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Sister Nightingale: Leliana in DA:I Appreciation&Discussion (Nope, still not romanceable)


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#13276
FiveThreeTen

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If you want to get technical about it, everybody is 'using' others to get something, or in other words there is an exchange of something. We like some people more than others because they make us feel good, help us when we need it, etc. and we do the same in return. That's an even exchange, so it's good.

 

There are several problems with the relationship between Justinia and Leliana. For one, what Justinia asks Leliana to do hurts Leliana's psyche. Justinia is aware of it and regrets it, so she's not a monster. Problem number two: Justinia knows Leliana is suffering, but she does not do anything about it. Not while she's alive because she still needs someone to do her dirty work and Leliana happens to be competent and devoted to her. So there's that lack of courage that was pointed out before.

 

Third problem: Leliana is aware of what causes her suffering: her work. She is not 'blinded' per say, so why does she keep doing it? She feels she owes it to Justinia. Her devotion is not to the cause, it's to the leader of that cause and therein lies the main problem: Leliana doesn't have the courage to stand up to Justinia and refuse to do that work because of a sense of obligation. Justinia doesn't have the courage to let Leliana go.

 

So in a way, Leliana is being sacrificed for the greater good, but not really by her own choice. She's saying ''I will do this'' not because she herself believes it has to be done, but because Justinia tells her it has to be done.

 

What we have here is not an abusive relationship. It's an unhealthy relationship. They both know it, but they are trapped in it by the things they want: Justinia wants to change the world, and for that she needs people she can trust to act while she is the figurehead. Leliana wants to have a purpose and to be needed, and Justinia fulfills that role. So what we have here is a vicious circle of codependency: Justinia is afraid of being betrayed (as she was by Marjolaine), so she clings to the person she trusts the most, Leliana, to act on her behalf. Leliana is afraid of being abandoned, so she clings to the person who gives her purpose.

 

They are both hurting each other through this, and they know it, but neither has the courage to put a stop to it. At first Leliana refuses to acknowledge that Justinia could have failed her. She wants to take all the blame so that she can interpret Justinia's death as her own punishment. Why? Because if she is being punished, it means the Maker is still there. It means she is not completely abandoned. There is still someone looking at her, even in anger. That's why she put up with as much sh*t as she has over her life. She has a pathological need to be needed.

 

For Justinia the quandary was choosing between her goals and someone she cared about. She chose her goals, but what she was doing to Leliana still tormented her. That's why she had that post mortem message arranged for Leliana. It was her way to soothe her conscience over what she was doing.

 

TL;DR: Relationships are complicated and the greater good is a b*tch.

I get your point but one thing I can't agree with is pathologizing Leliana's emotions and her relationship with Justinia.  (Justinia "hurting Leliana psyche", "Leliana having a pathological need to be needed").

I get that she had a trauma and feels the need to be aknowledged and craves affection but it makes it sound like she has no agency and that she is just a victim. And that's not how I view Leliana's character and can't reduce her to that.



#13277
N7_Heartfire

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bxtDBqi.jpg

http://shepofships.t...st/115800339586

 

*heavy breathing*

 

I don't know about you guys, but as far as my world state goes, where my Mahariel romanced Leliana but did the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, I can imagine how awkward it would be between the two of them if they started talking about the Warden.

 

We know Lels is grateful to Morrigan for saving her love's life, seems to have a soft spot for Kieran, and neither of them hate each other by DAI (hell, I think Morrigan is impressed/respects Leliana for what she's accomplished and Lels sure is concerned for Morri if she drank from the Well), but, still awkward...and I love it!  :P


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#13278
Basement Cat

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I get your point but one thing I can't agree with is pathologizing Leliana's emotions and her relationship with Justinia.  (Justinia "hurting Leliana psyche", "Leliana having a pathological need to be needed").

I get that she had a trauma and feels the need to be aknowledged and craves affection but it makes it sound like she has no agency and that she is just a victim. And that's not how I view Leliana character.
 

I wouldn't say that she has no agency. Just that her perspective is skewed. There is a difference between being helpless and needing help. Take for example someone with say, a broken ankle. They will compensate for it by using a crutch or leaning against a wall while  keeping their foot off the ground. Are they helpless? No. They are dealing with their problem the best way they know. Over time it heals, but it might not heal properly if it's not treated right and so they still limp once it's dealt with.

