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[N7_Heartfire]

Uh-hunh.  Tell me, in what city was Leliana captured and abused?  Was it Val Royeaux or Denerim?  

 

Val Royeaux, just like she told the Warden. And this is confirmed in her biography in World of Thedas Vol.2. I thought it was pretty obvious by now.

[LadyStoneheart]

I still hold on to the opinion that the Warden and Josie are the only living people who know the real Leliana. What she really is like when all her masks come off.

 

The fact that Josie is the only person in Inquisition who doesn't seem to be intimidated/scared of Leliana is proof of this. Through banter/messengers you can see Josie is trying to get Lels to chill a little, to get away from her work as an assassin because Josie knows how much it has damaged her.

 

I would also include Cassandra among the few people who aren't intimidated by Leliana. She may not know her as intimately as Josie or the Warden, but she's familiar with Leliana's darker side (more familiar than them, I'd say): she probably witnessed the gradual changes in her character during the years they spent working together as Hands of the Divine. It's a pity this wasn't explored more in DAI but I guess it makes sense given the circumstances.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Well, if we have a Citadel DLC for Inquisition, here's hoping that softened Leliana would get high and go wild during the party....To the amazement of everyone in the Inquisition team, except perhaps Josie.

[N7_Heartfire]

I would also include Cassandra among the few people who aren't intimidated by Leliana. She may not know her as intimately as Josie or the Warden, but she's familiar with Leliana's darker side (more familiar than them, I'd say): she probably witnessed the gradual changes in her character during the years they spent working together as Hands of the Divine. It's a pity this wasn't explored more in DAI but I guess it makes sense given the circumstances.

 

Yeah, forgot to include Cassandra as well. She's probably the only one who has witnessed Leliana at her darkest the most. And Justinia even kept some of the things Leliana did as secret from Cass. 

 

Not surprising, Cassandra might have some tolerance for morally grey decisions but there's a limit how long she will keep silent about it,

 

I liked Cass and Lels' interactions as Left-Right Hand, you can see they don't agree most of the time but they don't hate each other. There's a lot of respect there. Through messenger banter you find out they even do favors for each other. And the fact Cass knows about Leliana's obsession with nugs and about Schmooples I get the impression they even hung out and got to know each other better when off-duty. At least in the days when Leliana was still her Origins self and knew how to relax and have fun.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Yeah, forgot to include Cassandra as well. She's probably the only one who has witnessed Leliana at her darkest the most. And Justinia even kept some of the things Leliana did as secret from Cass. 

 

Not surprising, Cassandra might have some tolerance for morally grey decisions but there's a limit how long she will keep silent about it,

 

I liked Cass and Lels' interactions as Left-Right Hand, you can see they don't agree most of the time but they don't hate each other. There's a lot of respect there. Through messenger banter you find out they even do favors for each other. And the fact Cass knows about Leliana's obsession with nugs and about Schmooples I get the impression they even hung out and got to know each other better when off-duty. At least in the days when Leliana was still her Origins self and knew how to relax and have fun.

 

Yeah, you definitely get the sense that there's a lot of mutual history and respect between the two, and it's one of my favourite friendships in the game.

 

Also, regarding Leliana's characterization in Origins, I can't really see her behaviour there as anything less than genuine. The values and ideals she expresses and acts upon while in the Warden's party feel authentic, and not the product of some subversive plot (a plot to accomplish what, of course, is never explained in any of these "Leliana was faking" theories).

 

And as for this notion of trying to be a better person to cover up her past misdeeds a la Blackwall: even if it is true, what does it matter? At the very least, she's trying to be a better person, and trying to make a better world in the process, which is more than most people dream of doing, let alone actually accomplish (cough, Dorian). By and large, I'd much rather deal with someone who's doing good for more selfish personal motivations than someone who's authentically an ******* (cough, Vivienne).

[LadyStoneheart]

L.: My position here involves a degree of-

C.: She's our spymaster.

