The more I hang about this thread the more I feel that Cole is supposed to be a very grey character, one that isn't supposed to fit into preconceived notions of good and evil, though he is at least trying to be good without selfish intent. So in other words, him being controversial might be more intentional than we might think.
Indeed. I remarked on that very notion in a previous thread. It seems designed to bypass reason via compassion.
His vulnerabile and possibly Childlike mentality isn't the reason. It's his apparent selfishness in wanting to help others without anything in change, even recognition to exist, that lead to the maternal istincts.
And to be honest, we already had professional assassins or characters that committed terrible actions in our party.
I think you mean selflessness, but yes. That's where the maternal instincts are coming from.
Exactly. Zevran was far less apologetic about his past. Anders won't regret what he did unless you maxed his rivalry and finished all his quests in the right way. Cole at least seems to be trying to be good now.
He'd probably not be able to make himself invisible to you, as he couldn't with Rhys (almost surely becuase of you trip on the Fade). As for mind controlling you, we don't know if he'll able to do so to us.I still don't buy the 'friendly ghost' bit. If this predator can make you forget anything it wants and make itself invisible, then what's to stop it from constructing the fantasy that it's 'helping'?
"Hi Cole! Did you and my neph...hmph. Did you have a good time at the fair...all by...yourself...?"
Thanks for the correctionI think you mean selflessness, but yes. That's where the maternal instincts are coming from.
Exactly. Zevran was far less apologetic about his past. Anders won't regret what he did unless you maxed his rivalry and finished all his quests in the right way. Cole at least seems to be trying to be good now.
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Indeed. I remarked on that very notion in a previous thread. It seems designed to bypass reason via compassion.
At least we agree on something. (Even though I wish you'd use male pronouns but I can't stop you, especially if they reveal later that he doesn't use them anymore.)
The more I hang about this thread the more I feel that Cole is supposed to be a very grey character, one that isn't supposed to fit into preconceived notions of good and evil, though he is at least trying to be good without selfish intent. So in other words, him being controversial might be more intentional than we might think.
I think any character who kills/has killed/caused the death of innocents is going to split the fanbase. Look at Anders, he is adored and vilified in equal measure.
I think any character who kills/has killed/caused the death of innocents is going to split the fanbase. Look at Anders, he is adored and vilified in equal measure.
I think any character who kills/has killed/caused the death of innocents is going to split the fanbase. Look at Anders, he is adored and vilified in equal measure.
I think what happened there is making things a lot harder for Cole too, thanks Justice! I think people have this thing in their psyche now when it comes to spirits/the fade, that anything from the fade is evil, people even called Wynne an abomination. I imagine they'll say the same about Evangeline...
His vulnerabile and possibly Childlike mentality isn't the reason. It's his apparent selflessness in wanting to help others without anything in change, even recognition to exist, that lead to the maternal istincts.
And to be honest, we already had professional assassins or characters that committed terrible actions in our party.
Indeed. And besides, I think a lot of people (especially those who don't play these games as "self-inserts") have much more relaxed views on fictional characters than on real people. I wouldn't go anywhere near a murderer IRL, but many of my favorite characters are terribly homicidal. I like them because they're interesting and bring something to the story.
I think any character who kills/has killed/caused the death of innocents is going to split the fanbase. Look at Anders, he is adored and vilified in equal measure.
Sten's not got many haters
I think what happened there is making things a lot harder for Cole too, thanks Justice! I think people have this thing in their psyche now when it comes to spirits/the fade, that anything from the fade is evil, people even called Wynne an abomination. I imagine they'll say the same about Evangeline...
Whenever someone mentions Justice i think of this and i feel like its fairly appropriate. Cole is obviously a spirit of redemption he shall show the world that not all spirits are evvvviallll. Idk
Leliana, Sten, or Zevran don't split the fanbase as Anders.
That's true, but Sten doesn't garner half the fan reaction in general that most characters seem to get, what i've seen suggests the fanbase is still fairly evenly split though. I've seen many say that they always leave him in his cage where they found him.
I'm not aware of the innocents Leliana killed? I'd appreciate it if you could refresh my memory.
Zev i'll agree with, fan reaction towards him seems to be overwhelming positive. I think people give him a pass due to his sense of humour, which isn't a satisfying reason but it does seem to be the general response. Even then i've seen posters claim that they always cut him down after the assassination attempt.
I think what happened there is making things a lot harder for Cole too, thanks Justice! I think people have this thing in their psyche now when it comes to spirits/the fade, that anything from the fade is evil, people even called Wynne an abomination. I imagine they'll say the same about Evangeline...