 

Do they lack agency if somebody else suggests getting a doctor to set the bone straight and put a cast to make sure it stays straight? Of course not. Psychological issues are similar: some people have inborn conditions that need special tools to deal with them, others get injured and remain scarred or even crippled from improper care. Leliana has agency, I just think she lacks the perspective and tools to deal with the damage properly.

 

Leliana's main issue that she clings to a single person and she tends to pick people with similar traits, so the pattern is repeated. Again, it's not a lack of agency, it's faulty perspective.

 

Edit: This conversation is tremendous fun and I hope you are not put off by my rambling. :)


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#13279
Han Shot First

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http://shepofships.t...st/115800339586

 

*heavy breathing*

 

I don't know about you guys, but as far as my world state goes, where my Mahariel romanced Leliana but did the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, I can imagine how awkward it would be between the two of them if they started talking about the Warden.

 

We know Lels is grateful to Morrigan for saving her love's life, seems to have a soft spot for Kieran, and neither of them hate each other by DAI (hell, I think Morrigan is impressed/respects Leliana for what she's accomplished and Lels sure is concerned for Morri if she drank from the Well), but, still awkward...and I love it!  :P

 

My Warden was involved with both of them, and not just because of the Dark Ritual. There quite a bit of snark between them in DA:O because of that, so you would think that a reunion would be awkward. On the other hand it has been ten years, so maybe it is all water under the bridge.


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#13280
Qun00

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If you want to get technical about it, everybody is 'using' others to get something, or in other words there is an exchange of something. We like some people more than others because they make us feel good, help us when we need it, etc. and we do the same in return. That's an even exchange, so it's good.
 
There are several problems with the relationship between Justinia and Leliana. For one, what Justinia asks Leliana to do hurts Leliana's psyche. Justinia is aware of it and regrets it, so she's not a monster. Problem number two: Justinia knows Leliana is suffering, but she does not do anything about it. Not while she's alive because she still needs someone to do her dirty work and Leliana happens to be competent and devoted to her. So there's that lack of courage that was pointed out before.
 
Third problem: Leliana is aware of what causes her suffering: her work. She is not 'blinded' per say, so why does she keep doing it? She feels she owes it to Justinia. Her devotion is not to the cause, it's to the leader of that cause and therein lies the main problem: Leliana doesn't have the courage to stand up to Justinia and refuse to do that work because of a sense of obligation. Justinia doesn't have the courage to let Leliana go.
 
So in a way, Leliana is being sacrificed for the greater good, but not really by her own choice. She's saying ''I will do this'' not because she herself believes it has to be done, but because Justinia tells her it has to be done.
 
What we have here is not an abusive relationship. It's an unhealthy relationship. They both know it, but they are trapped in it by the things they want: Justinia wants to change the world, and for that she needs people she can trust to act while she is the figurehead. Leliana wants to have a purpose and to be needed, and Justinia fulfills that role. So what we have here is a vicious circle of codependency: Justinia is afraid of being betrayed (as she was by Marjolaine), so she clings to the person she trusts the most, Leliana, to act on her behalf. Leliana is afraid of being abandoned, so she clings to the person who gives her purpose.
 
They are both hurting each other through this, and they know it, but neither has the courage to put a stop to it. At first Leliana refuses to acknowledge that Justinia could have failed her. She wants to take all the blame so that she can interpret Justinia's death as her own punishment. Why? Because if she is being punished, it means the Maker is still there. It means she is not completely abandoned. There is still someone looking at her, even in anger. That's why she put up with as much sh*t as she has over her life. She has a pathological need to be needed.
 
For Justinia the quandary was choosing between her goals and someone she cared about. She chose her goals, but what she was doing to Leliana still tormented her. That's why she had that post mortem message arranged for Leliana. It was her way to soothe her conscience over what she was doing.
 
TL;DR: Relationships are complicated and the greater good is a b*tch.


I wouldn't pin it all on Justinia.

Leliana certainly believes in her methods.

#13281
Basement Cat

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I wouldn't pin it all on Justinia.

Leliana certainly believes in her methods.

Of course. Leliana has a dark streak and she uses ruthless methods. She has to as a spymaster. The key point is that she regrets it but believes there is no other way. She can be shown otherwise however. The Inquisitor has an advantage over her: they get three different points of view. Leliana only has the one and it's become a habit. Habits are really, really hard to break.


