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[TheKomandorShepard]

Because I prefer justice to revenge.

Being caught committing a crime and facing punishment for it is fine. Being framed for a crime you didn't commit by your lover is not just, especially when the punishment is death.

It doesn't matter how many times you screw over people or what horrible things you've done, that doesn't make it right for horrible things to happen to you.

To use a real world example (and I hope this doesn't make anyone uncomfortable) some people believe that criminals who sexually assault or murder children should be abused and raped in prison. I believe that the criminal justice system should provide for the safety and well-being of everyone and that no prisoner should fear any sort of abuse. A society is judged on how it treats those it sees as monstrous, not people who are 'worthy' of good treatment.

It is justice or at least can be, it isn't revenge ... there is no person that seeks revenge and punish her for what they did to that person simple her actions back to her... 

 

Lets call it karma.

 

 

But it does matter, you can't take all the context out of a situation and focus on one finite point of a situation, which you are so fond of doing. The world is not so black or white, especially in the setting of the orlesian game. 

 

And whats this nonsense of her refusing to learn her lesson? She never went back to the game after the betrayal, unless you're talking about her work for the divine, which from what we've seen in the books is mostly talking to people, attending parties in her name and killing mostly in self defense.

It is like you deciding take part in the war and don't expect that you can be killed or lost limb pretty much if you are smart well not even smart you have average intelligence you will know that can happen.

 

If you take part in orlesian game and you are around who don't have any qualms from betrayal and killing you pretty much if you have at least some brain that you can't trust them... it isn't even moral point in that matter is is pretty much basic logic and common sense...

 

On other hand we have also her hypocrisy as i said she cry that someone is monster because well betrayed her what she was doing herself well sure we can't exactly judge her because who she was in the past right? wrong , because in game she herself tells you don't have problem with betraying peoples if that serves her purpose despite all that bi*** about how horrible was what Marjoliane did to her.

 

Just please don't even try to tell me how not expecting that manipulative bi*** will stab you in the back have sense. 

 

 

And eye for an eye is not justice.

Leliana saw the fault in her behaviour and tried to change, to become devoted and as such she deserves pity no matter her wrongs in the past.

 

Well it is in fact but also it could be also revenge of course justice isn't universal and can't mean for peoples many things.

As i said i would call that karma.

 

Nope she didn't she still tells you that what her mentor did to her is fine as long she is one who doing that to other not others to her well this is how it looked in dao.

[Lenimph]

 

If you take part in orlesian game and you are around who don't have any qualms from betrayal and killing you pretty much if you have at least some brain that you can't trust them... it isn't even moral point in that matter is is pretty much basic logic and common sense...

 

On other hand we have also her hypocrisy as i said she cry that someone is monster because well betrayed her what she was doing herself well sure we can't exactly judge her because who she was in the past right? wrong , because in game she herself tells you don't have problem with betraying peoples if that serves her purpose despite all that bi*** about how horrible was what Marjoliane did to her.

 

Just please don't even try to tell me how not expecting that manipulative bi*** will stab you in the back have sense. 

 

 

Marjolaine went beyond the bounds of the game though. Leliana states this... Going to keep ignoring that and any other bit of evidence that might show that Leliana was somewhat of a victim, because she was? She was not doing to other people what Marjolaine did to her.

 

Leliana was not literally stabbing people after she slept with them, as evidenced by her dialogue in DA:O her job as a bard, her seduction was a means to avoid violence. Sure she collected evidence for nobles, but the physical violence that might have effected her victims were of indirect causes and removed from her.  If bards were as bad as Marjolaine was at that night why would anyone tolerate them?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Marjolaine went beyond the bounds of the game though. Leliana states this... Going to keep ignoring that and any other bit of evidence that might show that Leliana was somewhat of a victim, because she was? She was not doing to other people what Marjolaine did to her.