L.: (scowls) Yes. Tactfully put, Cassandra.

 

This scene never fails to make me smile Since the very first time we saw them interact (at the end of DA2) this has been the dynamic between them. They probably argued so many times that by now Cassandra anticipates what Leliana is trying to say and often cuts her off because she's clearly not impressed with the whole "fearsome spymaster" façade.

But yeah, despite their constant bickering there's a lot of respect between them:

 

Blackwall: Is it true that Leliana knows everything about everyone?

Cassandra: Only the Maker knows everything about everyone, but it doesn't hurt if people believe it of Leliana.

Blackwall: You encourage it?

Cassandra: It keeps people honest. Besides, if there is anything to learn, Leliana will learn it. I've seen her work.

Blackwall: Right. Good to know.

 

Subtlety and deception are definitely not Cassandra's thing but she still has Leliana's back, she knows better than most people how important her job is and how much it's affecting her.

[N7_Heartfire]

Yeah, I agree.

 

I've also noticed how Cassandra never fails to mention Leliana whenever someone praises Cass about her work for the Inquisition. She never forgets to give Leliana credit and even says she is her equal. She also always defends her against Vivienne during banter about Divine candidacy.

 

I never understand how some people claim they had no chemistry and they hate each other. Their interactions felt natural and not forced.

 

I for one never understood where the bromance between Cass and Cullen came from since not only do they hardly interact in-game but I get the impression they barely even like each other. She only has once scene where she talks to him about his lyrium addiction but her help is not surprising considering Cullen is the only influential templar in the organization and his mental state could directly influence the Inquisition soldiers.

[Kukuru]

I still don't understand why some people can't like both characters.

 

 

Is that the romance dialogue or just high approval?

 

It's the romance dialogue.

[LadyStoneheart]

 She also always defends her against Vivienne during banter about Divine candidacy.

I didn't know about this   What does she say exactly?

[N7_Heartfire]

In a banter with Cass about the candidate for Divine, Vivienne says something about Leliana playing a pretty Game with a sort of mocking tone and Cass says that Leliana is an intelligent woman with strong convictions and that she will do good as Divine. Vivienne even ridicules Leliana by calling her a fool in a cutscene with the Inquisitor right after the cleric arrives at Skyhold about the next Divine.

 

Apart from that banter, I can't remember Cassandra ever keeping quiet whenever someone says something distasteful about Leliana. But then again hardly anyone spoke ill of her in-game seeing as how nearly everyone is scared of her.

[andy6915]

So I just made a theory that Leliana is Andraste reborn, completely off the cuff and just thought of. I just posted about it in another thread.

 

"Hm... Claims to hear the maker and seems to know him better than most, has prophetic visions that actually let her predict the future on some level, is red headed just like Andraste was, gets uber mad when you defile the ashes to the point where it's almost as if she felt a kinship with them, has a magical resurrection if killed... Maybe the Cult of Andraste was right, she was reborn. They simply got it wrong about who or what her reborn self was ."

 

What do Leliana fans think?

[andy6915]

Val Royeaux, just like she told the Warden. And this is confirmed in her biography in World of Thedas Vol.2. I thought it was pretty obvious by now.

 

So Bioware contradicts their own lore. It was in Denerim, period. She was captured by Commander Raleigh and tortured, and this was when she met Justinia before she was divine when she had Leliana taken to the Amaranthine chantry after Leliana freed herself. The story she gave to the Warden was a lie, Orlais had nearly nothing to do with it. The true story that she gives the Warden later is the story she tells you in first person in Leliana's Song. If WoT2 says that, then it's wrong.

[YourFunnyUncle]

So I just made a theory that Leliana is Andraste reborn, completely off the cuff and just thought of. I just posted about it in another thread.

