523 réponses à ce sujet

[Adhin]

Heh yeah, that was more awkwardness in DAO as a whole. It's one reason I like that companions had there own unique specialization that you didn't select for them, and hope that continues in DAI personally. Being able to make all your mages bloodmages with out a second thought in DAO... super weird ****. I think it's also one reason some people seem to think it was more wide spread on the companion side. I think Merrell is literally the only one who was a blood mage.

[Shadow Fox]

That's exactly what I was talking about.

 

Blood Magic may or may not come from demons (demons don't have actual blood themselves, did this magic really originated with them?),

certainly that's what the chantry wants us to believe, but currently you are able to learn it from a book and perhaps even an accidental injury.

 

But all that aside, no matter its origins or the fact that parts of it are immoral, you can still use it for good.

There is nothing evil about using some of your own blood to power or overpower spells when needed. It's just another tool.

Fel Magic in WOW can also be used for good. Doesn't stop it from being corruptive evil magic.

[Fenwulf]

Seriously, the drive to defend Blood Magic as something that is either neutral or "a tool that can be used for good" in this thread is incredible.  Lets just be clear on one thing, Blood Magic, and those that desire it, is about one thing: raw power.  And the old adage still stands: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."  Being able to augment a spell by harnessing the raw power of life itself is indeed addictive, as the feeling of that surge of power flowing through someone that until that point has always felt helpless would be the next thing to pure ambrosia.  The knowledge of how to use Blood Magic comes from the Forbidden Ones, four demons of unimaginable power.  And who here could possibly think that a demon would share such knowledge if they thought it would do anything other than sow harm and chaos?

 

All that aside, the appearance of Blood Magic available to characters in game via other means that a demon has more to do with game mechanics than lore, and you guys know that.  You just want to have it so you are grasping at straws.  Lore wise, true Blood Magic teachings come from demons or from another Blood Mage.  Period.  It was always meant to be an "evil" form of magic that used the blood of others to power spells.  It was meant to show how magic can be abused, just like the Force in Star Wars.  Just because the Force can be used for good, does not mean using it to kill is also good.  It's not.  They were not able to adequately portray this in the first 2 DA games, so they got rid of it as a spec for the Inquisitor.  Does this mean they will take it out for good from PC control?  I doubt it, as there will always be people that want to play evil characters or players that are willing to use the ends to justify the means.  It more than likely will be one or two abilities like out of Wardens' Keep.  But that's just my theory on that.

[zambingo]

If you read Vengeance's power tree descriptions in DA2 it's hard to argue it isn't a demonic based Blood Magic thing. Sure there isn't any controlling of other people going on, and yes Justice was a spirit but...

This is reinforced in game by how Flemeth talks to Anders B T W. Anders tries to spin it but Flemeth is all like, "Uh huh, you keep telling yourself that."

[LobselVith8]

Seriously, the drive to defend Blood Magic as something that is either neutral or "a tool that can be used for good" in this thread is incredible.  Lets just be clear on one thing, Blood Magic, and those that desire it, is about one thing: raw power.  And the old adage still stands: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."  Being able to augment a spell by harnessing the raw power of life itself is indeed addictive, as the feeling of that surge of power flowing through someone that until that point has always felt helpless would be the next thing to pure ambrosia.  The knowledge of how to use Blood Magic comes from the Forbidden Ones, four demons of unimaginable power.  And who here could possibly think that a demon would share such knowledge if they thought it would do anything other than sow harm and chaos?

 

I don't see why you view it as incredible, since we have multiple examples of mages who use it for purposes that aren't malevolent. Grey Warden mages have used it to fight the darkspawn, arguably the greatest threat to sentient life on Thedas. According to the developers, the Joining and phylacteries are forms of blood magic. Finn used it to locate of the remaining Eluvians. Merrill used blood magic to cleanse a shard, and never abused her magical abilities for the sake of "raw power" for over several years, instead using them to destroy a barrier and using it to discern if Kerran was still possessed or not.

 

Also, we have multiple (and contradicting) claims about the inception of blood magic. No one knows it's origin with any certainty. Let's not pretend as though the other versions don't exist.

 

All that aside, the appearance of Blood Magic available to characters in game via other means that a demon has more to do with game mechanics than lore, and you guys know that.  You just want to have it so you are grasping at straws.  Lore wise, true Blood Magic teachings come from demons or from another Blood Mage.  Period.  It was always meant to be an "evil" form of magic that used the blood of others to power spells.  It was meant to show how magic can be abused, just like the Force in Star Wars.  Just because the Force can be used for good, does not mean using it to kill is also good.  It's not.  They were not able to adequately portray this in the first 2 DA games, so they got rid of it as a spec for the Inquisitor.  Does this mean they will take it out for good from PC control?  I doubt it, as there will always be people that want to play evil characters or players that are willing to use the ends to justify the means.  It more than likely will be one or two abilities like out of Wardens' Keep.  But that's just my theory on that.