 

Leliana was not literally stabbing people after she slept with them, as evidenced by her dialogue in DA:O her job as a bard, her seduction was a means to avoid violence. Sure she collected evidence for nobles, but the physical violence that might have effected her victims were of indirect causes and removed from her.  If bards were as bad as Marjolaine was at that night why would anyone tolerate them?

 

Game is based on betrayal and manipulation... so yeah that manipulative bi*** that lives from betraying others im sure that orlesian game will stop her because... well...

 

Yep she was manipulated peoples who were in love with her then she betrayed and possible in some cases that she killed them she tells you that...

 

She was sometimes yes sometimes not she was using peoples to get what she wanted and then as i said betrayed what she did to her...

 

And why anyone would tolerate murderous bard anyway?  Yeah... she was better bard than leliana ever was...

[Lenimph]

Game is based on betrayal and manipulation... so yeah that manipulative bi*** that lives from betraying others im sure that orlesian game will stop her because... well...

Because it was her line of employment. Her committing the act of treason was a big deal. She was risking her whole career and life (and Leliana's) as a bard. It was a very heavy gamble not to be taken lightly. 

 

Not that I said that the game would stop Marjolaine, but I only wanted to show the possibility that Leliana grew to love Marjolaine as someone who played the rules of the game well, not as someone who was so willing to riskfully break them for a payoff that probably wasn't worth it. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Because it was her line of employment. Her committing the act of treason was a big deal. She was risking her whole career and life (and Leliana's) as a bard. It was a very heavy gamble not to be taken lightly. 

 

Not that I said that the game would stop Marjolaine, but I only wanted to show the possibility that Leliana grew to love Marjolaine as someone who played the rules of the game well, not as someone who was so willing to riskfully break them for a payoff that probably wasn't worth it. 

You explained my why she wouldn't betray her country (which is false she still did) not why she wouldn't betray leliana...

 

Bard aren't patriots it is clear they betray for money and own convenience and are ruthless so well she betrayed own country there is no doubt and she framed leliana there is no suprise in there .She betrayed her for money and own convenience which pretty much is way bards are living... there is no suprise there... leliana was imple naive and stupid...

 

Even point of the game is about betraying and manipulation pretty much if you join it you have to expect that you can be betrayed and by doing that you accept that.

[Lenimph]

I never tried to argue why she wouldn't betray Leliana, only showed that she didn't immediatly plan to or necessarily want to.

 

I never called Marjolaine a patriot (though Leliana is and was also a bard) but only argued it is stupid to betray the people who give you your most constant stream of money flow that keep you employed. 

 

I think you are reading more into my words then are stated.

[Han Shot First]

..

 

And why anyone would tolerate murderous bard anyway?  Yeah... she was better bard than leliana ever was...

 

Leliana never committed treason, so that automatically makes her a better bard than Marjolaine.

 

Treason isn't part of the Grand Game. The Grand Game is a tolerated power struggle within Orlais where nobles jockey and scheme for power, influence, wealth, or glory. Marjolaine wasn't selling one Orlesian noble's secrets to another, she was selling state secrets to a rival power.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I never tried to argue why she wouldn't betray Leliana, only showed that she didn't immediatly plan to or necessarily want to.

 

I never called Marjolaine a patriot (tho Leliana is and was also a bard) but only it is stupid to betray the people who give you your most constant stream of money flow that keep you employed. 

 

I think there's a language barrier here and you are reading more into my words then are stated.

Which still doesn't change that it wasn't about when or why she betrayed leliana only that she did and could easily and it was something that you should expect from someone that life is about treason and being ruthless.

 

As leliana said she learned her it isn't worth be loyal to single country or person (what makes it only more obvious) pretty much it was convenient and beneficial to throw blame on leliana (and that is what bard are doing).

 

Discussion started because you said it wasn't leliana fault for trusting and starting relationship with bard what i said was stupid and obvious because her mentor did what being bard is about and game as well.

 

 

 

Leliana never committed treason, so that automatically makes her a better bard than Marjolaine.

