quick and sudden as far as "brash" goes. It's chaotic (it happens in Cass' and Viv's case as well) but we don't know the outcomes for each of them yet. Are they successful? Or is still an ongoing chaos where innocents got stuck in between like the Ferelden refugees during Mage-Templar war?

 

Most battles declared by the Divine are carried out by Templars and Seekers. By declaring the independence of both Mages and Templars from the Chantry... let's just hope the Divine knows where to get her manpower to carry out her will. Mages alone aren't enough to carry out the Divine's will. With the Mages running freely, are the Templars and Seekers okay with that? If not, are they willing to help the Divine should she need some killing done? Are the Templars and Seekers ready to accept Leliana's reforms? The epilogue didn't say much on whether Leliana's reforms are successful (what a cliffhanger...) so here's hoping.

Well in the unhardened version it says that her ideals take root and the hardened version it says that the chantry is having a secret war among itself. The world is like the Friends of Red Jenny, all people with their own agendas. Leadership is a collective and never ending process.

• Solas: I heard about your organization, Sera. I am impressed.
• Sera: Is this a trick?
• Solas: Hardly. But it is an opportunity. You have already divided your group's membership. That is wise. No one cell can betray all your secrets. The next step is to establish a rhythm.

When your enemies pursue, you vanish. When they become complacent, you harass them. When they are weak, you strike in earnest.

• Sera: Where d'you get all this, then?
• Solas: Do you wish to be unnerved by another tale of my explorations of the Fade? Or do you wish to learn something?
• Sera: I don't know. Neither?

───────

• Solas: Once you have the aristocracy weakened, Sera, you will have to redirect your lieutenants.
• Sera: Oh, this again. All right, what am I doing?
• Solas: Some of your forces, valuable until now, have no interests beyond creating disruption. Chaos for its own sake. They must be repositioned where they can do no harm, or removed if necessary. You replace them with organizers willing to build a new system and carry out the ugly work that must be done.
• Sera: What? Why? What ugly work?
• Solas: That is up to you. Do you wish to disrupt the nobility, secure a title? Or change the political structure entirely?
• Sera: None of it! I don't want any of that!

The Inquisition at least has managed to garner the allegiance of many of these sects and the trick to peace is to garner a rhythm where if one party goes against the collective interests of the others, then you must do the "dirty" work of removing them when necessary. Now ask yourself, what happens if the templars and seekers, or at least some are ok with mages running freely? Like Evangeline who in my opinion could become a seeker and thinks that freeing mages coincides with the Seeker's rededicated purpose of "justice for all". Or even nations such as Kirkwall or Ferelden or possibly even Orlais. The mages if they prove themselves (which they do if you save Fiona's rebel mages) need not be alone in their fight for dignity and neither I doubt they would abandon any who supported them when they were persecuted. Mages can make bad mistakes Varric says but he also notes that they're loyal friends.

[WardenHero]

Well in the unhardened version it says that her ideals take root and the hardened version it says that the chantry is having a secret war among itself.

 
Infighting will only bring the Chantry down. She knows that when she served the Inquisition. The killing has to stop some day. But sadly, it's either killed or be killed in the Grand Game.
 

The Inquisition at least has managed to garner the allegiance of many of these sects and the trick to peace is to garner a rhythm where if one party goes against the collective interests of the others, then you must do the "dirty" work of removing them when necessary.

I don't know about you but in my playthrough where I made Leliana the next Divine, the Inquisitor offered her an army after Corypheus was defeated should she need it but she declined. Another question is, will the Inquisition stay on as long as Leliana's on the Sunburst Throne? Shouldn't it disband once order has been restored throughout all of Thedas? With all the resistance Leliana/Victoria faced, does she still have enough manpower to remove "obstacles"? How long can she keep this up?
 

Now ask yourself, what happens if the templars and seekers, or at least some are ok with mages running freely? Or even nations such as Kirkwall or Ferelden or possibly even Orlais. The mages if they prove themselves not be alone in their fight for dignity and neither I doubt they would abandon any who supported them when they were persecuted. Mages can make bad mistakes Varric says but they're loyal friends.

