6175 réponses à ce sujet

[Lucy Glitter]

Cole art! yay! lets all be positive 

Spoiler

 

Love this! The eyes are amazing! (art by "withoutafuss)

 

 art by frafi

by TehNazzy

 

Kinda want this dialogue lol but only if Cole says that! (art by TehNazzy)

 

This is breathtaking.

[The Elder King]

 

I'm trying trying to understand your example, but i do not.
 

I don't subscribe to the spirit/demon distinction. Just like folks, the Fade creatures, individually can be good, bad, and everywhere in between. This one likes to murder suffering children. I'm thinking that is bad.

This one doesn't like to murder suffering children. Cole killed the mages in the White Spire when he had no clue of who he was. There is nothing in the book, if I recall, that implies he liked to kill them. He had to do it to sustain itself.
Which is not a justification for what he did, and there's the possibility he still has to kill people to be sustain himself. But he didn't do it out of joy for killing people or children.

[Fortlowe]

  This one doesn't like to murder suffering children. Cole killed the mages in the White Spire when he had no clue of who he was. There is nothing in the book, if I recall, that implies he liked to kill them. He had to do it to sustain itself.
Which is not a justification for what he did, and there's the possibility he still has to kill people to be sustain himself. But he didn't do it out of joy for killing people or children

"Cole held her close, staring down into her eyes. He drank in every moment as the life ebbed out of her. It was an instant that seemed to stretch out into forever..and then she was gone."

 

It enjoys the killing.

[Beliar86]

"Cole held her close, staring down into her eyes. He drank in every moment as the life ebbed out of her. It was an instant that seemed to stretch out into forever..and then she was gone."

 

It enjoys the killing.

If you ever watched anybody die in front of you it's pretty much that effect, guilty or not.

[Fortlowe]

If you ever watched anybody die in front of you it's pretty much that effect, guilty or not.

I'm sorry you had to see that.

 

Still, it thanks her just before it guts her. Thanks her for how her murder will make it feel. It enjoys the killing.

[Omikuji]

I think it's less that he enjoys killing, and more he thought at the time it was the only way he could help them. Which he later learns he can help in a different way rather than killing them which is why he spares the others in the book (the lady in the tower and Pharamor or however his name is spelt)

 

He didn't understand what to do the same way a child doesn't understand that level of morality and options and was doing it because it was the only way he knew how. Clearly by the end of the book, he learns a different way and wants to help in a new light. 

[The Elder King]

"Cole held her close, staring down into her eyes. He drank in every moment as the life ebbed out of her. It was an instant that seemed to stretch out into forever..and then she was gone."

It enjoys the killing.

I'm sorry you had to see that.

Still, it thanks her just before it guts her. Thanks her for how her murder will make it feel. It enjoys the killing.

Nope. He feeds on pain/life to sustain himself. That's why he thanked his victim.
And again, he's not the same as he was at the start of the novel.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If you ever watched anybody die in front of you it's pretty much that effect, guilty or not.

Indeed. 

[Meeszy Alexy]

I'm sorry you had to see that.

 

Still, it thanks her just before it guts her. Thanks her for how her murder will make it feel. It enjoys the killing.

 

He doesn't enjoy the killing. It sustains him, yes, but there's no implication of enjoyment. If he truly enjoyed it, then he would've ignored Rhys and killed Pharamond. He killed because it sustained him, they were the only ones who'd remember him, and at the time he knew no other way. That's why he thanks them - it's "Thanks for sustaining me (though he referred it to being pulled out of darkness and remembering me" not "Thanks for dying, it feels awesome.".

 

Now he doesn't, because he's found a new way, and that new way is helping people. (Which makes me wonder whether he went from Demon of Despair to Spirit of Compassion? If he even fits on the Demon/Spirit list at all.)

 

Edit: He does feel bad for not killing Pharamond, as while he thought it morally wrong, the ex-tranquil was begging for death, not out of some desire to sustain himself. At that point, he doesn't have the desire to sustain himself with murder like he did before, thanks to Rhys.