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#13282
Basement Cat

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Picking flowers with Josie.

gather_ye_rosebuds_while_ye_may_by_doria

X


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#13283
erikdlan

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*snip a scene I did want to see in DA:I*

*heavy breathing*

I don't know about you guys, but as far as my world state goes, where my Mahariel romanced Leliana but did the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, I can imagine how awkward it would be between the two of them if they started talking about the Warden.

We know Lels is grateful to Morrigan for saving her love's life, seems to have a soft spot for Kieran, and neither of them hate each other by DAI (hell, I think Morrigan is impressed/respects Leliana for what she's accomplished and Lels sure is concerned for Morri if she drank from the Well), but, still awkward...and I love it! :P

Awkward and with a potencial for disaster, but in my headcanon they dealt with their situation quite well. I imagined the common ground was Lels offering access to her personal library to Kieran. But oh boy, how hard i wanted a conversation between Leliana and Morrigan in DA:I!
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#13284
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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I'm still having feelings over here about my headcanon a while back that Morrigan makes my Warden (as in her 'sister') and Leliana Kieran's godparents in case tragedy strikes tho.

 

;_;

 

so purrrfect

 

hopefully it's never needed 

 

but still 


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#13285
ThePhoenixKing

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Merrill is pure. Everything that went wrong in her questing was Marethari's fault.

 

Preach it! For all the crap that Merrill gets, she at the very least took precautions against getting possessed by having Hawke there. Marethari just let Audacity into her because she was stupid enough to think she had the power to control it. Which comes across as more prideful to you?

 


Well I hope the Trickster god gets tricked out of his godhood and stops messing things up for everyone. He almost destroyed the world because he's a horrible judge of his own strength and other people's characters. Seriously, who in their right mind would trust Corypheus with anything?

 

So he is not so much a trickster god as a screw up god. If he'd stayed asleep none of the events of DAI would have happened.

 

Yeah, that last-minute revelation pretty much killed any sympathy I had for the character. I could barely stand his Warden bashing and his "you're a credit to your race" drivel before; learning that he pulled a high fantasy version of Iran-Contra certainly didn't win him any favours with me.

 

The term "necessary casualty" in and of itself smells SO FISHY that whenever someone says it, you should just relieve them of command.

With excessive use of force, if required. There is no such thing. Casualties will happen in those cases, but there never is one "necessary" casualty. Not even once.

 

Exactly. That's Loghain's attitude, "Oh, so what if I abandoned thousands of people to die at Ostagar? They were a necessary sacrifice to ensure Ferelden's freedom," yadda, yadda, yadda. It's an attitude my canon Warden definitely opposed, but then again, he was a Sharpe-esque lead from the front, never tell me the odds sort of fellow.



#13286
FiveThreeTen

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I wouldn't say that she has no agency. Just that her perspective is skewed. There is a difference between being helpless and needing help. Take for example someone with say, a broken ankle. They will compensate for it by using a crutch or leaning against a wall while  keeping their foot off the ground. Are they helpless? No. They are dealing with their problem the best way they know. Over time it heals, but it might not heal properly if it's not treated right and so they still limp once it's dealt with.

But if you deem her perspective skewed that need "fixing", it kinda sounds like it? That she was wrong all along to come back helping someone she believes in?

 

 

Do they lack agency if somebody else suggests getting a doctor to set the bone straight and put a cast to make sure it stays straight? Of course not. Psychological issues are similar: some people have inborn conditions that need special tools to deal with them, others get injured and remain scarred or even crippled from improper care. Leliana has agency, I just think she lacks the perspective and tools to deal with the damage properly.

 

Leliana's main issue that she clings to a single person and she tends to pick people with similar traits, so the pattern is repeated. Again, it's not a lack of agency, it's faulty perspective.

 

Edit: This conversation is tremendous fun and I hope you are not put off by my rambling. :)

 

They don't lack agency though it could sound patronizing? I just don't think Leliana is that helpless (yeah I know, you said she only needed help, still sounds the same to me in that situation XD) with dealing with her issues. Otherwise it makes the character less believable and too reliant on wether you harden her or not or choose to romance her.

Of course it isn't helped by the gameplay who demands investment from the player to help her "choose" a path.

In any case it's certainly less appealing to me.

 

That's why I don't mind that she becomes Left Hand regardless of the player actions. It gives some consistency to her character. While you would say she is consistent in wanting to be acknowledged and clings to the wrong people I would say that she is consistent in wanting to have a part in things she believes in (reforming the Chantry for example). Or we could say she is consistent in both case, I just choose to not put so much emphasis on the former despite her arc in Inquisition.