Templars/Seekers who sympathize with the mages are in the minority(whatever happened in DA II proved that much). Like I said before it still remains to be seen. Are the mage sympathizers enough to drown out the voice of the opposition? If so, Leliana's reforms can't be subverted easily since many approve of the reforms. Even if the mage sympathizers outnumber those who don't, then why are the mages locked up in Circles at the first place? Why didn't those sympathizers defend their fellow mages from the very beginning? After the Mage-Templar war, I doubt both parties (Templars/Seekers & Mages) would readily cooperate with each other under a single banner. Politics will come into play here. Getting everyone to play nice is difficult. Assassinating the ones who don't agree with you... well, haven't the Chantry done enough already? Kill, kill, kill... Leliana/Victoria did mention she wanted to change the Chantry, to make it more "charitable". With all the stab-kill going on, ain't that hypocritical? Won't people lose faith in the Chantry? All they see behind that holy and preachy facade, it's just another abattoir.

 

We won't know which is good or bad anyhow. Every candidate has its pros and cons. There's no "best" candidate to fill the Divine's shoes either. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

 
Infighting will only bring the Chantry down. She knows that when she served the Inquisition. The killing has to stop some day. But sadly, it's either killed or be killed in the Grand Game.

And yet in her epilogue she says "unity is maintained" whether through changing of hearts and minds or assassination.

 

I don't know about you but in my playthrough where I made Leliana the next Divine, the Inquisitor offered her an army after Corypheus was defeated should she need it but she declined.

Didn't you just say the chantry should stop with the killing? Why would she need the Inquisitions' armies? She seems capable of protecting herself both politically and physically with many devout followers behind her. Those elves, dwarves, Tal-Vashoth who were persecuted against in the chantry, her expansive spy network, and the mages granted their freedom will be stalwart allies to her. It never explicitly said her reforms were unpopular either.

 

 

 

Another question is, will the Inquisition stay on as long as Leliana's on the Sunburst Throne? Shouldn't it disband once order has been restored throughout all of Thedas?

The Inquisition stays on no matter what in the epilogue. What gives you the impression it was to disband?

And what of the Inquisition itself?"

Connections has the most Inquisition perks

"Its web of influence is felt in every hall. Through diplomacy and the trading of favors, it has gathered the power to shake kingdoms."

 

Secrets has the most Inquisition perks

"It has eyes and ears in every hall. No secrets are beyond its reach, and that knowledge has become the source of its power."

 

Forces has the most Inquisition perks

"Its military might has grown, now rivaling that of kingdoms. Fear of the Inquisition's army has become the true source of its power."

 

"I leave Skyhold now, knowing that power will continue to grow."

"The Inquisitor is a symbol to many, a leader of the changing world order."

"To others, (s)he has become a target."

"They linger in the shadows, waiting for their day to come."

"When it does, the Inquisition shall stand ready."

 

 

 

 

Templars/Seekers who sympathize with the mages are in the minority(whatever happened in DA II proved that much).

The mage underground and Thrask's templars supporters shows that templars can side with mages and weren't the minority. It was only because they got slaughtered by Meredith's forces.

[WardenHero]

Didn't you just say the chantry should stop with the killing?

Yes but Leliana has to resort to bloodshed to keep her reforms remember? She will use peaceful means when unhardened but how long will the peace last?
 

Why would she need the Inquisitions' armies?

Who else will carry out her will? The Templars/Seekers? Are they willing to help out in the first place? Mages? Don't you think their numbers are too little? 
 

She seems capable of protecting herself both politically and physically with many devout followers behind her. Those elves, dwarves, Tal-Vashoth who were persecuted against in the chantry and the mages granted their freedom will be stalwart allies to her.

Are they enough to back the Divine to begin with? The human race outnumbers the others in Thedas. It's in the description during the character creation. Devout followers can defend her ideals and not all can defend her physically. 
 

The Inquisition stays on no matter what in the epilogue. What gives you the impression it was to disband?
And what of the Inquisition itself?"

Read the history. The first Inquisition disbanded. The Inquisition is a powerful force. Left unchecked it can be a threat. I discussed this topic before with GrinningRogue in this very thread and I won't go through it again. T'is not the right place. Also, a conversation with Mother Giselle also revealed something about the first Inquisition disbanded.

