15914 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

My CE didn't even loot the ring. She would have sold it either way.

[LadyStoneheart]

Oh that part is painful. You can tell by her voice that she feels betrayed by the Maker (again if the Warden romanced her and did the ultimate sacrifice). She sounds close to tears there. Actually I imagine she is crying. She was audibly crying in Leliana's Song and yet we saw no tears. So the animators just didn't bother.

 

Yeah, I agree. I'd say in both scenes she tries really hard not to cry in front of the Inquisitor. The first time she's already upset by what she read on your report and it's like she's fighting the urge to ask you more about it (notice how she winces when you casually mention the Divine at the beginning of the conversation) only to give in at the last minute and then being like "ok no more of that, back to work" because it's too much. The second time it gets even worse because she has to suddenly stand up and turn her back on the Inquisitor; that's when I imagine she starts crying, especially after her line "Justinia has never failed me. I was her Left Hand, now she's dead. I failed her" that broke my heart in a million pieces 

 

Spoiler

Justiniaaa!!! *shakes fist*  

[Basement Cat]

Yeah, I agree. I'd say in both scenes she tries really hard not to cry in front of the Inquisitor. The first time she's already upset by what she read on your report and it's like she's fighting the urge to ask you more about it (notice how she winces when you casually mention the Divine at the beginning of the conversation) only to give in at the last minute and then being like "ok no more of that, back to work" because it's too much. The second time it gets even worse because she has to suddenly stand up and turn her back on the Inquisitor; that's when I imagine she starts crying, especially after her line "Justinia has never failed me. I was her Left Hand, now she's dead. I failed her" that broke my heart in a million pieces 

 

Spoiler

Justiniaaa!!! *shakes fist*  

This line makes me want to slap both Justinia and Leliana. Poor Leli baby is looking for any reason to explain why Justinia died and since she can't bring herself to think badly of her, she blames herself instead.

 

Leliana: I failed her.

 

 

Heh, from this angle Helen almost looks like Leliana. 

[LadyStoneheart]

This line makes me want to slap both Justinia and Leliana. Poor Leli baby is looking for any reason to explain why Justinia died and since she can't bring herself to think badly of her, she blames herself instead.

This makes me wonder how she'll react when she finds out that Solas is partly responsible for what happened to Justinia... Leli was the one who immediately ruled him out of the suspects right after the Conclave, and then proceeded to welcome him into the Inquisition 

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Hopefully Lels doesn't beat herself up too much about that. No matter how good a spymaster you are, it's hard to beat the trickster god. :S

[Basement Cat]

This makes me wonder how she'll react when she finds out that Solas is partly responsible for what happened to Justinia... Leli was the one who immediately ruled him out of the suspects right after the Conclave, and then proceeded to welcome him into the Inquisition 

She was fooled by Marjolaine, Justinia, Solas, Blackwall, Butler (the traitor agent)....

 

Now before we write off Leliana as incompetent, let's remember the circumstances: she was in a vulnerable state every time. Cecile died, Marjolaine stepped in to take advantage of it. Marjolaine's betrayal. Justinia stepped in to take advantage of it. Justinia's death and the Breach. Solas takes advantage of it so that nobody will question his motives since he is able to help. He is counting on nobody looking a gift horse in the mouth, and he's right.

 

In the case of Justinia's death and the Breach, Leliana is by no means the only one who is devastated by the events, but she is the one hit hardest by them.

 

Blackwall and Butler just got a free ride in the general chaos.

 

Hopefully Lels doesn't beat herself up too much about that. No matter how good a spymaster you are, it's hard to beat the trickster god. :S

Well I hope the Trickster god gets tricked out of his godhood and stops messing things up for everyone. He almost destroyed the world because he's a horrible judge of his own strength and other people's characters. Seriously, who in their right mind would trust Corypheus with anything?

 

So he is not so much a trickster god as a screw up god. If he'd stayed asleep none of the events of DAI would have happened.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Hey, he'd just woken up and hadn't had his morning coffee yet. He makes mistakes before that. I can relate.

[Basement Cat]

Hey, he'd just woken up and hadn't had his morning coffee yet. He makes mistakes before that. I can relate.

No excuses! *frothing rage*

 

Seriously though, all the mages in the group are arrogant and convinced that they know better than everyone else. Actually that's true for all companion mages in the series except Bethany.

 

I guess magic breeds arrogance...

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

No excuses! *frothing rage*
 
Seriously though, all the mages in the group are arrogant and convinced that they know better than everyone else. Actually that's true for all companion mages in the series except Bethany.
 
