6175 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

It's a girl that only very recently got her mage powers that burned down her home while her family was inside. This sounds very much like, if far more deadly, Wynne's story of her awakening to magic. My understanding is magic manifests in the very early stage of puberty. Which means the girl in the book is a child. Interpret i differently if you like, but that's how I see it.

 

So far as whether it knows right from wrong, I find it difficult to believe. It knows what happened to the real Cole was wrong. It knows if it is caught killing the girl it will be dispatched. But somehow it thinks killing is wrong for others and right for him? Ridiculous.

[Fortlowe]

Actually, lets take this a step back. What language did you read Asunder in? I'm curious if there's some sort of breakdown in communication or something. It's never implied that Cole kills children in the English version.

The English version. Where it says :

 

"I didn't mean to burn it down," she whispered through ragged breaths. "The fire came out of my hands, but I don't even know why. It all happened so fast, I tried to warn them...."

 

That's the little girl describing what would have been her first experience using magic. Even though we know it's a lie, it's a lie that only works if she was of the age that magic first manifests: puberty.

 

"Are you a mage, then?" she asked. "They said a mage would come."

 

That's the child indicating she has been informed she is not to be summarily executed, but judged first.

 

"I'm...fading away," he muttered. "I can feel myself slipping through the cracks. I have to do this, I'm sorry."

 

That's Cole explaining to the little girl that he's going to kill her no matter what.

 

The exchange after that I've posted on numerous occasions. It's Cole selling the idea of killing her to its victim. She responds by confessing that she murdered her family, but the context of that confession is also intriguing. She thinks Cole is a demon come to possess her. Maybe she sees becoming an abomination as a means for survival. If she could convince the demon she was enough of a badass, it might possess her, perhaps making her strong enough to maybe break out. It is a separate conjecture.

 

The facts are, that that was a little girl, even if she's never called a child specifically, and that Cole was going to kill her, whether he convinced her to do so without resistance or not.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The facts are, that that was a little girl, even if she's never called a child specifically, and that Cole was going to kill her, whether he convinced her to do so without resistance or not.

Except when he talked to someone else who decided they didn't want to die, he spared them and simply left. 

[Kisari]

I always play it nice. The Inquisitor doesn't know Cole from the man on the moon and as such, like any potential party member, the Inquisitor will likely welcome a potential ally. Of course that largely depends on the circumstances. If, over time, it becomes clear that Cole is what I think it is, which I'm sure will involve some awful choice, then it probably will be put down. If it turns out that friendship really is magic and now the child killer has become a paragon of cuddliness as so many of its supporters seem to think....I'll still probably put it down.

 

Really it comes down to how much weight its past (or probably current) homicidal tendencies are given in the game, I think. For example the situation with Sten. Sten murdered a family. But after you finish his companion quest the incident is almost never acknowledged again except in a conversation with Alistair. That was a missed opportunity, I think, to flesh out that characters narrative. However, because the transgression was handled in what amounts to a hand wave, many fans of the game, myself included, became quite fond of Sten.

 

The same could, and I'll acknowledge probably will, happen with Cole's transgressions. However I think about Cole, if in the game it is nothing but noble, then it will be a welcome companion. Still, I will say, as I've said before, if the Cole in the game is nothing but noble, then the game Cole is an entirely different character than Cole from Asunder. Not an extension, evolution, or any other version of the Cole from the book, but entirely a different entity that shares only the name. Asunder Cole is a homicidal maniac that specializes in murdering trapped, traumatized, and helpless children at the end of their whits.

 

If that fact is given the proper amount of weight in game, I think many of its supporters will come around to my way of thinking. It, Asunder Cole at least, should be put down.

I don't really want to argue with you about anything else, as I don't think anyone will be able to change your mind. But this bolded point, I wanted to add something real quick. The fact that he is not a human could make this very possible. You say it would be like he wouldn't even be the same as Asunder Cole, but I don't think so. Patrick has said Cole has changed, and when, in Asunder, Lambert told him that he was a demon he literally *poofed* away and came back... Suddenly with his memories back and intent. The Cole in all of Asunder didn't know who he was, he believed he was that original Cole. While I don't believe he was living with that Cole's entire life memories(it seemed like he only had the memories of when original Cole's mother was killed, strangled little sister, and then killed his dad and rotted in the dungeon), those were affecting who he was and how he was perceiving the world.
I believe that learning and remembering what he really is could easily completely change him. Remember, he isn't a human.
 

@Dropkick Hellion
I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting something more than friendship but not a sexual relationship. There's been a lot of requests for asexual/platonic romances regarding both Cole and just Dragon Age games in general. I've mentioned this before, but the biggest reason (for me) is because you don't get anything with someone if you don't romance them. You can't run off into the sunset with your BFF. That's all I really want... I just hope friendships are as deep as romances this time around.

[Fortlowe]

Except when he talked to someone else who decided they didn't want to die, he spared them and simply left. 

Not a child and not a mage. It can be argued this woman (who is described as a young woman, not a girl, interestingly enough) does not fit its profile. However, I think it is more likely it was simply concerned more that Rhys and the others might find out if he killed her.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So out of curiosity, what would make you change your mind about Cole like you did the other killers in the series so far? 

[Fortlowe]

So out of curiosity, what would make you change your mind about Cole like you did the other killers in the series so far? 

As I've said, if the in game Cole is nothing but noble, its previous transgressions are not addressed, and other considerations are addressed (most importantly, proof its not doing its creepy mind trick on everyone), then I will approach the in game Cole as an entirely different being than the in book Cole. It would be rather disappointing if its past was hand waived away, but frankly not unexpected.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As I've said, if the in game Cole is nothing but noble, its previous transgressions are not addressed, and other considerations are addressed (most importantly, proof its not doing its creepy mind trick on everyone), then I will approach the in game Cole as an entirely different being than the in book Cole. It would be rather disappointing if its past was hand waived away, but frankly not unexpected.