 

 

About the epilogue that says "bla bla bla the Inquisition shall stand ready..."? That's just Bioware's way of saying there are more DLCs to come.

 

The mage underground and Thrask's templars supporters shows that templars can side with mages and weren't the minority. It was only because they got slaughtered by Meredith's forces.

The fact that they were slaughtered it's because they were outnumbered. Doesn't that mean they are still a minority? Even if mage sympathizers outnumber those who are not, then pray tell, why do the Circles exist in the very first place?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Yes but Leliana has to resort to bloodshed to keep her reforms remember? She will use peaceful means when unhardened but how long will the peace last?
 

Depends on her nemesis. The escalation of force will only occur if her opposition threatens to use force. Isn't that justice? If people could be reasonable with out resorting to violence, the Inquisition wouldn't have had to kill Corypheus or mortals wouldn't wage wars. Other divines like cass and Viv will also resort to violence, I just trust Leliana to use it only when necessary. And before you say well Lel does use force unnecessarily, I will counter with only if you harden her.

 

 

Who else will carry out her will? The Templars/Seekers? Are they willing to help out in the first place? Mages? Don't you think their numbers are too little

 

Mages, non humans, maybe templars/seekers, maybe Grey Wardens who respect her contributions who defeated the Blight, maybe members of the Inquisition who served under her. She has supporters, why so pessimistic about her approval? It's not like she's the most friendless divine ever.

 

 

Are they enough to back the Divine to begin with? The human race outnumbers the others in Thedas. It's in the description during the character creation.

 

 Well there's no statistical data to back that up and even if they were, it's an assuption most of them would oppose her.
 

Read the history. The first Inquisition disbanded. The Inquisition is a powerful force. Left unchecked it can be a threat. I discussed with GrinningRogue regarding this topic before in this thread and I won't go through it again. T'is not the right place. Also, a conversation with Mother Giselle also revealed that.

 

That was the old Inquisition, the new Inquisition can do better. Do we slaughter, imprison, or conscript everything that displeases us? Grey Wardens do some bad **** but they still get a free pass because we need them to fight blights. Seekers were corrupt to the core but some elect to salvage the organization because red templars and bad templars and bad mages. Mother Giselle said that the chantry after being content with being a political bludgeon enabled by the inquisition lost its way. Some new organizers and the new Inquisition's job is to put them back on track, which imo is Leliana's way "Encourage good not rebuke sins".

 

The fact that they were slaughtered it's because they were outnumbered. Doesn't that mean they are still a minority?

 

a lot of factors played into it, Grace being an abomination, Meredith's totalitarian control over the city. Two Grey Wardens stopped the fifth blight when they were branded as fugitives by the government. Let them be an example of what a minority can do. If they were a minority, then a minority can overcome obstacles but only if they try.

[WardenHero]

Depends on her nemesis. The escalation of force will only occur if her opposition threatens to use force. Isn't that justice? If people could be reasonable with out resorting to violence, the Inquisition wouldn't have had to kill Corypheus or mortals wouldn't wage wars. Other divines like cass and Viv will also resort to violence, I just trust Leliana to use it only when necessary.

Leliana resorting to violence is mostly for "silencing" the opposition, regardless if they threatened to use force or not. This has nothing to do with "justice". It's called "politics". Religion mashed with politics is rather distasteful for most people.
 

Mages, non humans, maybe templars/seekers, maybe Grey Wardens who respect her contributions who defeated the Blight, maybe members of the Inquisition who served under her.

 

 Grey Wardens are out of the picture here. They killed the previous Divine. Most people aren't happy with that. Also, the Divine's based in Orlais.

 

Spoiler

The Inquisitor can choose to have the Order kicked out of Orlais which makes recruiting the Order as her supporter a moot point.

 
 

a lot of factors played into it, Grace being an abomination, Meredith's totalitarian control over the city. Two Grey Wardens stopped the fifth blight when they were branded as fugitives by the government. If they were a minority, then a minority can overcome obstacles but only if they try.

