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Sister Nightingale: Leliana in DA:I Appreciation&Discussion (Nope, still not romanceable)


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#13251
Xilizhra

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No excuses! *frothing rage*

 

Seriously though, all the mages in the group are arrogant and convinced that they know better than everyone else. Actually that's true for all companion mages in the series except Bethany.

 

I guess magic breeds arrogance...

Merrill is pure. Everything that went wrong in her questing was Marethari's fault.

 

 

Same. I think leaving for the Calling cure was probably a very hard thing for my Warden to do, because she had her suspicions about Justinia's manipulation beforehand, and out there, far to the west, she'd be unable to help her.

Her begging the Inquisitor to help her was so in-character for me. She was lucky my Lavellan is a Mahariel fangirl and was more than happy to help. :S

I frankly feel railroaded with that, given that my own Warden is a blood mage and could use Avernus' tricks.


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#13252
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Doesn't recognize being used? Maybe but again, it assumes that she had zero want/agency in following Justinia when she became Divine besides her devotion to her.
I have difficulty imagining Leliana being totally blind or whitout goals and aspirations of her own when she decided to be her Left Hand. I'm not trying to downplay Leliana emotional "hang-ups" but she had an interest in what Justinia was trying to achieve.


She no doubt did have her own goals and aspirations there, but that wouldn't really change anything; she still didn't recognize the less-than-noble way Justinia was using her for said devotion and aspirations. Much like her love and devotion to Marjolaine blinded her to her less than noble attributes.

#13253
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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I frankly feel railroaded with that, given that my own Warden is a blood mage and could use Avernus' tricks.


Well firstly, I doubt Leliana would approve of that given her reaction to Avernus himself...and secondly, his blood magic neigh-immortality trick kinda flips the problem over; now Leliana will just die long before your Warden does.

Frankly I'd rather just cure it and live normally.

#13254
Xilizhra

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Well firstly, I doubt Leliana would approve of that given her reaction to Avernus himself...and secondly, his blood magic neigh-immortality trick kinda flips the problem over; now Leliana will just die before your Warden does.

Frankly I'd rather just cure it and live normally.

Yes, but if the problem is flipped around, it's no longer Leliana's problem, and Lilith can frankly think of many worse things than living too long. Hell, it might not be impossible to impart said longevity onto Leliana.



#13255
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Yeah something tells me she wouldn't agree to that.
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#13256
Serza

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Yeah something tells me she wouldn't agree to that.

 

Where do I sign this?



#13257
Xilizhra

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Yeah something tells me she wouldn't agree to that.

Well, she doesn't have to if she doesn't want to. But would Leliana really say that it's better to go off alone on some damn quest somewhere without her for years just to avoid blood magic?


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#13258
FiveThreeTen

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She no doubt did have her own goals and aspirations there, but that wouldn't really change anything; she still didn't recognize the less-than-noble way Justinia was using her for said devotion and aspirations. Much like her love and devotion to Marjolaine blinded her to her less than noble attributes.

Fair point but I still think "used" is a strong word regarding Justinia even if in the end she herself was aware that she had failed Leliana by letting her slip into that Nightingale role. But would Leliana have left her position had she not been *blinded*? Somehow I doubt that.



#13259
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Well, she doesn't have to if she doesn't want to. But would Leliana really say that it's better to go off alone on some damn quest somewhere without her for years just to avoid blood magic?


Well, apparently so. I think Leliana would much rather the Warden be cured than be a walking dead woman held together by blood magic.

And they're not necessarily alone, I like to think Nathaniel, Oghren, Sigrun and co. are there. And the dog of course.

Where do I sign this?


Sign here, here, and here. Any damage done by creepy blood rituals is now no longer our responsibility.

#13260
Xilizhra

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Well, apparently so. I think Leliana would much rather the Warden be cured than be a walking dead woman held together by blood magic.

And they're not necessarily alone, I like to think Nathaniel, Oghren, Sigrun and co. are there. And the dog of course.

