15916 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

The spymaster is watching you...

 

 

 

 

(All editing done in-game, inc. the vignette. You can do some cool things with the various screenshot and shader tools.)

[Nightingale]

The principle is good but the execution isn't so good. I mean, why does the fate of the Wardens have anything to do with it? Why are the Inquisitor's chats with Dorian part of it? There's just no real sense of a logical cause and effect

Generally I think it works well for strong Mage supporters who allied with the Mages - you get Leliana and it's fairly obvious why you got Leliana. Even though I didn't want Leliana to win on my first game (because she was crazy and stabby*) I was OK with it because it fit with the other choices. But in other scenarios it can seem little more than random - and if you don't chat to Vivienne very much her victory could totally blindside you.

*Though I'm not keen of hardened Leliana, I do like her reaction when you refuse to support her. Something like "Well, it's a good thing it's not your decision then". Is it the same if she's softened?

 

I agree, it could have been implemented better. My first run I'd given the mages a full alliance, reunited Celene and Briala, allied with the Wardens, was generally "the Chantry needs to go/change" when it didn't affect approval (in which case, I just said whatever would please whomever I was talking to ) and supported both Cassandra and Leliana. By all logic, Leliana should have been the one on the Sunburst Throne and, after some panic trying to change that without any indication I had, Cassandra ended up Divine anyway somehow. I understand the conversations with Dorian, Vivienne, etc. were to establish your character and make things easier to sway from a technical standpoint, but...meh.

 

And yes, a softened Leliana is still "oh that's nice, dear. So when I'm Divine, this is how it's going to be... "

 

Personally, I actually think these choices do a disservice.

 

I think Bioware in general needs to stop with this....Not just Dragon age but also Mass Effect where you can weirdly remake the world so completely....

 

But then again, given the reactions to DAII, I'm willing to bet "local" heroes are not an option for future bioware games.

 

I think that's a shame, really. I've always preferred the more personal protags. Origins did it well because you can determine so much about your Warden and I'm in the minority that actually really liked Hawke as a character. At least with Shepard, you got to determine a general background and attitude and had three games with them. The Inquisitor fell flat for me and making such world-altering decisions was not helpful - especially when they can't possibly address it all (variables and all that) in future installments. I guess if we're moving north, though, it won't matter much in the end.

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

While I can understand why some dislike the candidates that were given for the choice. I cannot fathom why some dislike the system that was used for the choice (barring any related to bugs). I thought it was quite refreshing to have the choice not be made directly, but instead was influenced by the state of the world (which we did have an active role in choosing). It actually helps give a sense that there are other people out there than the inquisition with their own will and agenda, who while might be influenced by your choices, is not actually bound to them.

 

For such a huge choice, I find that rather believable in a way.

 

I can understand major choices like mages/templars and the ruler of Orlais making a difference. That's cool. But the game monitoring everything you say or do, even in private conversations, is bloody annoying.

 

I don't want Leliana as Divine. I try to avoid it as best I can. My canon run is a Dalish Mage. She doesn't identify with mages too much, but she does with elves, and feels some sympathy towards mages. Some. But unfortunately, I have to restrict how I play my character because I don't want to give Leliana too many points. Saying elf-ey things even in private goes towards her. It starts becoming less 'cool my choices matter!' and more flat-out infuriating how you get restricted so much.

 

And until the save-game tool came out that let me analyze who's gaining points, every game felt like Divine Roulette because I had no idea what was effecting what, how to avoid this, etc. Maybe some people like that kind of thing, but I certainly don't.

[Korva]

While I can understand why some dislike the candidates that were given for the choice. I cannot fathom why some dislike the system that was used for the choice (barring any related to bugs). I thought it was quite refreshing to have the choice not be made directly, but instead was influenced by the state of the world (which we did have an active role in choosing). It actually helps give a sense that there are other people out there than the inquisition with their own will and agenda, who while might be influenced by your choices, is not actually bound to them.

 

Agreed, but I also agree with the folks who think the implementation leaves something to be desired. It's partly another problem with the almost criminally underdeveloped main story. The Divine election should not be influenced by private conversations with people who don't even have a nug in the race, but by decision and actions that are (or at least have a chance to become) public enough to reach the right ears. With the plot being so pathetically short, and lacking any direct Chantry involvement aside from that very brief "meeting" in Val Royeaux, there's a definite lack of such decisions beyond the three big ones we do get.

 

I enjoy this game very much, but at the same time I get a bit depressed when I imagine what it could have been if they'd ditched the pointless optional filler content and the hand-holding exposition vomit from an unwanted, plot-stealing intruder (Morrigan) in favor of a stronger, deeper, longer main plot with more direct ties to more areas. More moments that could credibly influence the election could have been one result of that.

 

Your linked opinion on Vivienne makes some good points, too, though I would never trust her enough to make her an advisor or otherwise give her access to Inquisition resources. My impression when I first met her was that a politician like that absolutely has some ulterior motive for joining us, and it would have been good if Leliana and Josie would have caught wind of it at some point, i.e. discovered that Vivienne is trying to make a move for the Sunburst Throne. Leliana in particular could have used a few scenes to bolster her intended image as a master spy ... as it is, I know various people think she's crap at the job and fails all the time, and that's just not good writing.