 

Treason isn't part of the Grand Game. The Grand Game is a tolerated power struggle within Orlais where nobles jockey and scheme for power, influence, wealth, or glory. Marjolaine wasn't selling one Orlesian noble's secrets to another, she was selling state secrets to a rival power.

 

LoL being bard isn't about being loyal to the country or person bards (hell even leliana tolds you that oh irony) are mix of assassins with spies officially they are nothing more than outlaws and their job is illegal but as leliana said authorities turning a blind eye because of corruption. It is like saying that being loyal makes you better thief.Being bard in itself is about manipulation and betrayal.Pretty much there is good reason why lel was forced to leave and mar was still doing her job in orlais...

[Han Shot First]

 

LoL being bard isn't about being loyal to the country or person bards are mix of assassins with spies officially they are nothing more than outlaws and their job is illegal but as leliana said authorities turning a blind eye because of corruption. It is like saying that being loyal makes you better thief.Being bard in itself is about manipulation and betrayal.

 

Bards are expected to be loyal to Orlais. Otherwise Leliana wouldn't have been shocked and horrified by Marjolaine's turn.

 

Also you're incorrect about bards being outlaws in Orlais. They aren't. They operate openly and are a part of Orlesian culture, just like the Grand Game. That wouldn't be the case if bards routinely betrayed the nation. 

[thats1evildude]

It's not about loyalty to one's nation. It's about what will be tolerated by the authorities. It's one thing to commit the odd theft or assassination; that's just the Game. But selling state secrets to foreign powers? Actively undermining the Orlesian government? The Crown simply cannot look the other way. A bard who commits treason has gone too far.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Bards are expected to be loyal to Orlais. Otherwise Leliana wouldn't have been shocked and horrified by Marjolaine's turn.

 

Also you're incorrect about bards being outlaws in Orlais. They aren't. They operate openly and are a part of Orlesian culture, just like the Grand Game. That wouldn't be the case if bards routinely betrayed the nation. 

Nope she was shocked because they could kill her for that (well they would do that to every person) .

Eee they are outlaws they break the law... problem is corruption so as leliana said that authorities turn a blind eye on that...

 

here have where she says that it is normal for bard to do so and there is also about being loyal...

 

 

It's not about loyalty to one's nation. It's about what will be tolerated by the authorities. It's one thing to commit the odd theft or assassination; that's just the Game. But selling state secrets to foreign powers? Actively undermining the Orlesian government? The Crown simply cannot look the other way. A bard who commits treason has gone too far.

 

eee you know that it isn't about being bard? This is something that country won't accept and it isn't only toward bard but everyone so no being bard isn't about being loyal to the country but about manipulation and betrayal... as link show that bards are doing that...

[thats1evildude]

In practice, most covert spy work is illegal on some level. But they're still not "outlaws," Komandor. Outlaws are pursued and tried for their crimes by the authorities.

 

Orlesian bards practice their trade quite openly. The Empress even hosts a bard at a ball near the beginning of The Masked Empire, and she was (later) guilty of blackmail, kidnapping and attempted murder, but no one gives a ****.

[TheKomandorShepard]

In practice, most covert spy work is illegal on some level, yeah. But they're still not "outlaws," Komandor. Outlaws are pursued and tried for their crimes by the authorities. Orlesian bards practice their trade quite openly.

 

In The Masked Empire, Gaspard employs a woman who everyone knows is a bard, but she is still allowed to enter the Royal Palace and perform music. She's guilty of blackmail, kidnapping and attempted murder, but no one gives a ****.

Well perhaps i used bad word (sorry but english isn't my native language) point was that their job is illegal and is only accepted because of corruption officially they are to entertain guests that what i mean.

[Lenimph]

 

 

Discussion started because you said it wasn't leliana fault for trusting and starting relationship with bard what i said was stupid and obvious because her mentor did what being bard is about and game as well.