 

Also, I'm confused. Why do you call somebody, who's pronouns in both the books and the promotion material are male ones? You don't have to like Cole, but it just seems a bit rude to not even use his preferred pronouns in favour of a dehumanising one. Yes, I know he's not human, but neither is Solas or Sera - they're elves. Should you call them "It" as well? Yes, Justice is referred to as "it", but that's because he doesn't see himself as having a gender, whereas Cole does. (Unless, of course, you're just practising your Shale impression, which in that case, I'm sorry.)

 

I think it's less that he enjoys killing, and more he thought at the time it was the only way he could help them. Which he later learns he can help in a different way rather than killing them which is why he spares the others in the book (the lady in the tower and Pharamor or however his name is spelt)

 

He didn't understand what to do the same way a child doesn't understand that level of morality and options and was doing it because it was the only way he knew how. Clearly by the end of the book, he learns a different way and wants to help in a new light. 

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. It makes me wonder though... seeing as Justice was corrupted into Vengeance, perhaps Cole's case is the other way round, where he went from demon to spirit, all because he learned that helping others was much better than killing them? From Demon of Despair to Spirit of Compassion, or something among those lines?

[The Elder King]

Solas and Sera are a male and female elf. Cole is technically a spirit, which aren't supposed to have a gender. I guess this is Fortlowe's reasoning.

[Fortlowe]

Solas and Sera are a male and female elf. Cole is technically a spirit, which aren't supposed to have a gender. I guess this is Fortlowe's reasoning.

You are correct.

[Meeszy Alexy]

There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity. Cole has no biological sex because he's a spirit, you're correct in that sense, but his gender is male because he identifies as a man. It's as simple as that.

 

Edit: In comparison, Justice has no biological sex and gender because it doesn't identify as male or female.

[Fortlowe]

Does killing sustain it or does it not? I do not think it does. As you say, it has miraculously found another way. I was mistaken (perhaps) earlier when I was under the impression that it was not killing children over the course of years. Just for a year or so.

 

But my error illuminates yet another point of contention. What was happening in the years leading up to meeting Rhys? If, at that time it was not killing (which I think it was), how did it sustain itself? If it was killing during that time then why hasn't it told Rhys about those murders? If it wasn't, and somehow did not 'fall through the cracks' then why did it start killing to begin with?

[The Elder King]

Does killing sustain it or does it not? I do not think it does. As you say, it has miraculously found another way. I was mistaken (perhaps) earlier when I was under the impression that it was not killing children over the course of years. Just for a year or so.
 
But my error illuminates yet another point of contention. What was happening in the years leading up to meeting Rhys? If, at that time it was not killing (which I think it was), how did it sustain itself? If it was killing during that time then why hasn't it told Rhys about those murders? If it wasn't, then why did it start killing to begin with?

First, we don't actually know if he found a way to sustain himself. And regardless of this, he was sustaining himself with the killings, that's sure: he said in the novel that he felt himself slipping away, and that killing people made him remain in this world.
On the second point, we have no clue what happened after Cole's death. For most of the novel he didn't know what he was. He regained his memory after Lambert's speech/when he was cast away, but he didn't talk about it during the final meeting with Lambert.

[Fortlowe]

There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity. Cole has no biological sex because he's a spirit, you're correct in that sense, but his gender is male because he identifies as a man. It's as simple as that.

 

Edit: In comparison, Justice has no biological sex and gender because it doesn't identify as male or female.

 

Justice possessed a body. Two actually. The spirit itself is an 'it' but so long as it is inhabiting a body, then it is also inhabiting that body's gender. The opposite is also true. Shale was a her before she was made a gollum. She remains so even still (though, of course, she does object to a gender categorization).

 

Cole is a construct of the spirits own making. It possessed no gender before or still. It is an it.

[Fortlowe]

First, we don't actually know if he found a way to sustain himself. And regardless of this, he was sustaining himself with the killings, that's sure: he said in the novel that he felt himself slipping away, and that killing people made him remain in this world.
On the second point, we have no clue what happened after Cole's death. For most of the novel he didn't know what he was. He regained his memory after Lambert's speech/when he was cast away, but he didn't talk about it during the final meeting with Lambert.

