15912 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

About Hawke and HoF i meant that the Inquisitor could have been anyone. The Inquisition would have been created with the help or not of the Herald, and I disagree that the organization was made around their leader because of what i said earlier, s/he had no choice, it was about to being made with him/her or without.

 

It would have grow without the Herald too, all the quests that requires you to help someone to gain their trust and approval are sent by the advisors. And that means that if the Inquisitor didn't do the work someone else would have done it. The anchor just made things easier since faithful people did believe in such religious things, and it would have been very silly to not use it as an advantage to gain support.

 

Of course when thinking about the Inquisition the Herald of Andraste will come to mind, s/he is their icon, but that doesn't mean that is the higher rank. The Inquisitor doesn't have full power over the organization, s/he is the face, not the one who give the orders. 

 

As i pointed in my other post, Inquisitor power over the Inquisition is limited. Kinda ironic. 

 

What doesn't matter ,as i said yes everyone could have been inquisitor (but not rly with smiliar effect) but in this timelane/reality/whatever inquisition was build and raised its power around herald of andraste pretty much using inquisitor as icon for that organisation.As i said "what could have been" is completely irrelevant here as "what could have been" is completely irrelevant to the fact the warden is national hero despite he could have died during joining and never become hero what is important that s/he didn't die and s/he did became a hero.  

 

Not rly , in "bad endings" where inquisitor dies inquisition soon falls apart without inquisitor.  

 

Of course it doesn't the fact he has highest rank in organisation and is leader of whole organisation pretty much damn means.

 

It isn't unless inquisitor would let this happen ,pretty much envy demon if you fail use your position to do things he showed you he would do .

 

 

 

Failing and learning from it automatically OBLITERATES any "sue" traits the character has and I have bridge to sell to anyone who thinks otherwise. Its not even an opinion, its a fact. Check the definition of mary sue.

Nope it doesn't because im sure it didn't obliterate her ending.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

[N7_Heartfire]

Lol the Cass thread just turned into a leliana hate thread.

Sad that simply mentioning her causes some hate. Why do people hate her so much?

 

I'm loving these statistics, no offense. XD

 

From what I saw in the Cass thread only a few members didn't like her, considering how many members there are on BSN and that it isn't the only DA forum around, hate is a strong word to use for her. There are many other DA characters who are hated more, and I'd say after Inquisition more people like Leliana than hate her, from what I see on Tumblr and Youtube at least.

 

The only thing she gets the most flack is her coming back from the dead if you killed her in Origins, but even the developers have said that so few players killed her there wouldn't be a problem with their canon take of her character.

 

I've yet to see a decent argument from a person who doesn't like her character, the common response being: she's boring, she's preachy, she doesn't obey the Inquisitor, she doesn't stay dead, she's a poor spymaster...etc. Did those who don't like her even bother to do a little research/read the codex entries for Blackwall/Solas?

[Kukuru]

What doesn't matter ,as i said yes everyone could have been inquisitor (but not rly with smiliar effect) but in this timelane/reality/whatever inquisition was build and raised its power around herald of andraste pretty much using inquisitor as icon for that organisation.As i said "what could have been" is completely irrelevant here as "what could have been" is completely irrelevant to the fact the warden is national hero despite he could have died during joining and never become hero what is important that s/he didn't die and s/he did became a hero.  

 

 

You are right, those scenarios shouldn't make a point.

 

 

 

Not rly , in "bad endings" where inquisitor dies inquisition soon falls apart without inquisitor.  

 

Of course it doesn't the fact he has highest rank in organisation and is leader of whole organisation pretty much damn means.

 

It isn't unless inquisitor would let this happen ,pretty much envy demon if you fail use your position to do things he showed you he would do .

 

 

Mostly because Cory taking whole Thedas, without the anchor rifts can't be closed and demons camper all around. 

 

Ingame it looks like just a title, as you pointed before about Leliana not doing what you told her to do (not killing Natalie) and not being able to punish her for that, well, you are actually following advisors orders the whole game but they don't always do what you suggest. Either Inquisitor and advisors are in the same rank, or they are higher.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Mostly because Cory taking whole Thedas, without the anchor rifts can't be closed and demons camper all around. 