I guess magic breeds arrogance...

It seems if you're a mage you either have a serious inferiority complex or a serious superiority complex, no exceptions. Dorian actually seems to have both. :S

[Qun00]

Say, when exactly did Leliana start changing from cheerful bard to blood thirsty workaholic?

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Say, when exactly did Leliana start changing from cheerful bard to blood thirsty workaholic?

Sometime after Justinia recruited her as Left Hand and messed her up all over again. Especially bitter if your Warden unhardened her as mine did.

Seems like it was a bit of a slow process though. Josephine reminisces about how she used to be more easy going even when she was Left Hand. I tend to think she started her downward spiral in earnest when the mage/templar war broke out, as she was probably called upon to do a lot of dirty work then...and, that was around when the Warden left on their quest too, so her 'anchor' of sorts was gone for it.

[Basement Cat]

To add to what Snook said: Justinia's death probably broke something in Leliana. She saw Justinia as the holiest of holies and she was killed by the war she was trying to end.

 

'Hard' Leliana sees Justinia's death as a sign that she was too soft and that harsh measures are needed to ensure piece, leading to her unleashing a blood bath if she becomes Divine.

 

'Soft' Leliana learns that Justinia was just a woman and thus could make mistakes that she sought forgiveness for (after her death, but still.). Leliana learns to be forgiving and to keep trying to reach out to the better part of people.

 

Either way, it makes sense that the Inquisitor would have so much sway over her path: they are a divine messenger (literally after the trip to the Fade) and she is desperate for guidance.

 

One thing I wonder is how Leliana reacts if we ask her to spare the traitor in Haven but encourage her to kill Natalie? Does she call us out on this sudden change of method? Mmh...

 

 That's part of the reason I don't like hard Leliana in this game. She never stops idolizing Justinia and keeps seeing her as this paragon of justice and goodness that she really wasn't. She was just a woman with an agenda who used Leliana for her own ends. Like Marjolaine. Those two (Marjolaine and Justinia) really deserved each other.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Yeah, I feel like the hardened path in general gives Justinia too much credit. She's accepting what Justinia made her into as who she is and who she's always been. With the softened path she's more or less leaving her behind and forging her own identity for herself, independent of Justinia's influence. "Before I was spymaster, Left Hand, or a bard." as she puts it.

Undoubtedly a difficult (but admirable) change for her, as when you think about it...her life has been pretty dominated by those three things.

[Serza]

I don't know, is Justinia really without any redeeming qualities?

 

She motivated Leliana to try and escape the dungeon. She also gave her the cell key, as I recall.

Leli would be dead without her. Not before getting raped countless times... which is implied enough as it is.

City Elf's mother, Adaia would never have made it out of that prison to "tell her child about humans like Leliana" without Leli cutting her way through the damn thing.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I don't know, is Justinia really without any redeeming qualities?
 
She motivated Leliana to try and escape the dungeon. She also gave her the cell key, as I recall.
Leli would be dead without her. Not before getting raped countless times... which is implied enough as it is.
City Elf's mother, Adaia would never have made it out of that prison to "tell her child about humans like Leliana" without Leli cutting her way through the damn thing.

I don't think she's without redeeming qualities. I think Dorothea was clearly a good woman, one who Leliana could definitely relate to. Justinia...Justinia is a mixed bag.

I wouldn't say her and Marjolaine are the same, but I would say Justinia and Marjolaine are two sides to the same coin.

[Basement Cat]

I don't know, is Justinia really without any redeeming qualities?

 

She motivated Leliana to try and escape the dungeon. She also gave her the cell key, as I recall.

Leli would be dead without her. Not before getting raped countless times... which is implied enough as it is.

City Elf's mother, Adaia would never have made it out of that prison to "tell her child about humans like Leliana" without Leli cutting her way through the damn thing.

Who said she was without redeeming qualities? But the fact is the road to hell is paved with good intentions and even if she wanted what was best (which she did) and she truly cared for Leliana (which she did), she still caused a lot of harm and the main point of contention here is that she never owned up to it.

 

Sure, her remorse tormented her to the point that a spirit took her form in order to pass on her apology, but it was still a pretty indirect route.

 

We are not judging Justinia on an impartial basis here: we are doing it through the lens of someone who cares about Leliana and see that Justinia did her more harm than good.

 

Dorothea's rescue of Leliana is underhanded too. She just happened to rescue a victim of someone who betrayed her too, someone who just happened to have something (the secret documents) that could lead to a lot of trouble for everyone. So yes she did a good deed by 'saving' Leliana, but there was self-interest there too and she realized quickly that she could use Leliana to further her own agenda.