 

Whether the minority failed despite how hard they tried depends on the players' choice (whether you sided with the Templars or the Mages in DA II & DAI).
 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Leliana resorting to violence is mostly for "silencing" the opposition, regardless if they threatened to use force or not. This has nothing to do with "justice". It's called "politics". Religion mashed with politics is rather distasteful for most people.

 

The chantry has been "silencing" people for ages. "politics" at least should be checked with balances which is what the Inquisition, and her new Chantry is for. The chantry under her does not dictate, it encourages. Hardened Leliana is not the same as unhardened Leliana which is why I don't know why you insist Leliana always resorts to "silencing" people as an absolute. Imo, as zevran says, some people just need assassinating. Or do you disagree that there are no evil people in the world that need assassinating?

 

 

Grey Wardens are out of the picture here. They killed the previous Divine. Most people aren't happy with that. Also, the Divine's based in Orlais.

 

Spoiler

The Inquisitor can choose to have the Order kicked out of Orlais which makes recruiting the Order as her supporter a moot point.

 
 

 

Whether the minority failed despite how hard they tried depends on the players' choice (whether you sided with the Templars or the Mages in DA II & DAI).

 

 

And the player can also choose to do the opposite of what your player chose. Grey wardens can still be part of the picture, never the less, my point still stands that Leliana has supporters. Josephine among them, Inquisition agents, nonhumans, mages. Why underestimate that?

[WardenHero]

Grey wardens can still be part of the picture, never the less, my point still stands that Leliana has supporters. Josephine among them, Inquisition agents, nonhumans, mages. Why underestimate that?

 

The Order is known for their neutrality. If supporting the Divine benefits the Order, sure why not. Seeing as the Grey Wardens were greatly affected after all that's happened in DAI, rebuilding is their main priority. Also they have some internal conflict going on. Calling on them for support will be a tad too difficult. 

 

The Inquisitor can refuse to support her as the next Divine and yet if you choose to go through the storyline which pretty much favours her ideals (support mages, ally with the Grey Wardens, siding with Briala), she will still be elected as the new Divine regardless. If that really is the case, I'm not sure whether I can count the Inquisition in her list of steadfast allies.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Order is known for their neutrality. If supporting the Divine benefits the Order, sure why not. Seeing as the Grey Wardens were greatly affected after all that's happened in DAI, rebuilding is their main priority. Also they have some internal conflict going on. Calling on them for support will be a tad too difficult. 

 

The Inquisitor can refuse to support her as the next Divine and yet if you choose to go through the storyline which pretty much favours her ideals (support mages, ally with the Grey Wardens, siding with Briala), she will still be elected as the new Divine regardless. If that really is the case, I'm not sure whether I can count the Inquisition in her list of steadfast allies.

Well as the former leader of the Inquisition's espionage forces, she was never reliant on the Inquisitor's approval to maintain her success as Divine unlike Cassandra and Vivienne. She's a master of the grand game, and if your Inquisitor chooses not to support her, I think she'll still be ok. Many with in the Inquisition might even choose to leave the Inquisition to follow her and things will be fine if people live and let live. Though if you choose to be an enemy as well then The Grand Game demands a response. And as all things, whatever way the wind blows determines the victor. I just do not share your pessimism about Leliana's chances of her reforms. Whatever way the wind blows is a collective of a bunch of factors people cannot enumerate.

[WardenHero]

And as all things, whatever way the wind blows determines the victor. I just do not share your pessimism about Leliana's chances of her reforms. Whatever way the wind blows is a collective of a bunch of factors people cannot enumerate.

 

The epilogue didn't state whether her reforms are well received/successful either. We'll just have to see how it pans out in the coming series. 

[WardenHero]

 Check this out. I've sent Leliana to complete the quest "The Big One?" about getting a nuggalope mount. And this was in her report. I wonder whether she's going to keep one as pet, alongside Schmooples II and Boulette.
 

Spoiler

Has anybody tried sending other advisors instead?

[TheKomandorShepard]

The chantry has been "silencing" people for ages. "politics" at least should be checked with balances which is what the Inquisition, and her new Chantry is for. The chantry under her does not dictate, it encourages. Hardened Leliana is not the same as unhardened Leliana which is why I don't know why you insist Leliana always resorts to "silencing" people as an absolute. Imo, as zevran says, some people just need assassinating. Or do you disagree that there are no evil people in the world that need assassinating?

