15912 réponses à ce sujet

[YourFunnyUncle]

Like for example that he lied about place of his birth and his village that turned out to be ruins abandoned for centuries , what she found after solas screwd them.

So an apostate who says he spends time in old ruins gives an old ruin as his place of birth? That's the extent of it? Wow, what a catastrophic failure.

[Basement Cat]

Uncle! Stop replying to TKS! We'll never be rid of him if you pay attention to him. He never has anything of value, interest or intelligence to contribute anyway. And I don't care if I get warned for this.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So an apostate who says he spends time in old ruins gives an old ruin as his place of birth? That's the extent of it? Wow, what a catastrophic failure.

No ,so an apostate says he grown up and was born in the village that turn out to be be ruins abandoned for centuries.

And yes considering he lied ,he was extremely suspicious from the beginning ,that she didn't check his story for such huge period of time and what allowed solas to trick inquisition ,it is a catastrophic failure.

 

Uncle! Stop replying to TKS! We'll never be rid of him if you pay attention to him. He never has anything of value, interest or intelligence to contribute anyway. And I don't care if I get warned for this.

Oh i have a lot to contribute that has value ,like for example information that many ignored in this thread , sadly when all you can do is show bias toward person and spawn dramatic cries like "TKS is stupid and eveything he says is stupid" or "everything you ever wrote contradicted itself " they won't notice that .

[YourFunnyUncle]

*checks codex*

When Solas initially approached the Inquisition and offered aid, I questioned him extensively about his background and history. He was evasive, but he did give the name of the village where he grew up, noting that it was small, unlikely to appear on any map.

I hate loose ends, so I kept a few of my agents searching, to verify his story. They recently located the village... or what remains of it. It is a ruin, as it has been for centuries, its name preserved only in degraded form in Ancient Tevinter mysteries. Whoever Solas truly is, wherever he came from, he has deceived us from the very start.

She did check. She had agents checking the whole time but it wasn't a high priority so they didn't find out until after he was gone. And that is the extent of her "catastrophic failure." Nothing else to say, really. Have a good day, Komandor.

[TheKomandorShepard]

*checks codex*
She did check. She had agents checking the whole time but it wasn't a high priority so they didn't find out until after he was gone. And that is the extent of her "catastrophic failure." Nothing else to say, really. Have a good day, Komandor.

She checked after he was gone ,considering that if i recall DG said that inquisition from start to the end was something about 3-4 years (or 2-3?) she did horrible job.  

[Serza]

Oh, I've heard of this myth, but I haven't encountered it for a long time.

 

People who come to character threads just to throw dirt at the characters.

 

Yay. I slow clap. Great job. Really. I'm totally not being sarcastic right now. I have also totally not lost some of my hope for humanity right now.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Oh, I've heard of this myth, but I haven't encountered it for a long time.

 

People who come to character threads just to throw dirt at the characters.

 

Yay. I slow clap. Great job. Really. I'm totally not being sarcastic right now. I have also totally not lost some of my hope for humanity right now.

Character threads aren't just to discuss positive things about character but also negative ,so briefly they are to discuss anything concerning character that thread is about.

 

More sad is rather that some people just can't stand criticism of their favorite characters ,in fact even worse simple asking dev if we will be able to remove leliana was met with hostility.

[YourFunnyUncle]

"Blah blah blah! Obey me! Arrow In My Face!" 

 

Source.

 

What? What did I say wrong? Stop looking at me like that!

[ThePhoenixKing]

Are you still mad about the Grey Wardens?

 

What can I say? Bad writing isn't like fine wine: it doesn't get better with age.

[AresKeith]

What can I say? Bad writing isn't like fine wine: it doesn't get better with age.

 

Eh debatable 

[Sifr]

She checked after he was gone ,considering that if i recall DG said that inquisition from start to the end was something about 3-4 years (or 2-3?) she did horrible job.  

 

Solas did tell her that his home village was so small and insignifcant that it'd not appear on any maps.

 

It's not like there aren't places in Thedas that happen to be like this, as in Origins, Daveth mentions the same thing is true about his home village near the Korcari Wilds, while it's remote location and hostile natives have caused Haven to likewise be overlooked for many centuries.

 

Besides, does the place he grew up have any bearing on anything they're doing really? He openly admits that he's travelled far and wide to explore ruins and memories they hold in the Fade, so it's unlikely he has ties to that place or has even been back for many years. Or maybe his family moved shortly after his birth and ended up living somewhere else. That's not exactly unheard of, even in Thedas?

