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Cole discussion, speculation, and fan thread: "How do you know?"


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#3701
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This makes me think he was some sort of spirit drawn to the suffering of the human Cole, "drained" his memories/psyche(whether subconsciously or not), until he died. This possibly giving him enough power to manifest. It's stated that the veil is thin at the White Spire also. I really don't think Cole is a corpse, it would make a lot of stuff that happened nonsensical. But then nothing always makes sense anyways. I'm hoping he knows and will be able to tell us himself honestly. :wizard:

Edit: Also if he was in a corpse, when he poofed near the end of Asunder, it would have left the body behind like it did with Justice/Kristoff in Awakening.

Not to mention that it would have been almost completely decayed. Kristoff's body started to decay even though it was inhabited by Justice. If a spirit had possessed Cole's body, then he'd basically be a walking skeleton at this point. I mean, DA:I takes place three years after Asunder, and even in Asunder it sounds like Cole had died many years before.


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#3702
twincast

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Yup, agreed.

It's a good subject for debate, though. Whether we can really say they are one in the same. I don't really think they are, but some might think otherwise.

 

Been meaning to bring up this comparison for days:

If you upload your mind to an android robot body (or any sort of computer, really) before you die, do you continue to existthat is to say liveafter (your original body's) death? Food for thought.


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#3703
KirstyLionheart

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Been meaning to bring up this comparison for days:

If you upload your mind to an android robot body (or any sort of computer, really) before you die, do you continue to existthat is to say liveafter (your original body's) death? Food for thought.

 

Food for thought indeed. And I'm starving.



#3704
Kisari

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Not to mention that it would have been almost completely decayed. Kristoff's body started to decay even though it was inhabited by Justice. If a spirit had possessed Cole's body, then he'd basically be a walking skeleton at this point. I mean, DA:I takes place three years after Asunder, and even in Asunder it sounds like Cole had died many years before.

He also needs to sleep, eat and he sweats and bleeds so... yeah not very corpse-like. xD


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#3705
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Been meaning to bring up this comparison for days:

If you upload your mind to an android robot body (or any sort of computer, really) before you die, do you continue to exist—that is to say live—after (your original body's) death? Food for thought.

That reminds me of The Outer Limits episode "Simon Says".



#3706
Faerah

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I still have this sort of gut feeling that the original Cole (either just his soul or his body was resurrected like Wynne) is still around in some way. Maybe the entities completely merged and share memories now. Or the spirit "took control" (or Cole let it take control) and was confused by Cole's memories, at least at first.

 

At the very least, the spirit somehow has Cole's memories as if the spirit lived them. I don't know how much demons/spirits can divine from living targets, but it just seems very...detailed. On the other hand we have Justice, but if I recall correctly, Justice didn't remember things about Kristof's life very well. (I'm probably wrong but didn't he have difficulty remembering stuff about his wife or something?)

 

 

He also needs to sleep, eat and he sweats and bleeds so... yeah not very corpse-like. xD

^and then this. But he's physical? but isn't decaying like justice, so not a corpse? And he can completely vanish/teleport/????. Cole you just need to stop being such an anomaly, for the sake of all of our sanity.

 

 

Edit: Earlier on in the thread I brought up him being a shade or ash wraith, which I still think is a possibility.


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#3707
Hellion Rex

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#3708
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#3709
Kisari

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I still have this sort of gut feeling that the original Cole (either just his soul or his body was resurrected like Wynne) is still around in some way. Maybe the entities completely merged and share memories now. Or the spirit "took control" (or Cole let it take control) and was confused by Cole's memories, at least at first.

 

At the very least, the spirit somehow has Cole's memories as if the spirit lived them. I don't know how much demons/spirits can divine from living targets, but it just seems very...detailed. On the other hand we have Justice, but if I recall correctly, Justice didn't remember things about Kristof's life very well. (I'm probably wrong but didn't he have difficulty remembering stuff about his wife or something?)

 

 

^and then this. But he's physical? but isn't decaying like justice, so not a corpse? And he can completely vanish/teleport/????. Cole you just need to stop being such an anomaly, for the sake of all of our sanity.

 

 

Edit: Earlier on in the thread I brought up him being a shade or ash wraith, which I still think is a possibility.