Yeah, Justice has given spirits a bad rap to be sure. Although to be fair Wynne and Eva technically are abominations (even if they aren't like the usual ones we encounter or have heard about.)
Oh, this thread... 
@ Fortlowe: FIrst off, refusing to call someone by the gender they see themselves as is rude. Would you insist on referring to a girl, who looks like a girl, lives as a girl, identifies herself as a girl, but happened to be born male a 'he?' Because biologically that is what they are? Sorry if I sound combative, and I realize Cole not being human is a factor here, but I've known too many transgender people who've had to deal with that sort of thing for your insistence on using "it" to not rub me the wrong way.
Anyway, my theory (and this is all theory based on reading the book, which in my opinion leaves a lot of things intentionally vague and open to interpretation) is that Cole might only think the murders sustain him. I'd initially forgotten that the murders don't begin until after Cole meet Rhys, but in a way it makes more sense. Before he meets Rhys, Cole just sort of drifts through the tower, watching and observing and accepting the fact that that's all he'll ever be able to do.
He meets Rhys and suddenly gets a taste of what it's like to actually feel substantial, to be noticed and remembered, to actually exist. To the point where, when Rhys goes away, now Cole knows what it means to want that, but he doesn't know to get it. The only people who acknowledge him are those who have lost hope, who he sees as potentially fading away just like the boy Cole did. Maybe it's a mercy killing, maybe it's the only thing in his power to do, maybe it occurs to him that if someone dies after seeing him they can't forget him. This is where the 'sustenance' thing comes in. I really didn't interpret his reaction to his victim's death as joy at all. There's no real reason for him not to, as I mentioned before, since he only has a fledgling sense of ethics, and he has no fear of being caught or punished. Again, it doesn't make it okay, but remember he's not a human being, and even the human who's memories he possesses was probably not the best example of a healthy, well-adjusted mind. Just a guess 
I think being acknowledged by those who call him a friends, by knowing he can make an impression on them by protecting them, he finds a different way to sustain himself. He learns he can be important, and make a difference. By the end of the book, he is no longer the invisible bystander he was before meeting Rhys, nor is he the desperate creature killing people because he doesn't know what else to do to feel like he's real. And now, in Inquisition, based on the write-ups about him and the fact that he's willing to join the Inquisition at all, I'd say he's moved well beyond that version of himself as well.
I'm not aware of the innocents Leliana killed? I'd appreciate it if you could refresh my memory.
Well, she was an assassin in Orlais...
Have you ever played the Leliana's Song DLC? Granted, since she is a playable character, you can choose to do those quests at the beginning any way you want, but it's pretty clear her view of the world then was pretty mercenary, and she would do almost anything as long as impresses it her lover. And, she's there by choice, so you could argue she's worse than Zevran.
Don't get me wrong, I like Leliana, but she kills a lot more people than Cole does, and arguable gets a lot more obvious joy out of it.
I think what happened there is making things a lot harder for Cole too, thanks Justice! I think people have this thing in their psyche now when it comes to spirits/the fade, that anything from the fade is evil, people even called Wynne an abomination. I imagine they'll say the same about Evangeline...
I don't think that. Wynne is one of my favorite characters (whose fate Cole is partially to blame for).
Bye the by, I refer to and acknowledge real people as they would prefer. Rupaul is in my mind a she. Period. Cole is a fictional character. A fictional character that is a construct of a genderless fade creature. A fictional character of a Fade spirit that is in my opinion extremely distasteful. I cannot be rude to a fictional character. And how I refer to it is admittedly tasked with demonstrating my contempt. But it has no bearing on my politics.
Well, she was an assassin in Orlais...
Have you ever played the Leliana's Song DLC? Granted, since she is a playable character, you can choose to do those quests at the beginning any way you want, but it's pretty clear her view of the world then was pretty mercenary, and she would do almost anything as long as impresses it her lover. And, she's there by choice, so you could argue she's worse than Zevran.
Don't get me wrong, I like Leliana, but she kills a lot more people than Cole does, and arguable gets a lot more obvious joy out of it.
I have, but not in a long while. I'm just struggling to think of the innocent people she killed, innocent being the key word here.
I would agree that she is indeed worse than Zevran in that case, though both have admitted to enjoy killing.
How soI don't think that. Wynne is one of my favorite characters (whose fate Cole is partially to blame for).
Bye the by, I refer to and acknowledge real people as they would prefer. Rupaul is in my mind a she. Period. Cole is a fictional character. A fictional character that is a construct of a genderless fade creature. A fictional character of a Fade spirit that is in my opinion extremely distasteful. I cannot be rude to a fictional character. And how I refer to it is admittedly tasked with demonstrating my contempt. But it has no bearing on my politics.