 

Until he leaves at the end of the game, Solas never does anything to undermine or betray the Inquisitor and in fact was the reason for both keeping the Inquisitor alive, helping with the attempts to close the Breach, as well as providing the location of Skyhold after the attack on Haven, all things that only benefited the Inquisition during his time with them.

 

Even if Leliana was suspicious of him and his motives, those benefiicial actions might have convinced her that he had good intentions and made her decide against taking the necessary time to sending people out on a painstaking search of the countryside, to verify his background check.

 

When you have an insane darkspawn magister who wants to become a God or destroy the world, you probably have enough to deal with than checking out a one-horse hamlet that your resident apostate hobo was born in?

[TheKomandorShepard]

...

I would answer that if that it wouldn't end on you claming i contradicted myself with claming that leliana screwd up and leliana failed to verify solas story until it was too late ,so i will save arguments for someone else.  

[Sifr]

I would answer that if that it wouldn't end on you claming i contradicted myself with claming that leliana screwd up and leliana failed to verify solas story until it was too late ,so i will save arguments for someone else.  

 

You mean, you won't answer it because it totally deflates your argument.

 

You're saying that Leliana was a failure for not deciding that when they could be hunting for the evil darkspawn magister who is currently attempting to sow chaos, raise armies, assassinate empresses and destroy the very world as they know it... nah, it's far better to send your scouts out to look for the home village of one single member of your team, who's proven time and again they can probably be trusted?

 

Well, at least we know what TKS would be doing when Corypheus ended up taking over and reality began to collide with the Fade...

 

Good priorities there?

[TheKomandorShepard]

You mean, you won't answer it because it totally deflates your argument.

 

You're saying that Leliana was a failure for not deciding that when they could be hunting for the evil darkspawn magister who is currently attempting to sow chaos, raise armies, assassinate empresses and destroy the very world as they know it... nah, it's far better to send your scouts out to look for the home village of one single member of your team, who's proven time and again they can probably be trusted?

 

Well, at least we know what TKS would be doing when Corypheus ended up taking over and reality began to collide with the Fade...

 

Good priorities there?

Not rly as in fact it is poor excuse ,in first place Corypheus in any way don't excuse her failures in such basic matters like verifying companion story what in the end allowed solas trick inquisition.Pretty much same was with blackwall , all she needed to do is to interrogate this guy as this guy didn't knew much about blackwall and grey wardens.In the end she even admits it was her mistake ,unless you want to tell me that helping sera with pranks or dealing with josephine tea party were far more important than checking up companions that tricked inquisition.   

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, I'm not 100% keen on Leliana being the reincarnation of Andraste. That said, I'm certain she and my Warden did some Andraste/Shartan roleplaying once or twice

I like to think Andraste, the first holy was more faithful to her husband then to cheat on him.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Solas did tell her that his home village was so small and insignifcant that it'd not appear on any maps.

 

It's not like there aren't places in Thedas that happen to be like this, as in Origins, Daveth mentions the same thing is true about his home village near the Korcari Wilds, while it's remote location and hostile natives have caused Haven to likewise be overlooked for many centuries.

 

Besides, does the place he grew up have any bearing on anything they're doing really? He openly admits that he's travelled far and wide to explore ruins and memories they hold in the Fade, so it's unlikely he has ties to that place or has even been back for many years. Or maybe his family moved shortly after his birth and ended up living somewhere else. That's not exactly unheard of, even in Thedas?

 

Until he leaves at the end of the game, Solas never does anything to undermine or betray the Inquisitor and in fact was the reason for both keeping the Inquisitor alive, helping with the attempts to close the Breach, as well as providing the location of Skyhold after the attack on Haven, all things that only benefited the Inquisition during his time with them.

 

Even if Leliana was suspicious of him and his motives, those benefiicial actions might have convinced her that he had good intentions and made her decide against taking the necessary time to sending people out on a painstaking search of the countryside, to verify his background check.

 

When you have an insane darkspawn magister who wants to become a God or destroy the world, you probably have enough to deal with than checking out a one-horse hamlet that your resident apostate hobo was born in?

That's fine, and shows why she didn't focus heavily on finding Solas, but let me isolate the key part of the codex entry that I quoted: After saying that he was evasive and that he said the village wouldn't appear on any map, she says:

 

I hate loose ends, so I kept a few of my agents searching, to verify his story. 