 

I definitely felt Giselle was heading towards being the next divine during the big singalong.

 

I had that impression even earlier, and I still think it's a shame that she's basically a red herring. She has faith and a willingness to examine her beliefs instead of blindly following doctrine, knows how to inspire and teach, wants to help people and doesn't hesitate to risk herself in the process, joins the Inquisition very early and thus benefits from the same close-to-the-Herald "halo" as the other three do. And she was apparently pretty close to Justinia, too. I'd have supported her in a heartbeat.

 

As it is, I reluctantly go with (softened) Leliana because she'd likely be better at, and less frustrated with, that position than Cassandra. Cass is just too honest and straightforward to be a politician, which the Divine has to be. Plus, I prefer the notion of her reforming the Seekers, bringing them into the Inquisition, and remaining there as an irreplaceable friend, advisor and second-in-command. Softened Leliana, like Cassandra, has a deep faith and obviously wants to do good with it, and unlike our dear Seeker she knows all the politician's and assassin's tricks to stay alive in the cesspool of politics.

[wright1978]

While I can understand why some dislike the candidates that were given for the choice. I cannot fathom why some dislike the system that was used for the choice (barring any related to bugs). I thought it was quite refreshing to have the choice not be made directly, but instead was influenced by the state of the world (which we did have an active role in choosing). It actually helps give a sense that there are other people out there than the inquisition with their own will and agenda, who while might be influenced by your choices, is not actually bound to them.

 

For such a huge choice, I find that rather believable in a way.

 

Agree completely. For me it was completely fitting for the opinions the inquisitor espouses  and the decisions they make are what influence the thoughts of the conclave. I'm very thankful they went for this approach rather than not allowing any say by railroading a weak character like Giselle or having an overt pick a candidate approach.

[Uccio]

It still is kind of funny how the numerous reverent mothers were bypassed by three options outside chantry. Two of whom said clearly they were not serving the chantry but the divine herself, one being a mage. Not forgetting the numerous nobles and kings who probably had their own candidate in this sudden possibility to expand their own influence inside the chantry. It just is way too shoehorned from the devs. 

[Korva]

Yes, while it'd be impossible to consider every potential candidate, I really didn't like the fact that there wasn't even a single one from outside the Inquisition. Surely there are some with enough ambition, support and/or political savviness to try and fill the void left by the Conclave, like that Grand Cleric whom Natalie works for. Maybe they didn't want to give us an "antagonist" in this issue? But seeing as how they're willing to utterly blindside players via Vivienne, having an outsider "steal" the position if we don't play our cards right would not be so different.

[Bleachrude]

Does Divine Leliana allow for male priests...the epilogue slide states she opens the chantry to all races but doesn't mention whether or not men can take senior positions in the church

[Korva]

If memory serves, Mother Giselle is the only one who explicitly talks about men in the actual priesthood, but it would surprise me if Leliana didn't get rid of that restriction too.

[Delphine]

I wonder too, would fit her view, I think, to get rid of the male restriction.

 

On my first playthrough, I had Cass as Divine, and wasn't too pleased about it. But I had Leliana hardened, so I definitely would NOT have liked her to become divine either. Cass to me is the "Meh, ok" choice. She can change things, but not too much. And that not too much, isn't enough for me.
Hence why on my second playthrough, I did everything I could to get Leliana unhardened, and get her as Divine, which I did. I'm quite happy with the result, as she does major changes that my mage elf inquisitor definitely agree to. (oh the clashs I had while talking to Vivienne...)

To some, Leliana might be too radical, but I like that. She challenges the status quo in a great way, but I also did not want her to keep thinking you have to kill everybody to have your way.

 

Call me too idealistic, I don't care, but the status quo has to go either way.

Wondering how it'll impact future games, if it ever does.

[wright1978]

Yes, while it'd be impossible to consider every potential candidate, I really didn't like the fact that there wasn't even a single one from outside the Inquisition. Surely there are some with enough ambition, support and/or political savviness to try and fill the void left by the Conclave, like that Grand Cleric whom Natalie works for. Maybe they didn't want to give us an "antagonist" in this issue? But seeing as how they're willing to utterly blindside players via Vivienne, having an outsider "steal" the position if we don't play our cards right would not be so different.

 

I can understand why they wouldn't want to introduce some nobody from completely left field with no context as to who they are or what they stand for.

Equally i can see why they didn't want to cause themselves problems by having an utter failure candidate appointment(from existing clerics) based on low inquisition power, as that would give them lots of problems referencing it going forward.

 

Regarding men in priesthood, My vast preference is for hardened Leliana and i definitely see it as likely that it would end up being part of her radical agenda.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Does Divine Leliana allow for male priests...the epilogue slide states she opens the chantry to all races but doesn't mention whether or not men can take senior positions in the church

It wouldn't be a far-fetched assumption to say that she does, all things considered.