 

 

And the player can also choose to do the opposite of what your player chose. Grey wardens can still be part of the picture, never the less, my point still stands that Leliana has supporters. Josephine among them, Inquisition agents, nonhumans, mages. Why underestimate that?

There is no such thing as evil outside human mind for 1 person another may be evil for another person same person may be good and we are talking about person that suggests cutting the tongue of bard (not orlesian bard) because he insults inquisition.As viviene put that leliana is naive and well-meaning fool and it can go only poorly in long-term hell even dorian knows how leliana solution on mage problem will end hell even epilogue knows that.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I'm okay with Leli and Warden not getting a traditional happy ever after... or at least having it postponed for a while longer (which would really make their reunion all the sweeter!). I like Leliana as Divine Victoria from a narrative point of view, even if comes at the cost of the her and the protagonist's happiness.

Lol I'm just a glutton for punishment.

 

Bah, it's been years of separation and general unhappiness for them already. I say just let them be happy now, IMO. Enough of that greater calling stuff, they just need to retire, preferably somewhere warm. 

[MissDragon]

 Check this out. I've sent Leliana to complete the quest "The Big One?" about getting a nuggalope mount. And this was in her report. I wonder whether she's going to keep one as pet, alongside Schmooples II and Boulette.
 

Spoiler

Has anybody tried sending other advisors instead?

 I havn't had the this quest so I don't know WardenHero.  But I would like to know.

[LadyStoneheart]

 Check this out. I've sent Leliana to complete the quest "The Big One?" about getting a nuggalope mount. And this was in her report. I wonder whether she's going to keep one as pet, alongside Schmooples II and Boulette.
 

Spoiler

Has anybody tried sending other advisors instead?

 

Not me, after that nug-shaped lure appeared in front of me at the shop I couldn't resist choosing Leliana to take care of this. It just felt right.   But I think the mission report is the same no matter which advisor you choose.

[wright1978]

Bah, it's been years of separation and general unhappiness for them already. I say just let them be happy now, IMO. Enough of that greater calling stuff, they just need to retire, preferably somewhere warm.

I see no reason why they can't be big goddarn heroes and have a private life. Never been a fan of the retire sedately notion.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I see no reason why they can't be big goddarn heroes and have a private life. Never been a fan of the retire sedately notion.

 

The last bit was kind of a joke. I'm sure they'd still get up to all kinds of nonsense afterwards, Divine Victoria or no, just finally together again for it. It's to be expected. :S

[GenericEnemy]

 

*still melted into a puddle* 

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Damn straight nothing will.

[desire for reunion scene intensifies]

[TheKomandorShepard]

Damn straight nothing will.

[desire for reunion scene intensifies]

Yes nothing except dragon age 4.

Pretty much from what i recall smiliar thing she said in dao epilogue if you romanced her.  

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

DA4 is going to be in the north anyway, I doubt they'd do that again. Way more final sounding this time.

Yeh damn glass-half-empty stick in the mud.

[Basement Cat]

Damn straight nothing will.

[desire for reunion scene intensifies]

Even if the Warden is not shown onscreen and the reunion is implied I would be happy. Like Leliana opens the door to her room, peeks inside and says 'my darling. you're here at last' or something like that.

[Mr.House]

The twist, HoF gets shot by a random arrow on their way back with the cure.

 

Leli re-harden!

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Even if the Warden is not shown onscreen and the reunion is implied I would be happy. Like Leliana opens the door to her room, peeks inside and says 'my darling. you're here at last' or something like that.

I was hoping this would happen. I just wanna see her happy. ;_;

The twist, HoF gets shot by a random arrow on their way back with the cure.
 
Leli re-harden!

Man, all y'all being pessimistic this fine Christmas morning/afternoon/night/whenever. :S

[Basement Cat]

I was hoping this would happen. I just wanna see her happy. ;_;
 

I'd be happier still if we just, ahem, overheard their reunion. Know what I mean? Wink wink, nudge nudge.