15912 réponses à ce sujet

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Hey, Justinia wasn't bad to Leliana.

[Basement Cat]

Hey, Justinia wasn't bad to Leliana.

She used her as a tool to do her dirty work. I'd say that's pretty bad. Especially since Leliana wanted to get away from that life.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

It's not like Leliana was brainwashed or blackmailed.

[Basement Cat]

No, but that does not exonerate Justinia. She found Leliana in a vulnerable state and exploited her feelings of gratitude to make her a private assassin. Justinia herself was all too aware of it: she apologized in the Fade and made plans to release Leliana from service after her death.

 

The fact is Justinia wanted to make changes in the Chantry and she needed someone to take down her more stubborn opponents. Leliana had the skill to do it and gratitude towards her, so she used Leliana to achieve her ends.

 

Sure, we can invoke the needs of the many and Leliana is just one person and all that, but it's not so easy to accept that reason when you have a front row seat to the few being sacrificed.

 

You don't have to resort to force or the threat of force to make someone do something. You can flatter their ego, guilt them into it or exploit their positive feelings for you. That last one is what Justinia did. She knew very well Leliana would never refuse her because of that debt of gratitude, yet she also knew that Leliana wanted to leave the life of a spy and assassin behind. She placed her goals above a person who trusted her. That's pretty cold. She felt bad about it, sure, but she didn't do anything about it until after she died.

 

TLDR: There's more to manipulating people than twisting their arm.

[Serza]

There's psychology included in the courses required to become a teacher in Canada, just like the Czech Republic, I presume?

[Serza]

You, uh, didn't take this the wrong way, right?

 

I mean, you're always spot on, and you seem to know what you're talking about.

 

Plus it's not like I'd think it weird if teachers know about psychology. I want to do it for a living, remember?

[Iakus]

No, but that does not exonerate Justinia. She found Leliana in a vulnerable state and exploited her feelings of gratitude to make her a private assassin. Justinia herself was all too aware of it: she apologized in the Fade and made plans to release Leliana from service after her death.

 

The fact is Justinia wanted to make changes in the Chantry and she needed someone to take down her more stubborn opponents. Leliana had the skill to do it and gratitude towards her, so she used Leliana to achieve her ends.

 

Sure, we can invoke the needs of the many and Leliana is just one person and all that, but it's not so easy to accept that reason when you have a front row seat to the few being sacrificed.

 

You don't have to resort to force or the threat of force to make someone do something. You can flatter their ego, guilt them into it or exploit their positive feelings for you. That last one is what Justinia did. She knew very well Leliana would never refuse her because of that debt of gratitude, yet she also knew that Leliana wanted to leave the life of a spy and assassin behind. She placed her goals above a person who trusted her. That's pretty cold. She felt bad about it, sure, but she didn't do anything about it until after she died.

 

TLDR: There's more to manipulating people than twisting their arm.

From all we've seen, Justinia and Leliana were close friends.  I don't think the Divine coerced or brainwashed Leliana to do anything.  She needed someone with a "particular set of skills" and Leliana volunteered to help her friend.  At worst, Justinia probably should have recognized the signs sooner and dismissed Leliana earlier.  

 

If Justinia was really that cold, she wouldn't have cared that Leliana was burning out, never would have made arrangements for Leliana to be released from her service, and the Fade spirit never would have passed along her apologies.

[Xilizhra]

From all we've seen, Justinia and Leliana were close friends.  I don't think the Divine coerced or brainwashed Leliana to do anything.  She needed someone with a "particular set of skills" and Leliana volunteered to help her friend.  At worst, Justinia probably should have recognized the signs sooner and dismissed Leliana earlier.  

 

If Justinia was really that cold, she wouldn't have cared that Leliana was burning out, never would have made arrangements for Leliana to be released from her service, and the Fade spirit never would have passed along her apologies.

Generally, your employment ends if your employer dies, yes? It was a rather useless and wholly symbolic gesture that would be guaranteed not to inconvenience Justinia in any way. And I'm not sure about that spirit's honesty, given its prior deception; if the statement was honest, it just confirms what Basement Cat was saying, that Justinia failed Leliana.

[Iakus]

Generally, your employment ends if your employer dies, yes? It was a rather useless and wholly symbolic gesture that would be guaranteed not to inconvenience Justinia in any way. And I'm not sure about that spirit's honesty, given its prior deception; if the statement was honest, it just confirms what Basement Cat was saying, that Justinia failed Leliana.

Not necessarily.  Cassandra states that the next Divine might ask her to stay on.  I think Justinia's message was for Leliana to retire should the next Divine ask her to stay on.  That she's played the role of spymaster long enough.