 

 I never said it wasn't Leliana's fault, I just said it was obtuse to make assumptions about how stupid of a choice it was when the player doesn't know the whole story. We don't even know how she met Marjolaine, or why she became a bard exactly, she might not even have much of a choice.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 I never said it wasn't Leliana's fault, I just said it was obtuse to make assumptions about how stupid of a choice it was when the player doesn't know the whole story. We don't know how she met Marjolaine, or why she became a bard exactly.

And why it is relevant? As i said and what about discussion our was trust in peoples like mar is stupid decision and we saw consequences of that.

[thats1evildude]

It's never stated outright, but based on a comment from Marjolaine, I think Leliana was living on the street when she was taken in by Marjolaine. Lady Cecile had either died or perhaps tired of her, and she had no other family to look after her.

 

Incidentally, Leliana's comment on Marjolaine's treason from LS is this:

 

"The Game is one thing. We go back and forth between nobles and the authorities turn a blind eye. It is ... amusement. But these papers! If the seals were Orlesian military, then bringing them to Ferelden is treason. Marjolaine, there is no blind eye for treason! They'll hang you in the street!"

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's never stated outright, but based on a comment from Marjolaine, I think Leliana was living on the street when she was taken in by Marjolaine. Lady Cecille had either died or perhaps tired of her, and she had no other family.

 

Incidentally, Leliana's comment on Marjolaine's treason from LS is this:

 

"The Game is one thing. We go back and forth between nobles and the authorities turn a blind eye. It is ... amusement. But these papers! If the seals were Orlesian military, then bringing them to Ferelden is treason. Marjolaine, there is no blind eye for treason! They'll hang you in the street!"

 

What comment from marjolaine do you mean?

 

It natural thing that country will kill you for that no matter who you are as leliana said in dao it isn't nothing special for bard doing that and being loyal isn't bard thing.On other side im not sure how accurate LS is well it didn't seem fit leliana story in dao and in the beginning it looks like story that leliana tells (something like varric) same for ending.

[thats1evildude]

What comment from marjolaine do you mean?

 

Here at 5:16:

 

 

Incidentally, Leliana does mention knowing other bards who were executed for treason.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Here at 5:16:

Incidentally, Leliana does mention knowing other bards who were executed for treason.

Oh i thought you were talking about comment that implies that she has taken her fom the street.

 

Well to be honest everyone is executed for treason as i said not only punishment for bard it is rather obvious.

[Lenimph]

It's never stated outright, but based on a comment from Marjolaine, I think Leliana was living on the street when she was taken in by Marjolaine. Lady Cecile had either died or perhaps tired of her, and she had no other family to look after her.

 

 

I suspect as much. Lady Cecile was already old when she took in Leliana. I don't think that she would have tired of her after basically raising her as her own so I believe after her death she had lost her place and was found by Marjolaine. 

 

OOOO Maybe Leliana will tell us in DA:I

[Eveangaline]

I wonder what exactly her spying faction adds to the inquisition in gameplay. Do you find out more about what resources are available in the lands or in certain keeps? Maybe more info about what kind of enemies are nearbye and their weaknesses?

[thats1evildude]

Oh i thought you were talking about comment that implies that she has taken her fom the street.

Oh, it's in LS, during the conversation Leliana and Marjolaine have about the papers. You have to choose a certain dialogue option to hear it. I don't have the energy to look it up right now.

 

OOOO Maybe Leliana will tell us in DA:I

 

Maybe so!

[TheKomandorShepard]

I wonder what exactly her spying faction adds to the inquisition in gameplay. Do you find out more about what resources are available in the lands or in certain keeps? Maybe more info about what kind of enemies are nearbye and their weaknesses?

Well you can send her to the redcliff to spy on insane mages but she is captured by them... yeah left hand of divine and spymaster my a**.

[thats1evildude]

Eh, sneaking into palaces is one thing. it's pretty hard to spy on demons who can read your thoughts.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Eh, sneaking into palaces is one thing. it's pretty hard to spy on demons who can read your thoughts.

Well they said (or at least articles claim they said) that if you send someone else the result will be different (and if it is spy mission) i guess you will be able send only spy.