 

 

She kept a few of her agents searching. This means that they were searching the whole time, since she interviewed Solas. She does not say "I sent agents recently in light of his disappearance". She had people searching the whole time, but, for the reasons you outline, she did not give the search a high priority. In fact, she goes on to say so.

 

I apologize for not investigating this more thoroughly while Solas was here. He was clearly helping us, and other matters were of greater urgency, but it was an oversight nevertheless, given how little he shared with us. It is not clear what his plans are, if any, but I will continue to search.

 

 She apologises for not investigating more thoroughly, not for failing to investigate at all. She's apologising for her priorities not for total lack of action.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's fine, and shows why she didn't focus heavily on finding Solas, but let me isolate the key part of the codex entry that I quoted: After saying that he was evasive and that he said the village wouldn't appear on any map, she says:

 

 

She kept a few of her agents searching. This means that they were searching the whole time, since she interviewed Solas. She does not say "I sent agents recently in light of his disappearance". She had people searching the whole time, but, for the reasons you outline, she did not give the search a high priority. In fact, she goes on to say so.

 

 She apologises for not investigating more thoroughly, not for failing to investigate at all. She's apologising for her priorities not for total lack of action.

And? Doesn't change fact she failed to confirm solas story for years until it was too late, what either shows that her people are incompetent or she put very little effort into that.So should she putt proper amount of effort solas bs would be discovered ,and that he was trusthworthy is poor argument again because he wasn't ,from the start he came up from nowhere and when interrogated provided very little information.

[Sifr]

Not rly as in fact it is poor excuse ,in first place Corypheus in any way don't excuse her failures in such basic matters like verifying companion story what in the end allowed solas trick inquisition.Pretty much same was with blackwall , all she needed to do is to interrogate this guy as this guy didn't knew much about blackwall and grey wardens.In the end she even admits it was her mistake ,unless you want to tell me that helping sera with pranks or dealing with josephine tea party were far more important than checking up companions that tricked inquisition.   

 

You do realise that unless she had access to a crystal ball that can see the future, she'd not know to focus on certain people in the Inquisition who might have "tricked" them, when at this point, proof of their deception was not exactly cut and dry?

 

With Blackwall, we get the sense that she might be suspicious of him as she comments that he's "not what she expected", so it's possible that given that she had the reports on Rainier, she might have been connecting the dots and collecting evidence before she actually presented it to everyone. Meanwhile, might as well make use of Blackwall since they have him, until she can call him out.

 

If she was sending people to check on Solas' backstory but made it low-priority, then it could the same thing? She recognised he was being evasive, but he'd conducted himself with enough trustworthiness that it was better to make use of his expertise than clap him in irons.

 

Besides, it's not like the rest of our gang are that trustworthy on the surface either?

 

You've got the elitist Circle Mage from the Imperial Court, a Tevinter noble who's former mentor was part of the Venatori (and if you recruit Templars, shows up in a very suspicious manner), a Spirit of the Fade who's skirted the line to becoming a demon a few times, a Qunari who freely admits to being a spy for his people, an Elven anarchist who's part of a Robin Hood organisation and a dwarf who lies all the time (and who hid Hawke from them).

 

Then there's the Inquisitor themselves, Lavellan and Cadash were sent to the Conclave as spies for the Dalish and the Carta, while Leliana herself hired Adaar and their merc band to serve as bouncers to keep the peace.

 

It's not like Leliana doesn't have experience working with untrustworthy people or those from strange backgrounds? During the Blight she worked with an abomination, the daughter of a legendary Witch, an Antivan Crow who tried unsuccessfully to carry out a hit on the party, the illegitimate son of the King, a Golem who used to be a female dwarf and a permanently drunken disgraced dwarven warrior.

 

Then the Warden is an exiled dwarven royal, the (supposed) last member of a noble house that was murdered and been branded traitors, a circle or elven mage who helped a blood mage escape, a member of the Dalish, a city elf who performed a rampage through the Arl of Denerim's estate or a former skullcracker for the Carta.

 

(When the Dog you regularly sic on people is the most trustworthy member of your group, that's when you should start worrying.)

 

I think it's safe to say, Leliana is aware that some people might have secrets or certain parts of their background they might not want to discuss. As a former bard, turned nun, turned spymaster, she knows that better than most.

 

And? Doesn't change fact she failed to confirm solas story for years until it was too late, what either shows that her people are incompetent or she put very little effort into that.So should she putt proper amount of effort solas bs would be discovered ,and that he was trusthworthy is poor argument again because he wasn't ,from the start he came up from nowhere and when interrogated provided very little information.

