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Sister Nightingale: Leliana in DA:I Appreciation&Discussion (Nope, still not romanceable)


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#12026
ThePhoenixKing

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God, so many posts! I can't catch up! AHHHHHH! :)

 

Personally, I can't really get enthused about the whole Winter Palace decision; much like the Mage vs. Templar conflict, the drama is kinda sapped when you realize all of the participants are assholes. Admittedly, my ideal outcome to that quest would feature a legion of battle-hardened Blight-veteran warriors of Ferelden going all Vlka Fenryka on them, but maybe that's just me.

 

As for why Leliana suggesting they let Celene die, here's a thought. During Leliana's Song, didn't one of the characters mention how Marjorline intended on selling Leliana to Celene as a captured "spymaster"? I'd have to double-check that to be sure, but if I'm remembering it correctly, Leliana would certainly have that reason to rid herself of the Empress once and for all.



#12027
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Seem to recall reading somewhere that it actually resets at some point as opposed to going forever, though it does go for such a substantial amount of time that it might as well be forever.

 

Yeah, my longest playthrough ended in about 4E 204, which is something like three and a half in-game years after it started. I imagine it goes on for a while. 

 

I love Elder Scrolls games but in those games I don't care much about the pass of time. In Bioware games time matters for me. We know it's been 10 years since the end of the Fifth Blight... I don't know how much time it was from the start of Inquisition to the end of the game. If we could wait for years in DA:I, what would that mean for the lore? If the orlesian civil war lasts for years in some playthroughs and for months in others, what does it mean? It doesn't matter for the plot in any Elder Scroll game if child number 5 you see running through a street in a town in Tamriel is becoming a teenager. It could be replaced with another one. But if I know it has passed six years in game and I find Kieran it would be quite strange for me if he looked like a child and not like a teenager. I think it's intentional they didn't make clear the pass of weeks and months in DAI.

 

Yeah, TES is much more sandbox-ey so giving the player free reign to time passing doesn't really matter so much. I have mods that make the passage of time a bit more pronounced, can make seasons distinct from each other with winter freezing the whole place and so on, can age my character a bit with it...but it doesn't really matter, it's just a cool little flair. I imagine it's much trickier to think about in something more narrative-driven. Sometimes I feel like, say, Game of Thrones doesn't take the size of Westeros into account much, either. They would have had to change some plotlines drastically if they took it into account that you started the Sacred Ashes plotline and then traveled back and forth across Ferelden a dozen times, which would probably take half a year or something. Eamon probably would have died. :S

 

As for why Leliana suggesting they let Celene die, here's a thought. During Leliana's Song, didn't one of the characters mention how Marjorline intended on selling Leliana to Celene as a captured "spymaster"? I'd have to double-check that to be sure, but if I'm remembering it correctly, Leliana would certainly have that reason to rid herself of the Empress once and for all.

 

Well, that's assuming Leliana's Song is the truthful version. I've always figured it was the version with liberties taken. She was telling someone a story in the DLC, the version of the tale she told the Warden while pouring her heart out always hit me as the more accurate version. 

 

Which makes me wonder if she needed to get pardoned in Orlais at some point, if they were the ones who captured her. 


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#12028
ThePhoenixKing

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Well, that's assuming Leliana's Song is the truthful version. I've always figured it was the version with liberties taken. She was telling someone a story in the DLC, the version of the tale she told the Warden while pouring her heart out always hit me as the more accurate version. 

 

Which makes me wonder if she needed to get pardoned in Orlais at some point, if they were the ones who captured her. 

 

I doubt she'd even need to get pardoned at this point. In the rare event she couldn't use her intelligence network to blackmail anyone who could condemn her, she could always invoke trial by combat and have the Warden fight as her champion. I know mine would be willing to tilt the proverbal lance for her at a moment's notice.


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#12029
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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In the rare event she couldn't use her intelligence network to blackmail anyone who could condemn her, she could always invoke trial by combat and have the Warden fight as her champion. I know mine would be willing to tilt the proverbal lance for her at a moment's notice.

 

Do countries in Thedas actually do trials by combat? Is the Maker the kind of god that apparently decides innocence by who hires the better champion? Because I like this idea. Warden and Leliana go back to Orlais at some point before she becomes Left Hand, gets into a kerfuffle with old enemies and the law. Ends up all: 

 

Spoiler

 

"Leliana, in the name of Empress Celene, first of her name, you are hereby sentenced to FREEEEEDDDOOOOOOOOOMMMM." 