 

Now, if we were being impartial, yes there is a lot of good in Justinia (she wants to reform the Chantry) just like there is a lot of bad in Leliana (lack of empathy mostly). But screw that! This is the Leliana thread and we're going to fuss over our baby!

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

It's really easy to dislike Justinia if you look at it from the Warden's POV. :S

Stole their love away from them for long periods, broke her, manipulated her, undid any good they set in her themselves, caused them to be separated for years now when the Warden left for their quest... *grumbles*

[Serza]

I... find myself approving of your stances.

 

I'm also glad we find a common opinion in the fact Justinia did a lot of grey - perhaps dark grey, but not black.

 

As much as it'd be underhanded, she may have considered Leliana the "necessary casualty" of improving the Chantry and southern Thedas in general? Shoot. That's me, thinking everyone wants to screw over everyone... Naw, that surely can't be it.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Meanwhile my Warden would probably punch the old crone across the jaw if she ever called Leliana a 'necessary casualty' around her. :S

I do wonder if there was ever a heated argument like that between the two major figures in Leliana's life.

[Serza]

Meanwhile my Warden would probably punch the old crone across the jaw if she ever called Leliana a 'necessary casualty' around her. :S

I do wonder if there was ever a heated argument like that between the two major figures in Leliana's life.

 

The term "necessary casualty" in and of itself smells SO FISHY that whenever someone says it, you should just relieve them of command.

With excessive use of force, if required. There is no such thing. Casualties will happen in those cases, but there never is one "necessary" casualty. Not even once.

[Basement Cat]

Meanwhile my Warden would probably punch the old crone across the jaw if she ever called Leliana a 'necessary casualty' around her. :S

I do wonder if there was ever a heated argument like that between the two major figures in Leliana's life.

I know my Tabris would argue with her and punch her for hurting her beloved. And that letter to the Inquisitor asking them to prevent Leliana from losing her Faith... They knew something was afoot.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I think my Warden is the kind of person who hates terms like 'greater good' or 'necessary casualty' because she'd think calling anything like this good or necessary is downright insulting. She burned a city to the ground to stop the taint from spreading. She would never once dress up the people she's hurt with pretty words to make herself feel better.

She probably just drowned in alcohol every now and then.

I know my Tabris would argue with her and punch her for hurting her beloved. And that letter to the Inquisitor asking them to prevent Leliana from losing her Faith... They knew something was afoot.

Same. I think leaving for the Calling cure was probably a very hard thing for my Warden to do, because she had her suspicions about Justinia's manipulation beforehand, and out there, far to the west, she'd be unable to help her.

Her begging the Inquisitor to help her was so in-character for me. She was lucky my Lavellan is a Mahariel fangirl and was more than happy to help. :S

[FiveThreeTen]

Mmh I don't hate Justinia :/

I mean, I get why people draws parallels with Marjolaine for her actions towards Leliana but I just can't endorse the opinion that it was the same thing.

 

And while Leliana has her own issues, I don't see her as a delicate flower that need protection from my Warden (maybe comfort).

I like to think that she also served Justinia because it was important to her as an "unconventional" Andrastian (even if her devotion to Justinia obvioulsy played a huge part).

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

And while Leliana has her own issues, I don't see her as a delicate flower that need protection from my Warden (maybe comfort).

I'm probably making it sound that way, aren't I? :S

I think my Warden more just recognises she's still in a fragile state of mind, and sees Justinia as someone who's going to break it. Not so much protection because she thinks Leliana can't handle herself, more just concern for her wellbeing because she knows Leliana probably doesn't recognize being used when she is. And she'd be right about that.

[FiveThreeTen]

I'm probably making it sound that way, aren't I? :S

I think my Warden more just recognises she's still in a fragile state of mind, and sees Justinia as someone who's going to break it. Not so much protection because she thinks Leliana can't handle herself, more just concern for her wellbeing because she knows Leliana probably doesn't recognize being used when she is. And she'd be right about that.

Well it's not bad or wrong per see, just a different perspective. Afraid of loosing her and all that jazz

 

Doesn't recognize being used? Maybe but again, it assumes that she had zero want/agency in following Justinia when she became Divine besides her devotion to her.

I have difficulty imagining Leliana being totally blind or whitout goals and aspirations of her own when she decided to be her Left Hand. I'm not trying to downplay Leliana emotional "hang-ups" but she had an interest in what Justinia was trying to achieve.