 

E'gads, you mean that you were expecting an Elven Apostate to spill the beans about practically all facets of his life, to people that that until very recently, belonged to the same religious organisation that tends to throw mages like him into Circles... especially since with his particular skills, they would have made him tranquil almost the moment he crossed the threshold of the Circle?

 

Yeah, I wonder why he might have been evasive about himself when questioned by crazy Chantry folk?

 

Also TKS, I wouldn't really put faith in the 3 year estimate, Gaider was speculating himself and admitted he didn't know and there's nothing in the game that supports it? Most of the romance dialogue such as with Cassandra and Josephine have them comment about meeting the Inquisitor "all those months ago", suggesting that the game takes place over a couple months, to a year at most?

 

In the Dark Future in Redcliffe, both the Wardens had been taken over and Celene killed during just the space of that one year, so assuming those events happened around the same in the normal timeline and were spread out, it's a safe bet to say that Inquisition ends around 9:42 at the very latest?

[TheKomandorShepard]

You do realise that unless she had access to a crystal ball that can see the future, she'd not know to focus on certain people in the Inquisition who might have "tricked" them, when at this point, proof of their deception was not exactly cut and dry?

 

With Blackwall, we get the sense that she might be suspicious of him as she comments that he's "not what she expected", so it's possible that given that she had the reports on Rainier, she might have been connecting the dots and collecting evidence before she actually presented it to everyone. Meanwhile, might as well make use of Blackwall since they have him, until she can call him out.

 

If she was sending people to check on Solas' backstory but made it low-priority, then it could the same thing? She recognised he was being evasive, but he'd conducted himself with enough trustworthiness that it was better to make use of his expertise than clap him in irons.

 

Besides, it's not like the rest of our gang are that trustworthy on the surface either?

 

You've got the elitist Circle Mage from the Imperial Court, a Tevinter noble who's former mentor was part of the Venatori (and if you recruit Templars, shows up in a very suspicious manner), a Spirit of the Fade who's skirted the line to becoming a demon a few times, a Qunari who freely admits to being a spy for his people, an Elven anarchist who's part of a Robin Hood organisation and a dwarf who lies all the time (and who hid Hawke from them).

 

Then there's the Inquisitor themselves, Lavellan and Cadash were sent to the Conclave as spies for the Dalish and the Carta, while Leliana herself hired Adaar and their merc band to serve as bouncers to keep the peace.

 

It's not like Leliana doesn't have experience working with untrustworthy people or those from strange backgrounds? During the Blight she worked with an abomination, the daughter of a legendary Witch, an Antivan Crow who tried unsuccessfully to carry out a hit on the party, the illegitimate son of the King, a Golem who used to be a female dwarf and a permanently drunken disgraced dwarven warrior.

 

Then the Warden is an exiled dwarven royal, the (supposed) last member of a noble house that was murdered and been branded traitors, a circle or elven mage who helped a blood mage escape, a member of the Dalish, a city elf who performed a rampage through the Arl of Denerim's estate or a former skullcracker for the Carta.

 

(When the Dog you regularly sic on people is the most trustworthy member of your group, that's when you should start worrying.)

 

I think it's safe to say, Leliana is aware that some people might have secrets or certain parts of their background they might not want to discuss. As a former bard, turned nun, turned spymaster, she knows that better than most.

 

 

E'gads, you mean that you were expecting an Elven Apostate to spill the beans about practically all facets of his life, to people that that until very recently, belonged to the same religious organisation that tends to throw mages like him into Circles... especially since with his particular skills, they would have made him tranquil almost the moment he crossed the threshold of the Circle?

 

Yeah, I wonder why he might have been evasive about himself when questioned by crazy Chantry folk?

 

Also TKS, I wouldn't really put faith in the 3 year estimate, Gaider was speculating himself and admitted he didn't know and there's nothing in the game that supports it? Most of the romance dialogue such as with Cassandra and Josephine have them comment about meeting the Inquisitor "all those months ago", suggesting that the game takes place over a couple months, to a year at most?

 

In the Dark Future in Redcliffe, both the Wardens had been taken over and Celene killed during just the space of that one year, so assuming those events happened around the same in the normal timeline and were spread out, it's a safe bet to say that Inquisition ends around 9:42 at the very latest?

 

Why you would need crystal ball to predict that somone suspicious may be traitor or have hidden agenda ,unless you want to tell me that deception is always predictable and when not it isn't deception...