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#12030
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Do countries in Thedas actually do trials by combat? Is the Maker the kind of god that apparently decides innocence by who hires the better champion? Because I like this idea. Warden and Leliana go back to Orlais at some point before she becomes Left Hand, gets into a kerfuffle with old enemies and the law. Ends up all: 

 

 

Didn't you get that memo from Andraste?

 

The Maker doesn't care. 



#12031
ThePhoenixKing

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Do countries in Thedas actually do trials by combat? Is the Maker the kind of god that apparently decides innocence by who hires the better champion? Because I like this idea. Warden and Leliana go back to Orlais at some point before she becomes Left Hand, gets into a kerfuffle with old enemies and the law. Ends up all: 

 

Spoiler

 

"Leliana, you are hereby sentenced to FREEEEEDDDOOOOOOOOOMMMM." 

 

Well, there is the duel at the end of the Landsmeet in Origins, and I suppose one could make a theological rationalization that would permit it to exist outside of Ferelden. Cite the right verse of the Chant of Light, and you could probably get away with it.

 

Didn't you get that memo from Andraste?

 

The Maker doesn't care. 

 

Okay then, well, even if trial by combat isn't legally permitted, there's still a monster-killing, god-slaying legendary badass with an unstoppable sense of determination, immense force of personality, and an elite brotherhood of devoted heroes at his back standing between Leliana and anyone who'd dare harm/arrest her. There isn't a guardsman in the world who'd dare enforce a warrant against her with such odds stacked against them.


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#12032
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Well, there is the duel at the end of the Landsmeet in Origins, and I suppose one could make a theological rationalization that would permit it to exist outside of Ferelden. Cite the right verse of the Chant of Light, and you could probably get away with it.

 

"The Maker has plans for all of us! If you were guilty, his plan would not have let you win!" 

 

Probably happens somewhere. I imagine my Warden would roll her eyes, kill the sorry bastard who she needs to kill, and be done with it. Odds would not be stacked in the poor bloke on the other side's favour. :S


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#12033
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'Best' is a highly subjective term. There are many people who prefer Gaspard, with or without Briala.

 

It's possible Leliana doesn't mind Celene dying because Celene knows about Dorothea's less than saintly past (implied in TME). Even though she's dead, it could still be used to cause trouble.

 

Yeah, I know it's subjective. But sometimes I just dun wanna make an essay out of everything.

 

Have you seen the Divine Leliana thread...?  :wacko:  :wacko:

 

I reconciled them too, after reading TME. Their relationship is complex, probably even a bit screwed up. Still, I did want a romantic ending.  :D

 

Am I the only one who thought Leliana's willingness to kill Celene slightly OOC? I know she can be ruthless and pragmatic, but even so... I wanted Celene to rule, even on her own. That said, I didn't actually want Gaspard executed either. Le sigh. 

 

I always lean towards softening Leliana in Inquisition. I know people say it's a bit too "rainbows & unicorns", but I actually think her "I'm more than the Spymaster, Left Hand and Bard" lines is very in character, and sort of sets her back on track. Her hardened demeanour is frankly terrifying.  :o I think it's a bit too extreme, even if it is a logical progression for her personality to take. The execution of hardening her is even more extreme than Origins. 

 

Plus, both the Warden and Justinia would be very sad to see her take that route. I genuinely believe Justinia loved her and regretted making use of her morally grey abilities, and wanted her to find peace once she was gone. 

 

The thing is, neither route is O.O.C. Both sides of Leleiana will continue to exist, the player really only decides which one will be prominent in the immediate future.

 

What do you guys think Leli would want to study if she were in academia? Some sort of Andrastian religion thing? History? ...stuff? 

 

Politics/ the arts

There is a scene in an episode of Xena Warrior Princess where Xena and her friend (forgot her name) are in the bath, facing each other, and Xena is washing the other's feet. Wanted a scene like that with Leliana and the Warden.  :whistle:

 

That would have been problematic, as washing one anothers feet is a highly symbolic catholic ritual.  I don't like most of xena..



#12034
Basement Cat

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Yeah, I know it's subjective. But sometimes I just dun wanna make an essay out of everything.

 

 

The thing is, neither route is O.O.C. Both sides of Leleiana will continue to exist, the player really only decides which one will be prominent in the immediate future.

 

 

Politics/ the arts

 

That would have been problematic, as washing one anothers feet is a highly symbolic catholic ritual.  I don't like most of xena..

Washing another's feet is not exclusive to catholicism or even religion.