She'd still be perfectly alive, just with the Calling slowed down. If Leliana's so concerned about it, she and Lilith can hunt for it together at some point in the future.



#13261
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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...did you see Avernus? Dude didn't just look old, dude looked like a downright blighted husk. I wouldn't be surprised if he withered and died if I poked him too hard.

Leliana doesn't like blood magic. She was repulsed by Avernus' use of it. So yes, I don't think she'd ever condone the Warden flat out doing the same thing he did to sustain themselves.

#13262
thats1evildude

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The only longevity I've seen blood magic impart involves stealing the lives of others. Leliana would probably not favour that.



#13263
Xilizhra

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...did you see Avernus? Dude didn't just look old, dude looked like a downright blighted husk. I wouldn't be surprised if he withered and died if I poked him too hard.

Leliana doesn't like blood magic. She was repulsed by Avernus' use of it. So yes, I don't think she'd ever condone the Warden flat out doing the same thing he did to sustain themselves.

The man is also centuries old. Leliana would almost certainly be dead by the time that Lilith reached that state. Also, you have to poke him many, many times to kill him if you get into a fight with him. He's tougher than he looks.

 

As for the blood magic... well, it seems to me like it'd be Hawke working with Gascard to find Leandra; exceptions can be made if someone's life is on the line (not that she minded Lilith ever using it anyway).

 

 

The only longevity I've seen blood magic impart involves stealing the lives of others. Leliana would probably not favour that.

All of Avernus' test subjects died long before the PC gets to Soldier's Peak. Avernus must have been sustaining himself alone for many years.



#13264
Han Shot First

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Merrill is pure. Everything that went wrong in her questing was Marethari's fault.

 

 

Merrill commits the 'sin' of pride. 



#13265
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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She never seemed to mind because specialisations had next to no recognition from anyone in DAO. If they did, I'm willing to bet she'd be wary. She's an Andrastian.

Hell, after Hawke in DAI, I'm not entirely sure how canon the PC's potential use of blood magic is anymore.

#13266
Xilizhra

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Merrill commits the 'sin' of pride. 

Marethari does it first and worse.

 

 

She never seemed to mind because specialisations had next to no recognition from anyone in DAO. If they did, I'm willing to bet she'd be wary. She's an Andrastian.

Hell, after Hawke in DAI, I'm not entirely sure how canon the PC's potential use of blood magic is anymore.

Well, that was complete ****** bullshit, but thankfully, it doesn't apply to the Hero of Ferelden. And she might be wary, but I'm certain she'd be able to overlook it. She is, after all, good at that when it comes to loved ones.


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#13267
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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 And she might be wary, but I'm certain she'd be able to overlook it. She is, after all, good at that when it comes to loved ones.


Not really the same idea, Marjolaine and Justinia weren't implicitly slitting their wrists, summoning demons and making blood sacrifices in front of her...a devout Andrastian...

#13268
Xilizhra

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Not really the same idea, Marjolaine and Justinia weren't implicitly slitting their wrists, summoning demons and making blood sacrifices in front of her...a devout Andrastian...

Lilith doesn't summon demons. And also doesn't abuse Leliana at all, so I think that magical practices that have nothing to do with Leliana aren't too big of a barrier.



#13269
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Well, I think it is when it's something she's implicitly expressed disapproval of and is entirely against what she believes in.

It isn't as bad as FenrisxBlood mage at least.

#13270
Xilizhra

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Well, I think it is when it's something she's implicitly expressed disapproval of and is entirely against what she believes in.

I'm not hurting anyone who isn't trying to kill us. That doesn't go against the Chant of Light.



#13271
LadyStoneheart

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She was fooled by Marjolaine, Justinia, Solas, Blackwall, Butler (the traitor agent)....

 

Now before we write off Leliana as incompetent, let's remember the circumstances: she was in a vulnerable state every time. Cecile died, Marjolaine stepped in to take advantage of it. Marjolaine's betrayal. Justinia stepped in to take advantage of it. Justinia's death and the Breach. Solas takes advantage of it so that nobody will question his motives since he is able to help. He is counting on nobody looking a gift horse in the mouth, and he's right.