[Korva]

I can understand why they wouldn't want to introduce some nobody from completely left field with no context as to who they are or what they stand for.

 

Sure, but as I said, that is a problem with the ridiculously short and shallow plot, which picks up various issues only to dump them like a hot potato five minutes later with little or no follow-up. I'd have loved to have some focus stay on the Chantry throughout the game, because ignoring it and the potential problems as well as benefits that are sure to come from that direction makes little political sense ... especially if the Inquisitor is devout and/or political-minded.

 

At any rate, to get a little more on-topic again: what do people think is Leliana's relationship like with the other people among the Inquisition leaders? Josephine is obvious and has been discussed recently, but what about Cullen and Cassandra (whom I still count as part of the leadership even if the game ignores her part once we get to Skyhold)?

[AWTEW]

At any rate, to get a little more on-topic again: what do people think is Leliana's relationship like with the other people among the Inquisition leaders? Josephine is obvious and has been discussed recently, but what about Cullen and Cassandra (whom I still count as part of the leadership even if the game ignores her part once we get to Skyhold)?

 

I wonder this as well. I'm not even sure what her relationship with cassandra is? Are they friends or just work colleagues  who get along. They are just so contrasting. 

[Wulfram]

If Dorian isn't recruited, Leliana is the one playing chess with Cullen. And considering how rarely she relaxes in this game, I'd have to say that suggests they get on pretty well.

[Korva]

That is interesting, and indeed a very good sign. I also recall how enthusiastic she is about him declaring that Lake Calenhad looks like a bunny. That implies a pretty good rapport, since I don't think he'd blurt that out at random to just anyone (especially using a "cute" word like bunny instead of rabbit). I suppose for the most part, the advisors grow into a very solid team after some initial stress.

 

Cassandra and Leliana are definitely rather different personalities, but I think they'd at least have a mutually respectful working relationship after their years of service to Justinia. They're both devout and dedicated to their tasks, and seem to mesh pretty well, even when they disagree. I'd have trouble picturing them as true friends, but if Leliana ever gets wind of Cassandra's secret romantic streak ... oh boy. The poor Seeker wouldn't hear the end of it, especially if Leliana is also "softened" and allows herself to relax more instead of going all "murderpope".

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

I think Cullen and Leliana, while not best buddies by any means, certainly seem to have a healthy amount of respect for each other. They do have some common ground, both are pretty...grizzled, have been through some pretty awful sh*t, have seen the worst people have to offer...I can see why they seem to look out for each other, like the various war table banters where they seem concerned for each other's well-being. While Josephine and Leliana are obviously the closest of the advisers, I imagine there are things Leliana could discuss with Cullen that would be lost on Josie. Though they do seem to bicker the most of the advisers. Understandable, Leliana's always for the covert sneakiness while Cullen is all for crushing flies with sledgehammers. They're the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. :S

tbh, because of the banter bug, I thought the advisers had a better dynamic than most of the companions.

I also realize now Leliana is probably the oldest of the three. Team Big Sister all the way.

[Basement Cat]

Leliana does sounds a bit motherly even when she tells Cullen to 'just look pretty'. 

[N7_Heartfire]

It seems Leliana has a soft spot for shy, awkward, ex templar guys. *coughalistaircough* But I think Leliana connects with Cullen more, considering the awful things they've both been through. I'd say if she knew Cullen the same time she met Josie, they would've been the best of friends. :-)

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

It's kinda trippy playing Broken Circle in DAO and realizing you have 2/3 of the future Inquisition war council in the same room 10-11 years before tho

[Basement Cat]

It's kinda trippy playing Broken Circle in DAO and realizing you have 2/3 of the future Inquisition war council in the same room 10-11 years before tho

It's even trippier if Leliana becomes the Divine in Inquisition. Why? Because the circle is saved by Divine intervention! *runs away*

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

It's even trippier if Leliana becomes the Divine in Inquisition. Why? Because the circle is saved by Divine intervention! *runs away*

All the corny puns that could be made are about the only reason I would consider making her Divine, tbh.

"May I say you look divine today..."
"The right hand of the divine..."
"The Warden is...Victoria's secret?"
"Time for...daily worship?"

[Wulfram]

How did Sister Nightingale know so much?
Divination

Though I always thought it was Alistair's socks which would be the Most Holey

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

No one said but she was treated as one because she didn't ask warden for opinion or decided to become divine.

 

It is funny how you expect someone literally to say that leliana is their property and that i replied to person that claimed such thing.

What either means you comically missed simple point or it was another your failed attempt to go after me. 

 

What on earth are you talking about?

 

I don't expect anyone to say anything. What "attempt to go after you?" 

[GenericEnemy]

So reading the last couple of pages about how different Wardens might react differently to the potential Divine Victoria thing made me curious: how did all you with non-Andrastian Wardens see their relationship with Leliana? Brosca/Aeducan/Mahariel/etc x Leliana has always been interesting to me because it probably needs a bit more thinking on with the obvious hurdles there. My Surana was a bit of an Andrastian, but not especailly devout by any definition of the term.