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#12035
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Washing another's feet is not exclusive to catholicism or even religion.

 

Yes, I know, but what I was trying to get at, (and I didn't explain it well) was that it's still  a very touchy issue, because it still has the potential strong religious meaning.  It may not be exclusive to catholics, or always a be a religious thing. but when you're a multinational company,  putting something like that in is hugely problematic for so many reasons, especialy,  reputational . You put something in a game that has strong RL religious symbolism, then you have high probability (if not a guarantee) of causing offense to a lot of people. You offend a  a lot of people, that hurts sales, and if the outcry is loud enough..possible bans from selling the product to a country.

 

But, I really don't want to get into this further.



#12036
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Alternative interpretation: They're feet and they'd be washing each other's because it can feel kinda nice for the recipient, also hygiene.

Whoever would get offended by feet washing probably got offended by something else ridiculously arbitrary long before.

*insert Leliana 'I can't believe I'm having this conversation' gif here*
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#12037
AWTEW

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Alternative interpretation: They're feet and they'd be washing each other's because it can feel kinda nice for the recipient, also hygiene.

Whoever would get offended by feet washing probably got offended by something else ridiculously arbitrary long before.

*insert Leliana 'I can't believe I'm having this conversation' gif here*

 

Yes, thats an alternative interpretation, but not the only one.  Some people are really fanatic about things like symbolism , and there are very high financial risks involved in such a sensitive issue.



#12038
Basement Cat

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I guess no one told pedicurists that washing feet was highly controversial and could lead to great financial loss. Funny that nail salons make almost a third of their income on pedicures... Over 7 billion dollars is nothing to sneeze at.

 

http://files.nailsma...b12-13stats.pdf


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#12039
WildOrchid

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I don't like most of xena..

 

Heresy!


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#12040
CrimsonN7

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That would have been problematic, as washing one anothers feet is a highly symbolic catholic ritual.

 

Yuqi plox you're reaching or drunk. Stop reading tumblr.


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#12041
TheLittleBird

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Yeah, if washing feet would be problematic then you could also make an argument for a ton of other things. 

 

Like how the Inquisitor holding a sword during the whole... ceremony at Skyhold is phallic symbolism and therefore sexist.  <_<


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#12042
Basement Cat

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Yeah, if washing feet would be problematic then you could also make an argument for a ton of other things. 

 

Like how the Inquisitor holding a sword during the whole... ceremony at Skyhold is phallic symbolism and therefore sexist.  <_<

And it's pointing at the big round hole in the sky... So really the Inquisitor is tellingCory ''Up yours!''

 

Anyway. Do you think Leliana is a side sleeper or a back sleeper?


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#12043
TheLittleBird

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And it's pointing at the big round hole in the sky... So really the Inquisitor is tellingCory ''Up yours!''

 

Anyway. Do you think Leliana is a side sleeper or a back sleeper?

 

Bwahahahaha -dead-

 

- - - - - - - - - -

 

Hmm. Side. Imagine it's easier getting up that way (when one has to in a quick motion).

 

Because, you know, bards and stuff  ^_^



#12044
erikdlan

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It could be done in a problematic way, sure. Put Divine Victoria with 12 Revered Mothers doing a feet washing and that would have a clear religious interpretation. But if we have Leli and her lover refreshing themselves in a pond and putting special attention to their feet.

 

The camera approaches a clearing in the woods with a beautiful pond. We don't see the Warden and Leli yet, but we hear Leliana

Leli: Yes, yes, that is delightful. Don't stop. Go on, please.

Then the camera focus on them and we see the Warden rubbing and washing her sore feet.

HoF: It has been a long, long day. That fortress, the fighting, the wild chase on horseback, the trial by combat... and by the Maker (by Mythal if the Warden is Dalish), how that Orlesian douchebag could have an army of ogres?

Leliana splashes some water on the Warden.

Leli: Hey, concentrate!

 

I don't think a scene like that could have any religious interpretation.

 

Now excuse me, I have just imagined Corinne Kempa's voice saying that line and I'm not sure on what we were talking about


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#12045
erikdlan

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And it's pointing at the big round hole in the sky... So really the Inquisitor is tellingCory ''Up yours!''

 

Anyway. Do you think Leliana is a side sleeper or a back sleeper?

Side, looking to her lover's eyelashes...



#12046
WildOrchid

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Like how the Inquisitor holding a sword during the whole... ceremony at Skyhold is phallic symbolism and therefore sexist.  <_<

 

Great. Now i can't unsee.