 

Heck, I suspect that if the Conclave had gone forward, Justinia may have dismissed Leliana afterwards.  This message was in case she died before getting the chance (which it turns out, ended up happening).  The Fade spirit clearly regrets "failing" Leliana.  Even if Leliana was staying of her own volition

 

I believe Justinia recognized that she was becoming too dependent on Leliana, and that Leliana was burning out.  Even if Leliana herself couldn't or wouldn't see that.

[Basement Cat]

I believe Justinia recognized that she was becoming too dependent on Leliana, and that Leliana was burning out.  Even if Leliana herself couldn't or wouldn't see that.

Fair point, but the fact that she still asked Leliana to do the job in the first place doesn't sit right with me. Perhaps Justinia felt that she didn't have other options than Leliana since she needed someone she could trust, but still...

 

At best I'd say Justinia made a serious error of judgement in asking Leliana to do this job. At worst she was exploiting Leliana's trust.

 

Oh well, let's agree to disagree on this one.

[Han Shot First]

I agree with Iakus. 

 

Justinia may have not have always been the greatest friend, but it's clear that she did care for Leliana, and her failures at least came about through good intentions. She also seemed to regret the harm she had done.

 

That contrasts sharply with the other woman to have had a negative influence in Leliana's life.

[Basement Cat]

I agree with Iakus. 

 

Justinia may have not have always been the greatest friend, but it's clear that she did care for Leliana, and her failures at least came about through good intentions. She also seemed to regret the harm she had done.

 

That contrasts sharply with the other woman to have had a negative influence in Leliana's life.

The moral of that story is: Leliana always gets hurt by the people she loves, even if they love her back.

 

That's kinda depressing.

[Xilizhra]

The moral of that story is: Leliana always gets hurt by the people she loves, even if they love her back.

 

That's kinda depressing.

Except for the Hero of Ferelden.

[straykat]

Except for the Hero of Ferelden.

 

Well, there are some of those people who still kill her, even while romancing her.

 

Go figure.

 

I'd say players are the weakest elements of these games. Not me though, of course

[Basement Cat]

Except for the Hero of Ferelden.

Debatable. They left her to find a cure for the Calling. Even if it's for a very good reason, Leli is without her lover's support during the worst crisis of her life. I know they could not have predicted it and all that, but the result is the same.

 

Sometimes it's malice, sometimes it's bad luck, but Leli always gets the short end of the stick.

[straykat]

Debatable. They left her to find a cure for the Calling. Even if it's for a very good reason, Leli is without her lover's support during the worst crisis of her life. I know they could not have predicted it and all that, but the result is the same.

 

Sometimes it's malice, sometimes it's bad luck, but Leli always gets the short end of the stick.

 

That's why she's my Divine.

 

She's hooked up with the Maker now

[Xilizhra]

Debatable. They left her to find a cure for the Calling. Even if it's for a very good reason, Leli is without her lover's support during the worst crisis of her life. I know they could not have predicted it and all that, but the result is the same.

 

Sometimes it's malice, sometimes it's bad luck, but Leli always gets the short end of the stick.

Well, that can finally be fixed by the end, when the Hero returns.

[Wulfram]

That's why she's my Divine.
 
She's hooked up with the Maker now

Well, good. Its not like the Maker lets his girlfriends get burnt alive or anything...

[straykat]

Well, good. Its not like the Maker lets his girlfriends get burnt alive or anything...

 

I wonder if that will ever be explained.

[Xilizhra]

I wonder if that will ever be explained.

Well, the Maker doesn't exist.

[Basement Cat]

I wonder if that will ever be explained.

Unlikely. Gaider said they wouldn't confirm or deny the existence of the Maker, so any major event linked to him will probably remain a mystery as well.

[vertigomez]

I wonder if that will ever be explained.

I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be Jesus all over again. So...

[Basement Cat]

I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be Jesus all over again. So...

That's what I thought too. 

 

What's up with the name change?

[straykat]

Well, Jesus.. just to get into it a little.. apparently had a preset mission for all of that. He set out to do it from the beginning. There's nothing in Andraste's story like that. She just fought a slave rebellion. It's more akin to Joan of Arc's story.. more tragic and unexpected.

[Evan_the_mechanic]

I am, personally annoyed by h5et, though not as much as Solas, hes one oponinated fucker

Isn't she an npc ? Since shes war room only? I'm super
new to this game, though, just remade my guy because quniari are damned cool, despite the you'd hate them in 2! Comments I get, gotta love very oponinated girlfriends, lol
Though what was with that dragon age musical?

I get rescued from waliking in snow to hear a musical, made me dislike leliana more, oh ****, new character means musical again, haha and I can't skip it!

Anyhow, great game, good job to whomever made this, though I'd BUY a haiir pack if you'd put one out, that's my only ugh yuck so far, and the musical, lol

Seriously, great ****** game!