 

Addressing facts isn't "grasping at straws". It's also disingenuous of you to try to invalidate other sources for learning blood magic when even WoT addresses that it's taught by other mages, not restricted as knowledge that can only be learned from a spirit.

[In Exile]

I don't see why you view it as incredible, since we have multiple examples of mages who use it for purposes that aren't malevolent. Grey Warden mages have used it to fight the darkspawn, arguably the greatest threat to sentient life on Thedas. According to the developers, the Joining and phylacteries are forms of blood magic. Finn used it to locate of the remaining Eluvians. Merrill used blood magic to cleanse a shard, and never abused her magical abilities for the sake of "raw power" for over several years, instead using them to destroy a barrier and using it to discern if Kerran was still possessed or not.

 

Let me preface this by saying that, generally, I do believe that a blanket condemnation of blood magic is wrong, because it's like condemning "armies". It's such a broad and open-ended concept that it captures a lot of different ideas.

 

In your posts we have three examples of blood magic here: (i) what Merrill did, which wasn't actually to use BM to cleanse the shard but to use BM to power the spell to cleanse the shard (which is exactly what Jowan does with Isolde's life in DA:O); (ii) what the Circles do, which is use blood to locate the person it comes from (which Finn's spell falls in); and (iii) what the GWs do, which is some form of blood manipulation magic that mutates the taint so that some people - the ones not automatically poisoned - will only be tainted very, very slowly. There's also the mind control example. 

 

There's a lot that goes into each being justified. The tracking function is simple - the actual harm to the person (if you're tracking them) - is relatively minimal once you put aside consent and privacy issues (which, as an aside, the Circle totally violates as it bleeds its apprentices). The GWs blood manipulation spell is obviously justified because of the Blight, and it's hard to say that it's more dangerous than any other spell. 

 

The first class, the spell empowering, that's a dangerous line, because it uses people's lives (essentially). It's a fine line. It's one thing when you talk about consent, but the consent violating aspect is what makes it so dangerous - a mage could just violate the privacy, physical integrity, etc. of a person for power. That's not enough, IMO, to make this evil (because it's not inherently evil - it's about how it's used), but it's certain prone to abuse and has to be seen in that light.

 

The last thing is mind control. That's something inherently wrong. It violates the personal, mental integrity of a person. That's it's very reason for existence. At this point we get into the debate of whether killing can be wrong and justified, and this is where we get into a really meta moral debate.

 

But basically blood magic's moral status comes down to a single question: do you believe that things can be wrong even if there is a limited range of circumstances where, because of the alternative, they might be a justified choice?  

[Adhin]

That and casting basic spells with magic for 'save someones life' is... I mean that's basically a doctor sewing up a wound and then stabbing him self in the process cause he feels the need for self sacrifice. I mean c'mon, you could sew up the wound with out stabbing your self. You can cast a healing spell with out nulling the effects of healing on your self 'and' consuming your own blood. The only time Blood Magic is 'required' to 'help' someone is when the spells to big for a single person to do and would otherwise require lyrium that isn't currently on hand and in that your going to be sacrificing lives to help save someone. In which case Lyrium is a WAY better solution but if its not available your just left with a shitty question of who gets to die today.

 

Also if you read the 'mind control' stuff its not mind control. It's worse then that, its body control (via blood). The person being controlled is still them selves and aware of whats going on as their body forcibly moves against their will... and then they die, or explode. Either way super horrible.

 

In the end I think the only time blood magic is a grey area is when you could of done it in another manner but you just didn't have the lyrium on hand, and hopefully it only requires all your mana and some of your blood. Cause otherwise someones dying for whatever crap your trying to do.

[zambingo]

If Anders is with you when you free Kerran you can use him to determine Kerran is okay. However when Anders flips to Vengeance to do something it is explicit and noticeable. This was not the case when Kerran was helped. Anders eyes don't change, his voice doesn't change, he just does a Magic Fu move and throws a Spirit Tree colored magic bomb at Kerran.

To say that moment is an example of using Blood Magic to help someone is reading into the situation more than just reading the situation.

And this is a POV from a player that smacked Anders hands at every opportunity about merging with Justice.