 

"Hm... Claims to hear the maker and seems to know him better than most, has prophetic visions that actually let her predict the future on some level, is red headed just like Andraste was, gets uber mad when you defile the ashes to the point where it's almost as if she felt a kinship with them, has a magical resurrection if killed... Maybe the Cult of Andraste was right, she was reborn. They simply got it wrong about who or what her reborn self was ."

 

What do Leliana fans think?

Fun, but rather tenuous... The "resurrection" only happens in a small percentage of playthroughs, and if she truly were Andraste reborn you'd expect her to automatically become Divine and/or lead the Inquisition outright...

[andy6915]

Fun, but rather tenuous... The "resurrection" only happens in a small percentage of playthroughs, and if she truly were Andraste reborn you'd expect her to automatically become Divine and/or lead the Inquisition outright...

 

Not if she has no memories in her new form. It could just be a temporary form she took because she foresaw the events that would take place during the Dragon Age and decided she needed to help, so she made a whole new body from scratch to be born from a mother she chose that lacked all memory of her past life. When she dies, she will likely regain all her old memories. She didn't want to come down from heaven as a holy figure with a big display that would shake the world, she subtly reappeared in the world in a new body that was grown in a womb and born from a mother like anyone else and with no memories.

 

edit:

 

Reading this, I'm seeing quite a lot of Jesus allegory.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Not if she has no memories in her new form. It could just be a temporary form she took because she foresaw the events that would take place during the Dragon Age and decided she needed to help, so she made a whole new body from scratch to be born from a mother she chose that lacked all memory of her past life. When she dies, she will likely regain all her old memories. She didn't want to come down from heaven as a holy figure with a big display that would shake the world, she subtly reappeared in the world in a new body that was grown in a womb and born from a mother like anyone else and with no memories.

 

edit:

 

Reading this, I'm seeing quite a lot of Jesus allegory.

You appear to be extrapolating rather wildly from very little data...

[ThePhoenixKing]

Yeah, I agree.

 

I've also noticed how Cassandra never fails to mention Leliana whenever someone praises Cass about her work for the Inquisition. She never forgets to give Leliana credit and even says she is her equal. She also always defends her against Vivienne during banter about Divine candidacy.

 

I never understand how some people claim they had no chemistry and they hate each other. Their interactions felt natural and not forced.

 

I for one never understood where the bromance between Cass and Cullen came from since not only do they hardly interact in-game but I get the impression they barely even like each other. She only has once scene where he talks to him about his lyrium addiction but her help is not surprising considering Cullen is the only influential templar in the organization and his mental state could directly influence the Inquisition soldiers.

 

 

Yeah, that was a nice touch. Too often, fandom is so focused on romantic relationships that they forget a friendship can be just as meaningful and important. As I seem to recall, Cass and Leliana are respectful to each other even when competing for the position of Divine too. As for why people think the two hate each other while believing Cass and Cullen are best buds? Doesn't make any sense for myself either, but let's face it, it's not the most insane interpretation of characters and their interactions this fandom has come up with.

 

So I just made a theory that Leliana is Andraste reborn, completely off the cuff and just thought of. I just posted about it in another thread.

 

"Hm... Claims to hear the maker and seems to know him better than most, has prophetic visions that actually let her predict the future on some level, is red headed just like Andraste was, gets uber mad when you defile the ashes to the point where it's almost as if she felt a kinship with them, has a magical resurrection if killed... Maybe the Cult of Andraste was right, she was reborn. They simply got it wrong about who or what her reborn self was ."

 

What do Leliana fans think?

 

Ehh, I could take it or leave it. Leliana being a reincarnation/descendant of Andraste would be interesting, but she works fine just the way she is. Not everything has to connect to a meta-plot. Sometimes, it's perfectly okay for the people you meet in the games just to be people.

[andy6915]

Ehh, I could take it or leave it. Leliana being a reincarnation/descendant of Andraste would be interesting, but she works fine just the way she is. Not everything has to connect to a meta-plot. Sometimes, it's perfectly okay for the people you meet in the games just to be people.