? Adrian killed Pharamond. Yes, she took advantage of what Cole did, but. I don't see why he's to blame for something she did.
@SnakeCode: I should said 'possibly', but she worked as a bard in Orlais and she killed people. I don't think all were criminals (or that all did something that made them deserve death).
You're probably right, I don't see how her hands would be clean. I also remember that her first reaction in Asunder is to kill the templars guarding Rhys's cell, when other options were possible, and they (at least in my mind) were innocents
I really feel like what Cole was doing is more akin to assisted suicide than murder.
That's true, but Sten doesn't garner half the fan reaction in general that most characters seem to get, what i've seen suggests the fanbase is still fairly evenly split though. I've seen many say that they always leave him in his cage where they found him.
I'm not aware of the innocents Leliana killed? I'd appreciate it if you could refresh my memory.
Zev i'll agree with, fan reaction towards him seems to be overwhelming positive. I think people give him a pass due to his sense of humour, which isn't a satisfying reason but it does seem to be the general response. Even then i've seen posters claim that they always cut him down after the assassination attempt.
Yeah, Justice has given spirits a bad rap to be sure. Although to be fair Wynne and Eva technically are abominations (even if they aren't like the usual ones we encounter or have heard about.)
I mean in a more "She's a witch! BURN HER!" way 
You're probably right, I don't see how her hands would be clean. I also remember that her first reaction in Asunder is to kill the templars guarding Rhys's cell, when other options were possible, and they (at least in my mind) were innocents
Well, if you count those three templars as innocents... I don't know about you but as Leliana I mowed down A LOT of Denerim city guards. Like a lot a lot
I mean in a more "She's a witch! BURN HER!" way
Yeah I know, I was just pointing that out.
I wonder if Eva can actually die now that she's being... sustained by the spirit, many are speculating that her and Rhys may be killed off early in the game.
Oh, this thread...
@ Fortlowe: FIrst off, refusing to call someone by the gender they see themselves as is rude. Would you insist on referring to a girl, who looks like a girl, lives as a girl, identifies herself as a girl, but happened to be born male a 'he?' Because biologically that is what they are? Sorry if I sound combative, and I realize Cole not being human is a factor here, but I've known too many transgender people who've had to deal with that sort of thing for your insistence on using "it" to not rub me the wrong way.
Anyway, my theory (and this is all theory based on reading the book, which in my opinion leaves a lot of things intentionally vague and open to interpretation) is that Cole might only think the murders sustain him. I'd initially forgotten that the murders don't begin until after Cole meet Rhys, but in a way it makes more sense. Before he meets Rhys, Cole just sort of drifts through the tower, watching and observing and accepting the fact that that's all he'll ever be able to do.
He meets Rhys and suddenly gets a taste of what it's like to actually feel substantial, to be noticed and remembered, to actually exist. To the point where, when Rhys goes away, now Cole knows what it means to want that, but he doesn't know to get it. The only people who acknowledge him are those who have lost hope, who he sees as potentially fading away just like the boy Cole did. Maybe it's a mercy killing, maybe it's the only thing in his power to do, maybe it occurs to him that if someone dies after seeing him they can't forget him. This is where the 'sustenance' thing comes in. I really didn't interpret his reaction to his victim's death as joy at all. There's no real reason for him not to, as I mentioned before, since he only has a fledgling sense of ethics, and he has no fear of being caught or punished. Again, it doesn't make it okay, but remember he's not a human being, and even the human who's memories he possesses was probably not the best example of a healthy, well-adjusted mind. Just a guess
I think being acknowledged by those who call him a friends, by knowing he can make an impression on them by protecting them, he finds a different way to sustain himself. He learns he can be important, and make a difference. By the end of the book, he is no longer the invisible bystander he was before meeting Rhys, nor is he the desperate creature killing people because he doesn't know what else to do to feel like he's real. And now, in Inquisition, based on the write-ups about him and the fact that he's willing to join the Inquisition at all, I'd say he's moved well beyond that version of himself as well.
What if it was your little sister or brother or child that Cole came to visit? They're laying there in the dark, scared alone and wishing nothing else than not to be because they can't see past tomorrow. And then Cole shows up and tells them they don't have to worry about tomorrow and he can make it easy for them. Is it still a mercy killing? Suicide? Empathy very much does have its place. I just don't think it's with Cole.
How so
And 'Cole' the spirit still might refer to himself as a male.
I know. Not really. I just miss Wynne 
.
Still don't care what it refers to itself as, though.
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