 

 

 

:P


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#12047
FadelessRipley

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It could be done in a problematic way, sure. Put Divine Victoria with 12 Revered Mothers doing a feet washing and that would have a clear religious interpretation. But if we have Leli and her lover refreshing themselves in a pond and putting special attention to their feet.

 

The camera approaches a clearing in the woods with a beautiful pond. We don't see the Warden and Leli yet, but we hear Leliana

Leli: Yes, yes, that is delightful. Don't stop. Go on, please.

Then the camera focus on them and we see the Warden rubbing and washing her sore feet.

HoF: It has been a long, long day. That fortress, the fighting, the wild chase on horseback, the trial by combat... and by the Maker (by Mythal if the Warden is Dalish), how that Orlesian douchebag could have an army of ogres?

Leliana splashes some water on the Warden.

Leli: Hey, concentrate!

 

I don't think a scene like that could have any religious interpretation.

 

Now excuse me, I have just imagined Corinne Kempa's voice saying that line and I'm not sure on what we were talking about

 

That scene is dreamy. <3 Personally I think she should narrate everything in the entire universe. Claudia Black can take over when she needs a break. :D


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#12048
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andraste_s_grace_by_sabalmirss-d7z6eij.p

 

http://sabalmirss.de...Grace-482348539

 

Also, I HIGHLY recommend checking out this artist's other DA pieces. A+ work.


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#12049
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I guess no one told pedicurists that washing feet was highly controversial and could lead to great financial loss. Funny that nail salons make almost a third of their income on pedicures... Over 7 billion dollars is nothing to sneeze at.

 

http://files.nailsma...b12-13stats.pdf

 

 

 Religion can be considered as catalysts for customer movement from loyalty to boycott. Religion defines and explains the values for life, which in turn are reflected in the values and attitudes of societies and human beings. Such values and attitudes shape form the behavior of institutions and members of cultures ([27] Fam et al. , 2004).

 

Regardless of different degrees of religious commitment; religiosity are linked and correlated to particular consumer lifestyles. Consequently, "religiosity is a viable consumer construct because it is correlated with lifestyle variables such as opinion leadership, risk avoidance, credit purchase and life satisfaction" ([24] Essoo and Dibb, 2004, p. 689). Therefore, it is argued that religiousness or religiosity, is an important value in the individual's cognitive structure, and can influence an individual's behavior toward buying products ([46] Lau, 2010).

The connection and relationship between culture and religion can be shown through self identity and family ([49] Lindridge, 2005). Culture can be identified by three ideational themes: " cognitive - language based, symbolic - objects, and structuralist - organisations, with the latter perhaps being the most relevant issue" ([49] Lindridge, 2005, p. 143). Drawing upon the study of Levi-Strauss, the structuralist approach concentrates on culture noticeable within social organisations and structures and the way in which they are learned and acted upon by the individual ([49] Lindridge, 2005). As [59] Reber (1985) considered that religion perpetuates societal structures, such as religious institutions, [49] Lindridge (2005) therefore concluded that religion can be identified with the structuralist approach to culture. "A set of cultural norms and values, perpetuated through a structuralist cultural system, identifiable with collectivism and individualism can be extracted from a religion" ([49] Lindridge, 2005, p. 143). Collectivism and individualism can be represented by the degree a culture supports, fosters and facilitates an independent and distinctive self over other group members ([14] Brewer and Chen, 2007; [49] Lindridge, 2005).

It is evident that a consumer adopts products, behaviors, and practices in an attempt to satisfy the way others look at them. With the dramatic increase in consumer choice, self identity has become a matter of personal selection of self-image ([33] Hamilton and Hassan, 2010). Therefore, in cultural context and to build self identity of customers, conspicuous consumption may lead to boycott based on customers' religious beliefs.

(Al-Hyari, K., Alnsour, M., Al-Weshah, G. & Haffar, M. 2012, "Religious beliefs and consumer behaviour: from loyalty to boycotts",Journal of Islamic Marketing, vol. 3, no. 2, pp. 155-174.)

Yuqi plox you're reaching or drunk. Stop reading tumblr.

 

 I don't need to read tumblr, this is basic international buissness/marketing 101.

Yeah, if washing feet would be problematic then you could also make an argument for a ton of other things. 

 

Like how the Inquisitor holding a sword during the whole... ceremony at Skyhold is phallic symbolism and therefore sexist.  <_<

 

It is phalic system and sexist lol



#12050
CrimsonN7

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I don't need to read tumblr, this is basic international buissness/marketing 101.

 

 

Lol