In Asunder it never mentions that Cole has any memories other than the one we saw. Granted, just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Which is why I feel he's a shade or some other sort of physical manifestation of a spirit. He only absorbed the memories the original Cole was traumatized by, and what was torturing him while dying, the ones that "called out to him" I'm assuming. The ones that leaked out, the ones that were the most prominent and "moved" him. Since we know spirits/demons can read and absorb memories and get confused when crossing the Veil... it's very likely.

He could also be a mixing of soul + spirit. I really wonder about that though, as there isn't a lot of lore on "souls" or whether they truly exist. All there is is the Chant, and you can't totally trust it.

I mostly just don't believe he's in the original Cole's body. I guess we don't have a definitive timeline on the original Cole but if it was the original Cole's body and it was more like a Wynne+Spirit type thing, wouldn't he be way younger? Like 15ish? I've got an AWFUL sense at following time though so if anyone actually knows the math...



#3710
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And I'll look down and whisper, "No."


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#3711
Faerah

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In Asunder it never mentions that Cole has any memories other than the one we saw. Granted, just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Which is why I feel he's a shade or some other sort of physical manifestation of a spirit. He only absorbed the memories the original Cole was traumatized by, and what was torturing him while dying, the ones that "called out to him" I'm assuming. The ones that leaked out, the ones that were the most prominent and "moved" him. Since we know spirits/demons can read and absorb memories and get confused when crossing the Veil... it's very likely.

He could also be a mixing of soul + spirit. I really wonder about that though, as there isn't a lot of lore on "souls" or whether they truly exist. All there is is the Chant, and you can't totally trust it.

I mostly just don't believe he's in the original Cole's body. I guess we don't have a definitive timeline on the original Cole but if it was the original Cole's body and it was more like a Wynne+Spirit type thing, wouldn't he be way younger? Like 15ish? I've got an AWFUL sense at following time though so if anyone actually knows the math...

Hm, I guess I sort of meant knowledge and memories. Like his view of how demons are definitely bad and that he was pretty sure he wasn't one, but at the same time wondered if Rhys was one tormenting him. I suppose he could have learned that from the mages around him instead of from the original Cole though. It just seemed more like it was ingrained, like being taught it in mass at the chantry or whatever the Thedas equivalent would be.

 

As for being 15, I vaguely remember somewhere it saying he was in the Spire for years. So at least 12ish when he got there + "years" + the year of knowing Rhys and murders. So we don't know for sure, mostly because we don't know for sure when the templars caught him, or how long "years" was.


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#3712
Fialka

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And he can completely vanish/teleport/????. Cole you just need to stop being such an anomaly, for the sake of all of our sanity. 
 
Edit: Earlier on in the thread I brought up him being a shade or ash wraith, which I still think is a possibility.


I don't think Cole actually physically vanishes, does he? The disappearing act is just a mind trick, one he begins to learn how to consciously use at the end of the book. And he doesn't actually teleport - I think it's more like, he can make people not notice that he walked by and took their keys and opened the door.

It does seem likely that he is something like a shade, in that he has a physical form. But why that physical forms behaves like a living body is still a mystery. I'm seriously digging this Solas character - hopefully we can gain some insight into Cole's nature through him.

#3713
Faerah

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I don't think Cole actually physically vanishes, does he? The disappearing act is just a mind trick, one he begins to learn how to consciously use at the end of the book. And he doesn't actually teleport - I think it's more like, he can make people not notice that he walked by and took their keys and opened the door.

It does seem likely that he is something like a shade, in that he has a physical form. But why that physical forms behaves like a living body is still a mystery. I'm seriously digging this Solas character - hopefully we can gain some insight into Cole's nature through him.

Specifically talking about the part after Lambert uses the Litany to dispell his invisibility, then beats him up, calls him a demon, and Cole just poofs away.



#3714
MCG

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I can imagine Cole's friendship being fairly easy to bolster in this game, at least you would think. He wishes to help people and wishes to do it in the best way possible, so long as you're not a horrible Inquisitor and treat him nicely he should be your best pal in no time.



#3715
Fialka

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Hmm... Yeah, I wondered about that too. But if I remember right, Lambert doesn't read the Litany or try to go after him, does he? I mean, it is possible as others suggested that by realizing what he was, he realized he could enter and leave the Fade at will, since Shades are able to do so as I understand.

