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[Lenimph]

 

 

On topic, I wonder if Morrigan and Leliana will meet this time around? I wonder how that reunion would go.

"You like fancy Orlesian dresses, don't you Morrigan?"

 

[Han Shot First]

With the one person who wrote about the demo, it sounds like we go to Redcliffe because Leliana hasn't reported back and while in the Keep we find her prisoner and free her. After that we go face Alexius. 

 

If it is the same article I read it sounded like it was optional whether or not to send her in to infiltrate Redcliffe ahead of time.

[MisterJB]

You don't think the appalling behaviour of many templars, the terrible actions of Lambert, and the obstinate and incredible short-sightedness or even blindness of the mages who voted to break from the Circle might all contribute to a greater responsibility for the rebellion than the actions of the one person in power who actually wants to help mages?

 

No, I believe they all bear some responsability but Justinia's actions were the worst. Lambert made a mistake in incarcerating the leaders of the mages but had Justinia let things be, war would have been averted. There may have been some executions, some Tranquilities but war would have been averted.

And even if a Circle or two rebelled once news of their First Enchanter had arrived, they would have been isolated from each other and fallen easily to Annulment.

Instead, we have this. So, I don't like her decisions and I don't trust her and if she's alive, I'm worried this will create some friction with Leliana.
 

[The Elder King]

No, I believe they all bear some responsability but Justinia's actions were the worst. Lambert made a mistake in incarcerating the leaders of the mages but had Justinia let things be, war would have been averted. There may have been some executions, some Tranquilities but war would have been averted.
And even if a Circle or two rebelled once news of their First Enchanter had arrived, they would have been isolated from each other and fallen easily to Annulment.
Instead, we have this. So, I don't like her decisions and I don't trust her and if she's alive, I'm worried this will create some friction with Leliana.

Spoiler

I don't think there are high chances of Justinia being alive, unless she faked her death in the prologue and she's in truth the Big Bad.

[adorkable-panda]

"You like fancy Orlesian dresses, don't you Morrigan?"

 

What actually makes me so happy is that Morrigan's new outfit literally defines the outfit that Leliana planned to "buy" for her in DAO Banter so I spazzed when I saw it. 

[Mistic]

No, I believe they all bear some responsability but Justinia's actions were the worst. Lambert made a mistake in incarcerating the leaders of the mages but had Justinia let things be, war would have been averted. There may have been some executions, some Tranquilities but war would have been averted.

And even if a Circle or two rebelled once news of their First Enchanter had arrived, they would have been isolated from each other and fallen easily to Annulment.

Instead, we have this. So, I don't like her decisions and I don't trust her and if she's alive, I'm worried this will create some friction with Leliana.

 

But that's assuming that new Annulments would be accepted. Meredith's case was an exception; the order for that must come from the Chantry higher-ups, not the Knight-Commanders. If you are saying that more Annulments should be accepted to keep Lambert and the Templars happy, then there's no reason to keep the military branch of the Chantry working, since they would be clearly out of control.

 

The Annulment was created to put down Circles out of control. What is there to put down Templars and Seekers out of control? TME said it: the Orlesians. Neither Celene nor Gaspard were keen on having rogue armies, mages or templars. Both of them suggested the same course of action, Celene apprehensively and Gaspard enthusiastically, and the Divine knew it. So in your scenario, either the Divine would bow to the military dictatorship of the Seekers and Templars, or the Orlesians would have killed them all.

 

(Nevertheless, I realize that there's a Machiavellian solution to minimize casualties even in that situation: let Seekers and Templars kill the problematic mages, then let the Orlesians kill the problematic Seekers and Templars. Of course, there's the risk of the Empire taking control of the Chantry... although some would say there wouldn't be too much of a difference).

 

Spoiler

I don't think there are high chances of Justinia being alive, unless she faked her death in the prologue and she's in truth the Big Bad.

 

That's an intriguing theory and it could end many discussions right away. Of course, it would also break Leliana's heart.

[themikefest]

I wonder if Leliana or Cullen would remember seeing each other in the mage tower in Fereldon just before facing Uldred?

[Reznore57]

I wonder if Leliana or Cullen would remember seeing each other in the mage tower in Fereldon just before facing Uldred?