What we know is Cole died long before the creature encountered Rhys. Which means either it was in the Spire the whole time or Rhys' presence somehow conjured it up. If it was there the whole time, then if killing really did keep it from fading away, then it was killing the whole time. Alternatively, if it was there the whole time and not killing, then killing does not sustain it so the murders it did it did with no other motivation than gratification.

[Omikuji]

Oh no now the 'it' thing reminds me very much of what a dear friend of mine has to deal with... the identification of what that person believes they are vs what they physically are. Erm. 

 

This is also feeling like a wall talk, doesn't bring anything but repeating stuff over and over without moving on and just frustrating people.

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. It makes me wonder though... seeing as Justice was corrupted into Vengeance, perhaps Cole's case is the other way round, where he went from demon to spirit, all because he learned that helping others was much better than killing them? From Demon of Despair to Spirit of Compassion, or something among those lines?

There was this really neat theory about that sometime back in the thread, and how Cole could also be one of those big powerful demon/spirits like the one in the Masked Empire. Capable of so much more, claims himself a spirit bound by spirit rules but then goes and does something really demonish so in reality he wasn't a spirit. There was around 4/5 demons that where on the list, and one of them was something like the 'Enigma'? Shoot I should really look it up. 

 

 

 

But my error illuminates yet another point of contention. What was happening in the years leading up to meeting Rhys? If, at that time it was not killing (which I think it was), how did it sustain itself? If it was killing during that time then why hasn't it told Rhys about those murders? If it wasn't, and somehow did not 'fall through the cracks' then why did it start killing to begin with?

It never said in the book they were children. 

Also before meeting with Rhys there had been no stories of the Ghost of the Spire, there hadn't been any murders to that extent. The way it's illustrated in the books is that Cole just appeared one year before the murders to Rhys and there had been only rumors and stories of just a Ghost person walking around. Before that year, it doesn't seem like there had been any sort of talk about him at all, Rhys had lived in the Spire for some time and was surprised by these new stories, and the what was it 6 murders was just coming up. There had only been that many tied to Cole, before that there wasn't anything. 

 

My theory is that he started killing people because he was beginning to see those pain. With Rhys being so MIA he starts to feel that creeping loneliness again and without support he starts getting overwhelmed by the sorrow that was around those certain people. Why does he do it? Because he doesn't know what else to do, how do you help someone that is so far down that line and you yourself is incapable of doing anything but give them relief? 

 

Entirely theory built around what I have read, it doesn't make sense that Mages who have lived in the tower for so long only recently began telling stories of the Ghost when Rhys sees him. Maybe Cole wasn't in there as long as it's theorized to be, time slips away to those who can't find a way to tell it after all. 

[Meeszy Alexy]

Does killing sustain it or does it not? I do not think it does. As you say, it has miraculously found another way. I was mistaken (perhaps) earlier when I was under the impression that it was not killing children over the course of years. Just for a year or so.

 

But my error illuminates yet another point of contention. What was happening in the years leading up to meeting Rhys? If, at that time it was not killing (which I think it was), how did it sustain itself? If it was killing during that time then why hasn't it told Rhys about those murders? If it wasn't, and somehow did not 'fall through the cracks' then why did it start killing to begin with?

 

I say it does sustain him, though that is my opinion rather than canon so don't take it as such, and the question is how exactly that works. That "other way" is helping people and listening to them, which is what he did with Pharamond. He spared Pharamond, even though he felt bad for the mage turning tranquil. Also, just because they were apprentices doesn't guarantee that they were all children. All circle mage children are apprentices, but not all apprentices are children. Also Asunder pages 42-43 talk of an apprentice who failed his harrowing that was later killed by Cole. And the book doesn't say that he just killed apprentices, just mages that wanted to die. And a mage that failed his harrowing that was to become tranquil probably wouldn't want to live.

 

Also, during Rhys' interrogation with the Lord Seeker, Rhys explicitly said that the killings happened after he met Cole. (page 363, Asunder) The rest of your questions though, are valid. What was Cole doing during that time? Was it Rhys' (unintentional) presence/influence that might have led him to do it? Or perhaps he'd only recently appeared in the tower, and the whole "meeting Rhys before he killed people" thing is a complete coincidence?