 

I know. It was just a fun idea that suddenly popped into my head and I thought it was interesting. I'm not going to really argue for it, I'm not nearly invested enough in it to do so. I'm not even sure myself how likely it actually is. Besides, Solas is already the Dread Wolf and Sera is already Andruil... It's not like we need another ancient god/holy figure from ancient past in the present. Although it would be a good counter seeing as elves seem to have a monopoly on their divine beings still existing in modern Thedas in some form, let humans get in on that too with one of their own divine figure being reborn in the present.

[Illegitimus]

Val Royeaux, just like she told the Warden. And this is confirmed in her biography in World of Thedas Vol.2. I thought it was pretty obvious by now.

 

Ever play Leliana's Song?  

[thats1evildude]

Ever play Leliana's Song?  

 

Mostly fiction. Tug and Sketch were real, and Dorothea certainly did help Leliana escape prison, but for the most part it never happened that way.

 

Leliana's Song is just an embellished retelling of her origin. I like to think that she included elements of the CE Warden's backstory to make it seem like they were always connected.

[andy6915]

Mostly fiction. Tug and Sketch were real, and Dorothea certainly did help Leliana escape prison, but for the most part it never happened that way.
 
Leliana's Song is just an embellished retelling of her origin. I like to think that she included elements of the CE Warden's backstory to make it seem like they were always connected.

More like the first telling of her being caught by Orlesian guards was the embellished version...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Vivienne is like the female version of Littlefinger. One tries their very best to avoid giving her any positions of power.

[N7_Heartfire]

I can't believe we're going over this for like the thousand time, it's been confirmed over and over again that Leliana's story about her past, the one she tells the Warden is the true one. Her DLC story was nothing more than an embellishment of the truth that she told to an audience. Yes, she was captured, tortured then rescued by Dorothea, but it all happened in Orlais. When you meet Marjolaine in Origins she even says this is the first time she's been in Ferelden which directly contradicts her betraying Leliana in Denerim during the DLC.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Let's be frank here. The reason Leliana's Song takes place in Denerim is that they had those assets already and didn't have the budget/inclination to construct an entirely new Orlesian level from scratch.

[Basement Cat]

Let's be frank here. The reason Leliana's Song takes place in Denerim is that they had those assets already and didn't have the budget/inclination to construct an entirely new Orlesian level from scratch.

Which makes it kind of ironic that we only got the market square and prison of Val Royaux in DAI. The two areas that we visit in Leliana's song.

[LadyStoneheart]

In a banter with Cass about the candidate for Divine, Vivienne says something about Leliana playing a pretty Game with a sort of mocking tone and Cass says that Leliana is an intelligent woman with strong convictions and that she will do good as Divine. Vivienne even ridicules Leliana by calling her a fool in a cutscene with the Inquisitor right after the cleric arrives at Skyhold about the next Divine.

 

Apart from that banter, I can't remember Cassandra ever keeping quiet whenever someone says something distasteful about Leliana. But then again hardly anyone spoke ill of her in-game seeing as how nearly everyone is scared of her.

 

I missed that banter (awww Cass  ) but I do remember Vivienne calling Leliana "a well-meaning fool" when I brought her up as a viable candidate in my second playthrough... not that I expected an unbiased comment from her, given their different opinions on mages. Sorry Viv, you tricked me once but this time Leli has 15 points more than you you won't 

 

Vivienne is like the female version of Littlefinger. One tries their very best to avoid giving her any positions of power.

 

Well, I did complain when she became Divine "against my will" and I disagree with her most of the time but I find this comparison unfair. Vivienne is ambitious and definitely had an ulterior motive when she chose to fight on our side against a common enemy, but she still stayed loyal to us when it really counted; it may be on her terms but she still wants to put some order in a world thrown into chaos. Littlefinger is just evil.