 

Cullen was in a shock , so I don't think he will remember the details.

Leliana it's possible...but I think Cassandra , Cullen , Leliana and Scribbles all met before the game even start.

Possible they were recruited to be part of the Inquisition the Divine wanted.

And I suppose Cassandra and Leliana went to see Cullen after the event at Kirkwall , I guess he was in charge of the Chantry and the templars after everyone died.

[Maria Caliban]

"Aren't you that Templar who was tortured by demons and became unhinged? I'd heard a rumor you'd massacred the mages in the Ferelden Circle."

"I heard a rumor that the Warden killed you."

"Well... you know what they say about rumor."

"Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear."

[Lenimph]

What actually makes me so happy is that Morrigan's new outfit literally defines the outfit that Leliana planned to "buy" for her in DAO Banter so I spazzed when I saw it.

Kind of but not really. Leliana suggested red velvet not purple. Morrigan did listen to the whole bit about not hiding her "features" however.

Leliana so wanted to tap that.

[themikefest]

This gave me a smile when I saw it

 

Spoiler

    

[Aimi]

two lovers, forbidden from one another
a war divides their people
and a mountain divides them apart
built a path to be together

...yeah, I forget the next coupla lines, but then it goes:

SECRET TUNNELLLLLLL, SECRET TUNNELLLLLLL
THROUGH THE MOUNTAIN
SECRET, SECRET, SECRET, SECRET TUNNELLLLLLL, yeah

[Maria Caliban]

The outfits have improved so much since the DA:O days.

Oh right, I found another song for our darker and not-so-happy Leliana.

[Lenimph]

Hmm this is what comes to mind for me in terms of songs... 

[Alan Rickman]

I haven't thought about it at all whether or not this could actually fit Leliana, I'm just looking for an excuse to post this video:

 

 

 

[LobselVith8]

The Divine never ordered a slaughter of the elves

 

Leliana does make reference to the fact that she's fought alongside elves, and wouldn't want to see them hurt (during this conversation), so I don't see how you're suggesting she didn't know it would end in bloodshed. Celene also knew what the Divine meant.

 

No, all she did was order Celene to end the revolt. Anything after that falls on Celene 

 

Please read the book

 

Which meant bloodshed, something Leliana clearly knew was the case given her dialogue.

[TheLittleBird]

The only song that, for me, fits Leliana is Elton John's Tiny Dancer , even though the song's primary source of inspiration (Californian women) doesn't really fit her all that much.

 

[Lenimph]

Leliana does make reference to the fact that she's fought alongside elves, and wouldn't want to see them hurt (during this conversation), so I don't see how you're suggesting she didn't know it would end in bloodshed. Celene also knew what the Divine meant.
 
 
Which meant bloodshed, something Leliana clearly knew was the case given her dialogue.

Leliana only asked the Divine's question being whether the Elven situation would be under control. The Divine did not order Celene to do anything, only asked a question because she did not want to make her own actions without that being taken care of first. When Celene asks Leliana what the Divine thinks of the elves she replies that the Divine doesn't think much of theater (that is currently mocking Celene for being an elf lover) and that, "The elves are the children of the Maker as we are and deserve his grace." That doesn't sound like slaughter them all... if anything its reassurance that she shouldnt have let it go to her head like she did.
 
Bloodshed is often the action taken in those kind of situations and Leliana knowing this only said she did not want to see that happen.

[Divine Justinia V]

Yeah, I don't recall Leliana or the Divine having a part in Halamshiral. The Divine needed everything to be under control with the current Mage/Templar situation. How Celene made that judgement was 800000% her call.

[LobselVith8]

Leliana only asked the Divine's question whether the Elven situation would be under control. The Divine did not order Celene to do anything, only asked a question because she did not want to make her own actions without that being taken care of first.

 

Are you sincerely arguing that Leliana didn't know what would ensue when she delivered this message? Leliana isn't stupid; she's a bard. She's the Divine's representative, and has been for some time. She knew exactly what message she was delivering to the Empress, and Celene even comments on it on page 113 when she internally thinks about how she knew how the conversation would go.