[The Elder King]

What we know is Cole died long before the creature encountered Rhys. Which means either it was in the Spire the whole time or Rhys' presence somehow conjured it up. If it was there the whole time, then if killing really did keep it from fading away, then it was killing the whole time. Alternatively, if it was there the whole time and not killing, then killing does not sustain it so the murders it did it did with no other motivation than gratification.

Your theory doesn't explain why he felt like the was fading away when he didn't kill though. That is present in the novel. It's not a theory, it's a fact.
Either the two first theories are correct, or there's something we don't know yet.
But I personally think something was triggered when Rhys and Cole meet, regardless of how they meet.

[Meeszy Alexy]

Justice possessed a body. Two actually. The spirit itself is an 'it' but so long as it is inhabiting a body, then it is also inhabiting that body's gender. The opposite is also true. Shale was a her before she was made a gollum. She remains so even still (though, of course, she does object to a gender categorization).

 

Cole is a construct of the spirits own making. It possessed no gender before or still. It is an it.

I was referring to Awakening Justice, where he identifies as genderless until he possesses Anders and becomes one with him and even then, that's because he thinks he is both Justice and Anders, adopting Anders' gender identity.

 

Cole is a spirit who, even though now he is aware that he is either a spirit or demon and not a real human man, still identifies as a male.

 

It's nothing to do with whether he has a body with the correct "equipment". Gender identity is in the mind, sex is about genitalia. Otherwise transgender people wouldn't exist.

[The Elder King]

I was referring to Awakening Justice, where he identifies as genderless until he possesses Anders and becomes one with him and even then, that's because he thinks he is both Justice and Anders, adopting Anders' gender identity.
 
Cole is a spirit who, even though now he is aware that he is a spirit and not a real human man, still identifies as a male.
 
It's nothing to do with whether he has a body with the correct "equipment". Gender identity is in the mind, sex is about genitalia. Otherwise transgender people wouldn't exist.

Yes, but we still don't know if Cole post-Asunder refers to himself as a male.

[Fortlowe]

At the beginning of the book, the child it murders is referred to only as a girl. She burned down her parents home with power she was only vaguely aware of. That was a child acting out.

 

So far as what anyone in Asunder says about Cole, including itself, I think is up for debate. The invisibility power is one thing but its true weapon is its instinctual ability to manipulate memory. Really, who knows how long it has been doing what? The only thing that is certain is the six murders the Circle is aware of happening. Cole could have quite the body count that nobody remembers.

[The Elder King]

At the beginning of the book, the child it murders is referred to only as a girl. She burned down her parents home with power she was only vaguely aware of. That was a child acting out.
 
So far as what anyone in Asunder says about Cole, including itself, I think is up for debate. The invisibility power is one thing but its true weapon is its instinctual ability to manipulate memory. Really, who knows how long it has been doing what? The only thing that is certain is the six murders the Circle is aware of happening. Cole could have quite the body count that nobody remembers.

Possibly. In this case the sustaining would be explained.

[Meeszy Alexy]

Yes, but we still don't know if Cole post-Asunder refers to himself as a male.

 

He's referred to in promotional materials/the interview with Patrick Weekes as a "he". If he didn't anymore, chances are they'd refer to him as "it". Unless they're deliberately keeping that hidden away until the game release for some reason?

[SnakeCode]

  This one doesn't like to murder suffering children. Cole killed the mages in the White Spire when he had no clue of who he was. There is nothing in the book, if I recall, that implies he liked to kill them. He had to do it to sustain itself.
Which is not a justification for what he did, and there's the possibility he still has to kill people to be sustain himself. But he didn't do it out of joy for killing people or children.

Slight correction. Cole thinks he has to kill to sustain himself. There's no proof that he actually would have faded away had he stopped killing. 

 

If he had turned out to be just a human blood mage at the end, and not an entity from the fade. I think people would be a lot less sympathetic towards him (well, i'm not too confidant about that, this is the bsn after all.   ) I mean, come on! A guy who thinks he has to slit people's throats in order to not disappear? Screams crazy, twisted psychopath.