What is if the past transgressions are addressed, and he is really sorry about what he did in the past? Similar to how Sten was but maybe even more so, like wanting to make amends? 

[Fortlowe]

It can be argued that Sten was suffering from PTSD. He flew off the handle briefly and it cost people their lives. Doesn't make what he did right, but it does put it in the realm of temporary insanity. What Cole did was deliberate, calculated, and repeated over an extended period of time. Its just not the same thing.

 

As far as addressing the murders with a hand waive? Easily done, retcon the little girl it killed into a young woman then make sure all its victims were murderers like her. Just like that, Cole is no longer a predator but an enforcer. Anyone that didn't read the book will accept that information out of hand, those of us that did would have to accept the retcon as canon.

 

So far as addressing the murder as is? Impossible. If the Inquisition finds out it has a habitual child murderer, even a former one, within its ranks, I don't see how it could be tolerated.

[Magister Caedus]

So far as addressing the murder as is? Impossible. If the Inquisition finds out it has a habitual child murderer, even a former one, within its ranks, I don't see how it could be tolerated.

Depends on the Inquisition. 

[Fortlowe]

Depends on the Inquisition. 

True. It would make an excellent attack dog for the right kind of Inquisitor.

[Magister Caedus]

Admittedly, I haven't read Asunder yet. I plan to, though.

I find the idea that he kills (at least partially) because he feels himself "fading away" very interesting. It leads me to wonder if the spilling of blood in such a manner actually helps to anchor him to Thedas, or if it is more psychological in nature, and the act simply makes him feel more complete.

 

Cole being a serial killer actually doesn't bother me in the least. As I understand it, he operates on a sort of blue and orange morality, so he is not "evil" in my opinion, he just operates on different principles.

 

Edit: Anyway, he is likely a bit different in DA:I. I think who Cole's past will be mentioned, but I think I am more interested in who Cole is, and who he will become, as opposed to who he was.

[Fortlowe]

You know... I don't really care if you think it's okay because he's a spirit, or okay because he's a bad person. His identity is as a "he." As far as I can tell, all material about him has referred to him as such. You know that by denying such a petty thing as someone's basic gender identity you could be triggering the sort of abuses transgendered individuals face all the time? It doesn't matter if they're not the same thing. The way you do it feels the same.

 

Unless you're okay with at least being obnoxious if not ignorantly malicious, please just stop with the "it"s already.

I've nothing but respect for the transgender community and happily refer to them in the appropriate manner. I think Cole is a homicidal inhuman and most importantly fictional monster, however. How I refer to it has nothing to do with my politics.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It can be argued that Sten was suffering from PTSD. He flew off the handle briefly and it cost people their lives. Doesn't make what he did right, but it does put it in the realm of temporary insanity. What Cole did was deliberate, calculated, and repeated over an extended period of time. Its just not the same thing.

 

As far as addressing the murders with a hand waive? Easily done, retcon the little girl it killed into a young woman then make sure all its victims were murderers like her. Just like that, Cole is no longer a predator but an enforcer. Anyone that didn't read the book will accept that information out of hand, those of us that did would have to accept the retcon as canon.

 

So far as addressing the murder as is? Impossible. If the Inquisition finds out it has a habitual child murderer, even a former one, within its ranks, I don't see how it could be tolerated.

So I'm assuming you feel the same towards characters who were murderers and enjoyed it in the past. For example Zevran, Leliana, Morrigan, Velanna, Isabela, and/or Fenris? 

[Milan92]

I'm voting for a "Hug Cole whenever we want" option.

[Maria Caliban]

Fortlowe being a hypocrite would not make him wrong.

If I'm fine with Leliana being a killer, that doesn't make Zevran less of a killer.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Fortlowe being a hypocrite would not make him wrong.

If I'm fine with Leliana being a killer, that doesn't make Zevran less of a killer.

I'm not trying to make him seem a hypocrite. Just trying to see his viewpoint by asking his opinions on the other companions we have that are known murderers. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I barely can apply morality to Cole. Or any spirit. The only trait they seem to have is "not belonging". A kind of stupidity or ignorance about people and life here. This goes for Justice, and possibly for some of the stuff Wynne says too (maybe that's just the actual Wynne though).

Faith never seemed to speak for or through Wynne, so I think that's all her. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Compassion? You mean Faith?

 

I think her beliefs and insistence that you just live out life as a "symbol" instead of as an actual person is a bit strange at least. It sounds alien and abstract, like a spirit of Faith would do.

Edited. Yes I mean Faith. Being the Cole thread, my mind jumped to Spirit of Compassion.

 

I don't see it as strange. Having the life she has had and knowledge she had access to, she knows that Wardens are more than just soldiers who combat the Darkspawn but are also a symbol for Thedas to rally behind. I mean, the only times the nations of Thedas have ever set aside their differences and worked together was against the Blights following the Grey Wardens. The Spirit of Faith may have strengthened those views, but they seem sometyhing she would have before. After all, she felt similarly in Ostagar before Faith saved her life. 

[Fortlowe]

Zevran and Leliana were professional assassins. Neither their clients nor their targets could likely be counted amongst the innocent and if so, it was likely without their knowledge. Cole wasn't killing because he was ordered to, or he was being paid to, or even for one political agenda or another. This is what an assassin does. Cole kills for the sake of killing. Cole doesn't assassinate. Cole does murder. There is a distinction.