 

Leliana works for Divine Justinia V, someone who, as Celene pointed out, won't say that the elves are the Children of the Maker who are just as deserving of his grace. In fact, when Celene verbally says this, Leliana looks away. Leliana was uncomfortable in the scene with Celene when she delivered this message, admittedly, but she voluntarily served Justinia of her own free will. She even admits, "I have... been comrade-in-arms with elves. I would not see them harmed. But you did not ask for her support in that matter."

 

Leliana told Celene that the Divine would intervene in the mage issue if Celene handled the elves. Leliana said: "You asked for her help calming the templars and the mages"

 

What follows when Celene asked, "Will she give that support?" is response that Justinia asked Leliana to deliver:

 

Leliana let out a breath. "She will", she said, nodding slowly, "but in return, she needs to know that this matter with the elves is under control."

 

Followed by a paragraph talking about Celene's heart breaking, and how she had "nown within moments how the conversation would go". Considering how Leliana was referencing elves being hurt and her visible discomfort, it's clear that she knew bloodshed would ensue. Celene was the one who killed all those elves, but Leliana most certainly played a role in the eventual burning of Halamshiral.

 

Xil's point is valid - an elven Inquisitor might take serious issue with the part she played in their deaths.

[Divine Justinia V]

She even admits, "I have... been comrade-in-arms with elves. I would not see them harmed. But you did not ask for her support in that matter."

 

You have to look at both parts though, how much pull do you think the Divine has now? Celene did only ask for help in the Mage/Templar war, nothing more. There's only so much she can do when she's dealing with holy war. How Celene handles HER civil issues is up to her, purely. No one else has part in that. Celene is Empress, not the Divine.

[Mistic]

You have to look at both parts though, how much pull do you think the Divine has now? Celene did only ask for help in the Mage/Templar war, nothing more. There's only so much she can do when she's dealing with holy war. How Celene handles HER civil issues is up to her, purely. No one else has part in that. Celene is Empress, not the Divine.

 

I agree with you, but then why did the Divine care about putting down the elven rebellion in the first place?

 

Ironically, it would have been for the best if the other solution had been taken: forget about the Mage-Templar war, ask the Divine for help with the elves. That would have made Gaspard's trap meaningless, so the civil war would have been posponed, at least for some time. The Divine's help in the Mage-Templar problem led to disaster: she wasn't able to tell his message, there was an assassination attempt and Lambert was put in charge of the White Spire to investigate. And we know how it ended,

[TheLittleBird]

I agree with you, but then why did the Divine care about putting down the elven rebellion in the first place?

 

Ironically, it would have been for the best if the other solution had been taken: forget about the Mage-Templar war, ask the Divine for help with the elves. That would have made Gaspard's trap meaningless, so the civil war would have been posponed, at least for some time. The Divine's help in the Mage-Templar problem led to disaster: she wasn't able to tell his message, there was an assassination attempt and Lambert was put in charge of the White Spire to investigate. And we know how it ended,

 

In hindsight.

If you look at it from the perspective of the Divine and Celene before Asunder and TME, respectively, that doesn't seem like such a good plan.

[LobselVith8]

You have to look at both parts though, how much pull do you think the Divine has now? Celene did only ask for help in the Mage/Templar war, nothing more. There's only so much she can do when she's dealing with holy war. How Celene handles HER civil issues is up to her, purely. No one else has part in that. Celene is Empress, not the Divine.

 

She's the head of the most dominant religious organization in Thedas. You and I are going to have to disagree on how this could have been handled by the Divine and her Left Hand.

 

Please don't get me wrong. I don't hate Leliana. I really liked her in Origins and Asunder, my Warden killed Marjolaine for her, but I also can't deny that "Faith" and "The Masked Empire" did bother me, mainly due to the actions that she took at the behest of Divine Justinia V. With the Inquisition not beholden to the Andrastian Chantry, that's most likely not going to be an issue anymore. 

 

That's beside the point, however. All I'm saying is that Xil does have a point about an elven protagonist being able to take issue with Leliana if this was addressed, considering the loss of life that resulted. It's also highly possible this won't be.

[Divine Justinia V]

I agree with you, but then why did the Divine care about putting down the elven rebellion in the first place?

 

More than likely because there's too much chaos happening as it is? Justinia can't show her support for someone or handle something if the country is in ruins from a civil war. There's a holy war happening, why wouldn't the Divine care about stopping a civil war?