 

Err no worries, I'm not that good at articulating my thoughts anyway XD


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#13287
Mr Plow

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that beautiful pic of Morrigan and Leliana above is now my desktop pic

 

Morrigan's face looking at Leliana  - respect, contempt and wariness all in one glance

 

I like to think Leliana is sticking her tongue out at her :P


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#13288
Jaison1986

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Picking flowers with Josie.

gather_ye_rosebuds_while_ye_may_by_doria

X

 

Ow man, I wish we could see Josephine in an actual dress.

 

Regarding Morrigan, I wish there were some idle dialogue between them at Skyhold (similar to Alistair and Loghain). It would be really awkward if Leliana was romanced and Kieran is the warden's son. Or Leliana asking a romanced Morrigan how the warden is doing or something like that. That conversation with her and the Warden at Redcliffe castle made me feel like Leliana aways have feelings for the warden, even if he didn't romanced her.



#13289
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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I still think there should have been a conversation between Morrigan and Leliana about the Warden if she romanced Leliana and was a sister to Morrigan. Like Morrigan cautiously trying to ask her about her whereabouts while trying hard not to sound too concerned, even though she really is. :C

Too bad the Morrigan/female Warden friendship isn't even a tile in the Keep. Boo.
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#13290
YourFunnyUncle

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that beautiful pic of Morrigan and Leliana above is now my desktop pic

 

Morrigan's face looking at Leliana  - respect, contempt and wariness all in one glance

 

I like to think Leliana is sticking her tongue out at her :P

It's from the final war table meeting before going to fight Corypheus. I have basically that screenshot...

 

2015-01-04_00106.jpg


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#13291
Serza

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It's from the final war table meeting before going to fight Corypheus. I have basically that screenshot...

 

2015-01-04_00106.jpg

 

I might even have a video of that scene.

Probably. I seem to recall recording the ENTIRE finale, even the combat bits.



#13292
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Is that the bit where Morrigan just marches on in and Leliana shoots her an 'excuse me but who the **** asked you?' glare? I love that part. :P

#13293
YourFunnyUncle

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Is that the bit where Morrigan just marches on in and Leliana shoots her an 'excuse me but who the **** asked you?' glare? I love that part. :P

Quite possibly. This is the prior screengrab that I have...

 

2015-01-04_00103.jpg


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#13294
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Yeah, that expression is just asking for an 'is dis b**** serious right now' caption. :S
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#13295
N7_Heartfire

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So beautiful dat above pic of Lels being pissed.  :wub:  Magnificent as Zevran would say.

 

Any small conversation between Morrigan and Leliana, hell, even them being in the same room is guaranteed to destroy me in Inquisition.

 

I love the love/hate (more love than hate) relationship they have in DAI. With a large dose of respect that they have for each other underneath all that bickering. 

 

My Warden is so proud of both of them. His waifu and sort-a waifu.


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#13296
thats1evildude

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Ow man, I wish we could see Josephine in an actual dress.

 

Really? I'd much prefer to see her out of one. ;)


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#13297
YourFunnyUncle

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I should probably come in here more often. I liked this screengrab I got at the last "proclaiming the inquisitor" ceremony I played through.

 

2015-03-10_00331.jpg


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#13298
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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It's too bad Morrigan leaves Skyhold before the Warden returns.

I just want my Warden, her 'sister,' her 'nephew' (Kieran) and her wifey to have a nice family get-together or something. Maybe dinner. Just once. But neeewp Morrigan slips off again. *shakes fist*
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#13299
YourFunnyUncle

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It's too bad Morrigan leaves Skyhold before the Warden returns.

I just want my Warden, her 'sister,' her 'nephew' (Kieran) and her wifey to have a nice family get-together or something. Maybe dinner. Just once. But neeewp Morrigan slips off again. *shakes fist*

Haha! Morrigan's not one to hang around for long once she's done what she came to do...



#13300
I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE

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Haha! Morrigan's not one to hang around for long once she's done what she came to do...


Yeah. Just like DAO she slips off without even staying for the celebrations. With Kieran again too, only this time he isn't a zygote. :S

Sadly means my Warden and her are probably never going to see each other again. Hopefully she at least sent her good wishes for her with Leliana, for when she returns. :(