 

Ingame it looks like just a title, as you pointed before about Leliana not doing what you told her to do (not killing Natalie) and not being able to punish her for that, well, you are actually following advisors orders the whole game but they don't always do what you suggest. Either Inquisitor and advisors are in the same rank, or they are higher.

In some yes others outright state that inquisitor being gone lead to inquisiton falling apart.

 

It is more of her mary sue/plot armor status than anything your relationship with josephine and cullen is entirely different when you give them order then they follow (even if they don't like it) ,hell from what i recall you can order cullen to take or not lyrium.Same problem was with viviene and talis ,despite they pretty much would stomp viviene as she has no position in inquisition whatsoever you can't because you simple aren't allowed to ,and with talis despite pretty much hawke could stomp her in combat and s/he had companions on his side ,at best s/he can yell at tallis that s/he will kill her or to give him/her list of qunari spies ,and yet s/he just watches like talis slowly goes away like ****** despite second ago they were talking about killing her. 

 

And no you aren't following advisors orders ,at best you are following their suggestions that is why they are advisors.  

[ThePhoenixKing]

Just as a friendly reminder to everyone that this is an Appreciation Thread. If you feel the need to bash Leliana, bugger off and do so elsewhere.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Again this is character thread you discuss anything about character that thread is about (what we do) ,even mod said so as they don't want to hundreds threads about one character.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Again this is character thread you discuss anything about character that thread is about (what we do) ,even mod said so as they don't want to hundreds threads about one character.

 

I'd like to hear that from them, if you don't mind, not a troll barely capable of forming a coherent sentence.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'd like to hear that from them, if you don't mind, not a troll barely capable of forming a coherent sentence.

of course im troll ,not a person who starts conversation with hostility and insults , totally proved your point.

 

As for response here have it ,but i shouldn't even bother and just report your post.

[Kukuru]

Link

 

 

 

[DubheFera]

The argument "the Inquisition falls apart without the Inquisitor" makes no sense because he/she is the only one that can close the rifts. If we have a mage, a warrior and a rogue, they need to open a door but the rogue's died early on the quest, the mission fails because any other character manage to open the door... but that doesn't means that the rogue must be the highest ranking character. We may say that each character is specialized in something, and the Inquisitor's specialization is closing rifts... And you have the chance to make sure that Leliana doesn't kill natalie, simply if you didn't satisfy the requirements early on the game is entirely your fault.

 

By the way, I saw some days ago a thread "Why everyone hates Anders?" or something like that, so I dont't think it should be such a problem a thread about dislinking a character...

[TheKomandorShepard]

The argument "the Inquisition falls apart without the Inquisitor" makes no sense because he/she is the only one that can close the rifts. If we have a mage, a warrior and a rogue, they need to open a door but the rogue's died early on the quest, the mission fails because any other character manage to open the door... but that doesn't means that the rogue must be the highest ranking character. We may say that each character is specialized in something, and the Inquisitor's specialization is closing rifts... And you have the chance to make sure that Leliana doesn't kill natalie, simply if you didn't satisfy the requirements early on the game is entirely your fault.

 

By the way, I saw some days ago a thread "Why everyone hates Anders?" or something like that, so I dont't think it should be such a problem a thread about dislinking a character...

Eeee...

eee...

It makes sense because it isn't about breach (what could have happened after breach was closed) and especially rifts (they are pretty much irrelevant after haven and even before) it is about inquisition falling apart without inquisitor .

 

And this is utterly irrelevant to the simple fact she disobeys your order in that scenario...   

[God is Tigger]

I can see why some people would put Leliana in the "Victim - Mary Sue" definition, though i wouldn't define her as that.

 

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary+Sue

 

 

 

In addition, failed Leliana romance:

Spoiler

Link.

Ha.  Should have gone with a bald Warden.  

[N7_Heartfire]

People complain that Leliana is a 'Mary-sue' (though I doubt if they even knew what that word meant they wouldn't use it for her), yet they call her stupid, incompetent, a poorly written character when she makes mistakes and shows that she has flaws which is a very realistic take on her character as it shows she is human with her own strengths and weaknesses. 