[twincast]

Okay, I'll say one thing about the blood mage spec gone missing:

 

No matter whether you deem blood magic grey, dark grey or black, nor what the objective truth of the matter may be, the important point is that the vast majority of people in-universe consider it to be evil incarnate, so it was at best ridiculous that nobody ever reacted to your player character and/or party members using it. And since they obviously couldn't figure out how to have characters properly react to it without screwing up balancing, I say you good riddance. Better gone than lore-defyingly ill-implemented.

[UltimateGohanSS]

do you think that will be basic (main) schools of magic)like in DAO and DAII Elemental, Primal(DAO), Entropy, Spirit(DAO), Arcane(DAO) and Creation

[DKJaigen]

Fel Magic in WOW can also be used for good. Doesn't stop it from being corruptive evil magic.

 

Fell magic in WoW causes physical and mental corruption that causes your very thoughts to be altered.

 

And before you say it feeds on death and suffering, i will that's exactly what i want to inflict upon my enemy . and setting them on fire is perhaps even a worse way to go then boiling their blood . Blood magic remains a tool unless i have proof that in causes a fundamental change in behaviour it remains a tool. 

[DKJaigen]

do you think that will be basic (main) schools of magic)like in DAO and DAII Elemental, Primal(DAO), Entropy, Spirit(DAO), Arcane(DAO) and Creation

 

If they are really smart they make 4 spell/talent trees base and 4 other are given by specialisation you have choose

[luckyloser_62]

do you think that will be basic (main) schools of magic)like in DAO and DAII Elemental, Primal(DAO), Entropy, Spirit(DAO), Arcane(DAO) and Creation

I'm hoping for something more like DAO in that if all I wanted from primal was ice and lightning that is all I had to take. In DA2 you pretty much have to take max out a tree to get the most out of your spells, I don't like that. I'm also hoping for more of each type of elemental damage. I really would like to see four of each type again at least. We know we have one new lightning spell and the new ice wall, but thats not to say other spells of that element didn't get taken away. 

[Rorschachinstein]

Specializng warriors is ignored by the masses as usual

[KainD]

Specializng warriors is ignored by the masses as usual

 

Mundies are boring.

[sunnydxmen]

Rift mage sounds like you be ablr to teleport through rifts.

[Darth Krytie]

Specializng warriors is ignored by the masses as usual

 

Everytime  I think about Warriors, my Rogue pops in with a rousing round of "Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better" and I end up thinking about Rogues again.

[AresKeith]

Tbh, I would've liked to see two new Warrior specs instead of Templar and Reaver

[luckyloser_62]

Rift mage sounds like you be ablr to teleport through rifts.

I doubt it. That seems like it would be a bit difficult to balance. 

[sunnydxmen]

First i be a rift mage then knight enchanter.

[sunnydxmen]

I doubt it. That seems like it would be a bit difficult to balance.

They had forms of teleport in last games especially with enemies.

[luckyloser_62]

They had forms of teleport in last games especially with enemies.

It has been stated multiple times that that wasn't actually teleportation. It was suppose to be something closer akin to ME vanguard charge, but the motion visuals got cut for one reason or another. Teleportation doesn't exist in the DA universe. There are ways to achieve something similar, like using a spell to travel through the ground (some keeper magic) or to travel short distances at extreme speeds (DA2, and we have seen a similar talent demonstrated by Vivienne). That being said, even if teleportation through the fade were possible, it would still be extremely powerful. It would be difficult to balance an entire specialization around something like that. Either it would end up obviously superior to the other two mage specializations, or the other two would also have to be OP, which would mean the other classes would have to be balanced to measure up to that in some way as well. 

[Zets09]

Everytime  I think about Warriors, my Rogue pops in with a rousing round of "Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better" and I end up thinking about Rogues again.

Kinda felt the same way with Mass Effect that infiltrator>soldier. Bioware has something againts warrior/soldier types?

[Darth Krytie]

Kinda felt the same way with Mass Effect that infiltrator>soldier. Bioware has something againts warrior/soldier types?

 

*has basically always played infiltrator* I dunno. They are sorta hella generic.

[zambingo]

I usually play whatever class/profession let's me open doors and treasure chests. It's completely silly, but I can't stand taking a nanosecond to flip to another character to do that. LOL Umm, Varric open this door for me. Thanks. Now get back in line.

KOTOR had a great mechanism for this. BASH! Of course you can lose items, but hey, can't lose what you didn't have! Revan smash puny footlocker.

So uhh... I've never really noticed the lack of love for soldiers.