6175 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

Okay I'm swayed, but is there any prerequisite for reading it?

Beyond playing through the original game with the 'Stone Prisoner' add on? Nope.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Okay I'm swayed, but is there any prerequisite for reading it?

If there had to be, I'd say you had to have played DAO for Shale and Wynne have references to what happened to them andDA2 since they reference the Kirkwall Incident. But both are explained well enough that you won't feel lost. 

[Fialka]

Okay I'm swayed, but is there any prerequisite for reading it?

I don't think so... beyond having played the games.  I hadn't read any of the other books before it, though I'm slowly making my way through The Masked Empire now.  I know there's one character in it (that appears briefly) from a previous book, but she plays a bit part and I don't think you really miss anything if you don't know who she is.

 

Edit:  As others before me said, even playing the games probably isn't necessary, for reasons previously stated    It just helps.

[Tootles FTW]

[Fortlowe]

I actually agree with you here... erm... sort of.  The closest to agreeing with you I'll probably ever come, anyway 

 

Though the connection between blood-letting/blood magic/demons is interesting to speculate about in regards to Cole, I don't actually think Cole needed to kill to survive.  As you say, he didn't before, and I presume he didn't after, and he didn't die/disappear.  

 

I think he just believes it's something he needs to do - or more accurately, it's something he wants to do because the alternative (vanishing/not being real anymore) has become a lot more frightening now that he knows what it feels like to actually exist to another person (a feeling Rhys gives him - a feeling I don't think Cole had experienced before, so he didn't know to want it).  

 

Cole just goes about getting it back in a very messed up way... Fortunately, he's able to understand that it's messed up and is able to find an alternative - he finds a purpose to his existence, and he comes to understand that there's better ways to help others than just putting them out of their misery.

 

Assuming it wasn't killing the entire time it was in the Spire prior to conact with Rhys, I have a question:

 

Doesn't what it does strike you as a bit selfish, though? To me it is monstrously so. Killing so that it can be noticed. I don't think it is worth it. Its status quo prior to contact with Rhys was all it knew, and although it was a lonely and perhaps melancholy existence, it was not perilous or painful and presumably not burdened with the task of regular murders.

[Ali111g1994]

I don't think so... beyond having played the games.  I hadn't read any of the other books before it, though I'm slowly making my way through The Masked Empire now.  I know there's one character in it (that appears briefly) from a previous book, but she plays a bit part and I don't think you really miss anything if you don't know who she is.

 

Edit:  As others before me said, even playing the games probably isn't necessary, for reasons previously stated    It just helps.

 

 

If there had to be, I'd say you had to have played DAO for Shale and Wynne have references to what happened to them andDA2 since they reference the Kirkwall Incident. But both are explained well enough that you won't feel lost. 

 

 

Beyond playing through the original game with the 'Stone Prisoner' add on? Nope.

 

 

Nope, especially if you're familiar with the games.  Just dive right in!  They do a good job of explaining Cole as well as the other major characters in the book.

Thanks everyone Love the series so shouldn't get lost!

[SnakeCode]

Wha? Sera?

 

Cole is very much different. He's still "he" by the writer's words and the official website's words. The practice of taking that established gender and altering it to suit your prejudice is vile, regardless of whether a specific target 'deserves' it in your eyes. What I would like is for posters to refrain from engaging in this out of respect for basic civility. It's not about who Cole is.

 

That said, I'm perfectly okay with Sera having this very disrespectful habit, just like I'm okay with characters being racist, slavers, serial killers, etc. They're characters, they're allowed to have whatever traits the writers want them to have. Characters are allowed to swear all they want, too, but on the forum it's against the rules, and there is an actual reason for that.

 

People here need to be excellent to each other.

Yes. Sera.

 

I'm not sure why you felt the need for the lecture, i've never called Cole an "it" and I never will. I was defending Sera's stance.

[Fortlowe]

That's speculation since he's never taken a non-male form. But if he did shapeshift into an elf woman and started referring to himself as a she, why would you have a problem referring to her as such? Why does it even matter? Like it begrudges you to have to oblige someone the pronoun they prefer. You're still arbitrarily choosing to apply your own identity to someone in contradiction to the identity they've presented to you.

 

I can't stop you from posting how you prefer since I doubt mods would consider this an offense worthy of action, but I still really wish you would. It gives bad vibes.

Cole gives me bad vibes.

[Fialka]

Assuming it wasn't killing the entire time it was in the Spire prior to conact with Rhys, I have a question:

 

Doesn't what it does strike you as a bit selfish, though? To me it is monstrously so. Killing so that it can be noticed. I don't think it is worth it. Its status quo prior to contact was Rhys was all it knew, and although it was a lonely and perhaps melancholy existence, it was not perilous or painful and presumably not burderned with the task of regular murders.

Of course it's selfish.  Though I would argue that his reasons go beyond something as simple as 'being noticed.'  In the book he questions his very existence, and whether he is even real.  It's only when he kills that he feels he is.  And there's this rather interesting line at the end of the first chapter, which I completely forgot about:

 

Spoiler

"They would come with their spells and their swords. They would wrestle him to the ground, and then he would be locked away in a cell again. He would be lost in that blackness until they came to deal with him once and for all. This time they wouldn’t forget him. This time the door would open and they would see him lying there, and by then he would be begging them to end it.

But no one came.

No one ever came."

 

A hope maybe, that he gets caught?  That he wants to be destroyed for what he's done?  Hard to tell, but it certainly goes against the stab-happy murderer you paint him as.  It's not a very demonic trait, at any rate...