 

People on the BSN complain for years how they tire of Bioware companions that always follow the player around and never confront them about their choices/refuse to accept the player's actions, yet jump into the Leliana-is-a-traitor-for-not-following-every-single-order-from-the-Inquisitor bandwagon, hating her for lifting her voice when talking to the Herald at Haven or killing Natalie.

 

In other words, people don't know what they want anymore. It seems a lot more convincing that the hate comments about Leliana are just to p*** her fans off rather than give a decent argument which is backed up by in-game facts about what is they don't like about her.

[Basement Cat]

People complain that Leliana is a 'Mary-sue' (though I doubt if they even knew what that word meant they wouldn't use it for her), yet they call her stupid, incompetent, a poorly written character when she makes mistakes and shows that she has flaws which is a very realistic take on her character as it shows she is human with her own strengths and weaknesses. 

 

People on the BSN complain for years how they tire of Bioware companions that always follow the player around and never confront them about their choices/refuse to accept the player's actions, yet jump into the Leliana-is-a-traitor-for-not-following-every-single-order-from-the-Inquisitor bandwagon, hating her for lifting her voice when talking to the Herald at Haven or killing Natalie.

 

In other words, people don't know what they want anymore. It seems a lot more convincing that the hate comments about Leliana are just to p*** her fans off rather than give a decent argument which is backed up by in-game facts about what is they don't like about her.

Not really. It's different people complaining, that's all.

 

And stop feeding the troll, guys.

[TheKomandorShepard]

People complain that Leliana is a 'Mary-sue' (though I doubt if they even knew what that word meant they wouldn't use it for her), yet they call her stupid, incompetent, a poorly written character when she makes mistakes and shows that she has flaws which is a very realistic take on her character as it shows she is human with her own strengths and weaknesses. 

 

People on the BSN complain for years how they tire of Bioware companions that always follow the player around and never confront them about their choices/refuse to accept the player's actions, yet jump into the Leliana-is-a-traitor-for-not-following-every-single-order-from-the-Inquisitor bandwagon, hating her for lifting her voice when talking to the Herald at Haven or killing Natalie.

 

In other words, people don't know what they want anymore. It seems a lot more convincing that the hate comments about Leliana are just to p*** her fans off rather than give a decent argument which is backed up by in-game facts about what is they don't like about her.

 

Who called her stupid here? Incompetent or rather should i say incompetence don't necessarily save character from being marry sue and marry sue is a poorly written character. Doesn't change fact that narrative praise her to havens and yet sweeps her failures under the carpet among other many things that i have already mentioned (and many other people) on why she is one. 

 

Companion/npc not listenting to eveyrthing pc say ≠ taking agency from player to react properly for example on companion/npc treachery.

 

So no it is more of case that people that can't stand that other people criticize characters they like and when they see somone does that they scream such people are trolls or haters.Best example was when i asked developer if we will able remove leliana from inquisition , reaction was such as i described.   

[Kukuru]

Just noticed the link i posted yesterday leads to this thread.

 

http://www.urbandict...p?term=Mary Sue

 

Quick resume: Mary Sue is a character with no flaws.

 

I didn't even know what it was until i saw it in these forums.

 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Just noticed the link i posted yesterday leads to this thread.

 

http://www.urbandict...p?term=Mary Sue

 

Quick resume: Mary Sue is a character with no flaws.

 

I didn't even know what it was until i saw it in these forums.

Mary sue can have flaws as she is "perfect" as author describes just pretty much as i said narrative ignores them and sweep under the carpet and yells to you how great character is (what is in case here).   

[Lulupab]

Nope it doesn't because im sure it didn't obliterate her ending.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hardened Leliana ending. I agree that softened Leliana ending is rather unbelievable.

 

You should not underestimate the power of knowing every secret of every noble and having agents everywhere. If you kill the right people at the right time like a coup, which is what hardened Leliana does, its possible to bring a change.

[TheKomandorShepard]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hardened Leliana ending. I agree that softened Leliana ending is rather unbelievable.