 

In the case of Justinia's death and the Breach, Leliana is by no means the only one who is devastated by the events, but she is the one hit hardest by them.

 

Blackwall and Butler just got a free ride in the general chaos.

 

I think you're right, I wasn't trying to wite her off as incompetent because I don't think she is. I just hope she won't blame herself again when she finds out the truth about Solas (who, by the way, seems to be headed far to the west... as well as a certain Warden  :ph34r: ).

 

Anyway I wonder if Leliana's final realization about Justinia affects her later decision to not have Cassandra as her Right Hand if she becomes Divine.



#13272
AresKeith

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Well, I think it is when it's something she's implicitly expressed disapproval of and is entirely against what she believes in.

It isn't as bad as FenrisxBlood mage at least.

 

Nothing will be as bad as that or LelianaxDefiledAshes 



#13273
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Nothing will be as bad as that or LelianaxDefiledAshes


Bleh best not to even mention that. >.>

#13274
FiveThreeTen

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Defiling the Urn = Raining on Leliana spiritual parade regardless of how you justify it

 

Reaver spec is no excuse either, you can read a book or unlock it from another playthrough :P


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#13275
Basement Cat

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Fair point but I still think "used" is a strong word regarding Justinia even if in the end she herself was aware that she had failed Leliana by letting her slip into that Nightingale role. But would Leliana have left her position had she not been *blinded*? Somehow I doubt that.

If you want to get technical about it, everybody is 'using' others to get something, or in other words there is an exchange of something. We like some people more than others because they make us feel good, help us when we need it, etc. and we do the same in return. That's an even exchange, so it's good.

 

There are several problems with the relationship between Justinia and Leliana. For one, what Justinia asks Leliana to do hurts Leliana's psyche. Justinia is aware of it and regrets it, so she's not a monster. Problem number two: Justinia knows Leliana is suffering, but she does not do anything about it. Not while she's alive because she still needs someone to do her dirty work and Leliana happens to be competent and devoted to her. So there's that lack of courage that was pointed out before.

 

Third problem: Leliana is aware of what causes her suffering: her work. She is not 'blinded' per say, so why does she keep doing it? She feels she owes it to Justinia. Her devotion is not to the cause, it's to the leader of that cause and therein lies the main problem: Leliana doesn't have the courage to stand up to Justinia and refuse to do that work because of a sense of obligation. Justinia doesn't have the courage to let Leliana go.

 

So in a way, Leliana is being sacrificed for the greater good, but not really by her own choice. She's saying ''I will do this'' not because she herself believes it has to be done, but because Justinia tells her it has to be done.

 

What we have here is not an abusive relationship. It's an unhealthy relationship. They both know it, but they are trapped in it by the things they want: Justinia wants to change the world, and for that she needs people she can trust to act while she is the figurehead. Leliana wants to have a purpose and to be needed, and Justinia fulfills that role. So what we have here is a vicious circle of codependency: Justinia is afraid of being betrayed (as she was by Marjolaine), so she clings to the person she trusts the most, Leliana, to act on her behalf. Leliana is afraid of being abandoned, so she clings to the person who gives her purpose.

 

They are both hurting each other through this, and they know it, but neither has the courage to put a stop to it. At first Leliana refuses to acknowledge that Justinia could have failed her. She wants to take all the blame so that she can interpret Justinia's death as her own punishment. Why? Because if she is being punished, it means the Maker is still there. It means she is not completely abandoned. There is still someone looking at her, even in anger. That's why she put up with as much sh*t as she has over her life. She has a pathological need to be needed.

 

For Justinia the quandary was choosing between her goals and someone she cared about. She chose her goals, but what she was doing to Leliana still tormented her. That's why she had that post mortem message arranged for Leliana. It was her way to soothe her conscience over what she was doing.

 

TL;DR: Relationships are complicated and the greater good is a b*tch.


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