 

Well then she failed terribly ,avoiding that finding out he isn't blackwall would be comically easy with information she had ,pretty much it may cost inquisition dearly when inquisition have to pay a lot because people found he wasn't blackwall.

 

Or you could do both ,so yet another her brilliant plan ended in spectacular failure as solas gets away fooling her and inquistion...

 

Well those plans are also nothing more than speculation and even if devs confirmed that it was her plan they were failure and not very bright anyway.

 

Far more trustworthy because at least there were confirmed informations about other companions (save for blackwall) , solas came up from nowhere with almost no information about him. 

 

Also pretty much sure there are informations about inquisitor as well.

 

So what .it has absolutly no revelance that she deals with untrustworthy people to that she failed check such person for years (or at least large portion of time) what lead to being screwd by that person. 

 

Yep pretty much i would expect that considering he came to them willingly ,so pretty much fact that elven apostate came from nowhere and offered to help then was dodgy during interrogation makes him very suspicious in my book , and needless to say i was proven correct? 

 

About timeline that is possible , but somehow i don't belive that it took only 1 year ,i would say at least 2 years ,way too big scope for 1 year when it took more than 1 year to take care of blight.But if we assume that for example it was short period of time it would be justified with that they had very little time.

 

As for the warden being untrustworthy ,hardly considering he was founder and leader of this group so i don't see why s/he would betray his own cause.While yes the warden may be liar and stab people in the back he never betrays team no s/he have reason to.  

[FadelessRipley]

Well the thread has gotten lively again...  All I'll say is that while anyone is free to comment on ANY thread about anything remotely related to the topic, the clue is kind of in the title: 

 

"Sister Nightingale: Leliana in DA:I Appreciation & Discussion..."

 

It's mostly inhabited by fans of the character. I don't like Vivienne, so I don't post in her thread. I read it occasionally to see people's perspectives on her, but I won't go off constantly posting about why I don't like her. I'll mention her in something like "Least favourite characters" or something, but I won't go dissing her in the little corner of the BSN that houses her fans. "Leliana is an incompetent moron" is covered in plenty of threads. AFAIK there's nothing to actually stop someone starting a purely critical thread for a character, either.

 

Constantly posting the same criticisms over and over in a fan thread for a character isn't going to go down well. It's going to end up in a constant argument, and you will be literally talking to a wall. Why not stick to the other threads? Constantly posting here in response to people who actually really like Leliana looks needlessly argumentative at best, downright trolling at worst. To be fair TKS, you pretty much repeat yourself with every post you make criticising Leliana, and those of us who like her character do the same in turn saying why we don't agree. Folks like Uncle in particular explained our thoughts pretty well - you disagree. Fine! We'll never agree, so maybe let it be? 

 

On the point of Solas, I'm more surprised at Morrigan not twigging earlier on to be honest, but anyway. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Mods already explained it even here in this thread, that they want single character thread so thus any comments about character write in character threads not create more topics about same characters.

 

Also funnily neither i write in this topic often at best occasionally nor i talk about the same considering that it is my first discussion about her screw up with blackwall and solas in that topic if i recall, i didn't even  started that discussion in first place.

 

Well it is your choice that you don't write in viviene topic ,but you are free to do so.  

[FadelessRipley]

Fair enough. It just isn't very productive to be honest, having the same arguments over and over. I've no idea who your personal favourite character is (you told me who you liked once and I've forgotten, I apologise), but try and remember that some people really do love these characters, even the ones you hate. Yes you point out valid criticisms sometimes - I wasn't overly thrilled with Leliana's development in DA:I myself and she's my personal favourite. Most sane fans can handle criticism of their favourites, I know I'm certainly happy to. Forgive me for saying so, but your tone comes across as condescending at times, whether you mean it or not. 

 

Maybe you can't think of one redeeming quality in Leliana's character, and that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion, and to post wherever you want. Maybe just be more willing to agree to disagree sometimes perhaps. Or not, it's a free world! 

[YourFunnyUncle]

Just doing Josephine's personal quest. Love this moment...

 

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Never understood why people feel the need to go to appreciation threads just to hate On a character

Just ignore them and move on

[myahele]

Given the new information regarding Spirits and their relationship with non-mage people ; could it be possible that the voice she heard was just a spirit comforting her? That this same spirit may have lead/compelled Dorothea (?) to free Leliana?

 

Perhaps it's the same spirit that healed her wounds if the Warden "killed" her?