 

You should not underestimate the power of knowing every secret of every noble and having agents everywhere. If you kill the right people at the right time like a coup, which is what hardened Leliana does, its possible to bring a change. Which is what hardened Leliana does.

Both are hardened version is just more tolerable as it lacks part when she talks down her opponents with power of love.So leliana pretty much can can eradicate hundreds of years (far more than that) justified fear and hatred toward mages ,because otherwise that wouldn't have any chance of working.

 

This would put made majority nobles (not to mention clergy) in thedas including monarchs not very happy about her also pretty much majority of folks in thedas that would not only dislike that but also pretty much end up emraged because numbers of incidents caused by mages and those that hit population would increase drastically because of fact mages being free (thus no fear of punishment and latitude) and not being isolated from folks.

 

So in the end there would be no enough assassins or secrets in the world to help her here ,pretty much it would end on her being assassinated or torn apart by angry folks.If that was so easy pretty much justinia would create utopia with her views not to mention that she couldn't even express her views on elves in public....

 

Spoiler

Pretty much this

[Lulupab]

Both are hardened version is just more tolerable as it lacks part when she talks down her opponents with power of love.So leliana pretty much can can eradicate hundreds of years (far more than that) justified fear and hatred toward mages ,because otherwise that wouldn't have any chance of working.

 

This would put made majority nobles (not to mention clergy) in thedas including monarchs not very happy about her also pretty much majority of folks in thedas that would not only dislike that but also pretty much end up emraged because numbers of incidents caused by mages and those that hit population would increase drastically because of fact mages being free (thus no fear of punishment and latitude) and not being isolated from folks.

 

So in the end there would be no enough assassins or secrets in the world to help her here ,pretty much it would end on her being assassinated or torn apart by angry folks.If that was so easy pretty much justinia would create utopia with her views not to mention that she couldn't even express her views on elves in public....

 

Spoiler

Pretty much this

 

Ferelden has pretty much move past that fear, SPECIALLY if Alistair is ruling. Its probably the most pro-mage country in Thedas, after Rivain. And since he is pretty much adored by the people, they will follow him. It started from Alistair Cameo in DA2 where he welcomed the idea of kicking out the Templar order from Ferelden and he protected apostates.

 

Leliana kills the leader of every clergy sect that opposes her. Clergy will bow down, specially because of the fact that Leliana is the most favorite divine among the common people based on her goals. She is the true heir of Justinia as she follows her ideals and Divine Justinia was one of the most influential and loved Divines of all time, people can clearly see that Leliana is following her example.

 

As for Orlais, Celene needs to the ruler. Its one of the factors that contributes to Leliana's chance of becoming divine, specially if you reconcile Briala with her. Celene will do what Alistair does for Orlais. She also has the charm and cunning needed to lead her people towards Leliana's goals.

 

Its an ambitious ending, but with right people in power and the leaders of opposition dead, its pretty much possible.

[Basement Cat]

@Lulupab:

 

Actually, setting up Gaspard as a puppet for Brialia is what favors Leliana the most.

[Lulupab]

@Lulupab:

 

Actually, setting up Gaspard as a puppet for Brialia is what favors Leliana the most.

 

Really? Well maybe it favors her more than Celene + Briala, but C+B still favors Leliana too even if lesser than Briala through Gaspard.

 

Gaspard alone completely opposes Leliana's chances, so I think a worldstate with Celene as leader fits Leliana's ending better due to Celene's view on mages and sharing personality traits with Leliana.

[Basement Cat]

Really? Well maybe it favors her more than Celene + Briala, but C+B still favors Leliana too even if lesser than Briala through Gaspard.

 

Gaspard alone completely opposes Leliana's chances, so I think a worldstate with Celene as leader fits Leliana's ending better due to Celene's view on mages and sharing personality traits with Leliana.

From what I gathered, this is how it works:

 

Celene alone: favors only Vivienne

Celene + Briala: favors Vivienne and Leliana equally

Gaspard + Briala: favors only Leliana

Gaspard alone: favors only Cassandra

 

Of course, that is just one factor that influences the outcome. It's possible to get Leliana as Divine even without the main boosts: free mages and ally with Briala.