 

But, back to the selfish thing... Sure, it is.  I've never claimed that what he does is right, just that I can empathize with (what I interpret as) his reasons, and not think him irredeemably evil because of what he does.  Selfish and evil aren't the same thing.  Really, the number of companions who act selfishly in the Dragon Age games far outnumbers those who don't.  It doesn't make them deserving of hatred or death.  At least Cole overcomes that selfishness, or is at least trying.

[Fortlowe]

That's speculation since he's never taken a non-male form. But if he did shapeshift into an elf woman and started referring to himself as a she, why would you have a problem referring to her as such? Why does it even matter? Like it begrudges you to have to oblige someone the pronoun they prefer. You're still arbitrarily choosing to apply your own identity to someone in contradiction to the identity they've presented to you.

 

I can't stop you from posting how you prefer since I doubt mods would consider this an offense worthy of action, but I still really wish you would. It gives bad vibes.

It's not speculation. Cole's present form is that of its choosing. That is an ability all its own. It has not suddenly stopped being able to become invisible or make people forget him, so why would this ability be lost?

[Leoroc]

Do you call Justice "it"?

[Fialka]

Its not speculation. Cole's present form is that of its choosing. That is an ability all its own. It has not suddenly stopped being able to become invisible or make people forget him, so why would this ability be lost?

It is speculation.  unless you can quote exactly where in the book it says he chooses Cole's form?  What I got from the book is that he's trapped in Cole's identity, and his physical form along with it.  

[Fortlowe]

Of course it's selfish.  Though I would argue that his reasons go beyond something as simple as 'being noticed.'  In the book he questions his very existence, and whether he is even real.  It's only when he kills that he feels he is.  And there's this rather interesting line at the end of the first chapter, which I completely forgot about:

 

Spoiler

"They would come with their spells and their swords. They would wrestle him to the ground, and then he would be locked away in a cell again. He would be lost in that blackness until they came to deal with him once and for all. This time they wouldn’t forget him. This time the door would open and they would see him lying there, and by then he would be begging them to end it.

But no one came.

No one ever came."

 

A hope maybe, that he gets caught?  That he wants to be destroyed for what he's done?  Hard to tell, but it certainly goes against the stab-happy murderer you paint him as.  It's not a very demonic trait, at any rate...

 

But, back to the selfish thing... Sure, it is.  I've never claimed that what he does is right, just that I can empathize with (what I interpret as) his reasons, and not think him irredeemably evil because of what he does.  Selfish and evil aren't the same thing.  Really, the number of companions who act selfishly in the Dragon Age games far outnumbers those who don't.  It doesn't make them deserving of hatred or death.  At least Cole overcomes that selfishness, or is at least trying.

 I don't know if it is a desire to be punished, though I can see why you, who are sympathetic to Cole, could see it that way. I see it as an understanding that it has and will continue to do what it just did without consequence.

 

Interestingly, by either interpretation, that particular passage is evidence that it was aware of the wrongness of its crimes.

[Fortlowe]

Do you call Justice "it"?

Yes.

 

It is speculation.  unless you can quote exactly where in the book it says he chooses Cole's form?  What I got from the book is that he's trapped in Cole's identity, and his physical form along with it.  

 

I can point out that the boy Cole is twelve years old when he died and the creature Cole has the body of a twenty something, both in the book and apparently in the upcoming game, so it does not seem to age.

[SnakeCode]

In absence of an attack to defend against. If Sera from Thedas feels he is a dangerous thing, that's fine. Thedas is understandably very magic phobic in general. But I'm pretty sure he's not a threat to any of us or our mage children. Without fear to motivate it, all that's left is spite.

Why wouldn't she fear him? What reason has she to trust that he doesn't have malicious intent towards her? His word? It's never ended well for anyone that took a demon at it's word.

[Fialka]

 

Interestingly, by either interpretation, that particular passage is evidence that it was aware of the wrongness of its crimes.

Well... yes.  He knows he if got caught he'd be punished (he just knows he won't get caught, despite a part of him maybe hoping he will be).  He also knows Rhys wouldn't like it (also a punishment), which is why he initially hides it from him.  But knowing you'll be punished and actually understanding why it's morally wrong are two different things... If you've ever spent any time around small children you'd know that....  

 

Fortunately most kids don't have the knowledge/strength/desire to kill.  Stealing on the other hand...    I once had to march my (then four-year-old) step-daughter back into a store because she'd pocketed a bunch of candy.  i made her do the whole 'give it back and apologize' thing, and when I asked her later why she was so sad it wasn't because she felt bad, it was because she got caught and was going to be punished.

[SnakeCode]

I agree. 

 

Again, it looks like you're tilting at windmills. I know people have given Sera a piece of their mind in the Sera thread over that bit of info, but I was not among them. My issue with how people post here has nothing to do with her.

You quoted my post defending Sera's stance, what was your issue with the way I posted?

[Exaltation]

I didn't mind Shale calling me "It".
Wonder if she named others like that because they treated her like object?

I don't have a reason to call Cole "It",just as much as i don't have a reason to call Flemeth "It" lol.
Sera and anyone else will get bitchslapped if they hurt my Cole!

[SnakeCode]

You were making a false equivalence between Sera's stance and people in this thread's stance, at least enough to banish Fortlowe's temporary remorse that lasted a whole one post. 

No I wasn't. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I never even mentioned anybody else.

[Fortlowe]

You were making a false equivalence between Sera's stance and people in this thread's stance, at least enough to banish Fortlowe's temporary remorse that lasted a whole one post. 

I'd prefer an opinion like that be expressed via PM.