Also, on an unrelated note, what is with the Templars/Chantry putting Circles in areas where the veil is thin, and continuing to execute their mages inside said Circles (which also thins the veil). You'd think they'd eventually have figured out thin veil = demons. Demons + mages = bad. Hm.

#3716
Roxy

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Hmm... Yeah, I wondered about that too. But if I remember right, Lambert doesn't read the Litany or try to go after him, does he? I mean, it is possible as others suggested that by realizing what he was, he realized he could enter and leave the Fade at will, since Shades are able to do so as I understand.

Also, on an unrelated note, what is with the Templars/Chantry putting Circles in areas where the veil is thin, and continuing to execute their mages inside said Circles (which also thins the veil). You'd think they'd eventually have figured out thin veil = demons. Demons + mages = bad. Hm.

 

I just finished the book a couple of days ago and yeah you are right Lambert didn't use it he just showed it to Cole and asked if he knew what it was.

 

Also I wonder myself why they put the circle near where a veil is thin too...not very smart. lol



#3717
Meeszy Alexy

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I just finished the book a couple of days ago and yeah you are right Lambert didn't use it he just showed it to Cole and asked if he knew what it was.

 

Also I wonder myself why they put the circle near where a veil is thin too...not very smart. lol

 

Lambert uses the Litany at the beginning of the fight to dispel Cole's invisibility. Cole fades away after the battle's over, moments after realising that he isn't real. I doubt Lambert predicted it. The reason why I don't think it was his regular invisibility is because Rhys would've still been able to see him, like he's always been able to, but he saw Cole fade away in front of him.

 

Kirkwall's veil is ridiculously thin, and yet they put a circle there, only to be surprised by all the demons and possessions that happen. The only explanation for Circles being there is that the people in charge weren't very smart.


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#3718
Fortlowe

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Why was Cole affected by the Litany, but Wynne/Faith wasn't?



#3719
ClassicBox

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I wonder if Cole has some how become, basically, a ghost? It is a belief that when you die your spirit/soul/whatever you want to call it gets sent to the Fade for a short while, correct? (At least I recall Wynne saying something like that in Origins, my memory sucks.)

 

Sooo, put on your tinfoil hats for this;

 

What if there was a shade feeding off of Cole before he died. But when he did die, his spirit/soul/whatever got attached to the demon somehow? Taking on the persona of Cole (essentially the spirit) but the form of the shade. A living ghost if you will?

 

Okay, crazy theory done. tumblr_m9gckmwinS1qzckow.gif



#3720
Kisari

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Hm, I guess I sort of meant knowledge and memories. Like his view of how demons are definitely bad and that he was pretty sure he wasn't one, but at the same time wondered if Rhys was one tormenting him. I suppose he could have learned that from the mages around him instead of from the original Cole though. It just seemed more like it was ingrained, like being taught it in mass at the chantry or whatever the Thedas equivalent would be.

 

As for being 15, I vaguely remember somewhere it saying he was in the Spire for years. So at least 12ish when he got there + "years" + the year of knowing Rhys and murders. So we don't know for sure, mostly because we don't know for sure when the templars caught him, or how long "years" was.

Ah, yes. I assumed he learned it by listening to templars, watching the mage's classes and the fear that was instilled in him from original Cole. I can't remember but doesn't his dad call him a demon for being a mage? That could have also simply been the nightmare talking. But yes that could go either way in terms of how he learned that. He also could have learned it from Rhys. They also have a Chantry in the Circle don't they? He could have watched/listened in on those too.

Really I guess it's all a big question mark haha.

Okay yeah. I assumed he'd be younger cause a lot of people are claiming he's about 15ish years old and I've never been certain where they got that so I just assumed it was stated somewhere.

 

I just finished the book a couple of days ago and yeah you are right Lambert didn't use it he just showed it to Cole and asked if he knew what it was.

 

Also I wonder myself why they put the circle near where a veil is thin too...not very smart. lol

 

 

Hmm... Yeah, I wondered about that too. But if I remember right, Lambert doesn't read the Litany or try to go after him, does he? I mean, it is possible as others suggested that by realizing what he was, he realized he could enter and leave the Fade at will, since Shades are able to do so as I understand.

Also, on an unrelated note, what is with the Templars/Chantry putting Circles in areas where the veil is thin, and continuing to execute their mages inside said Circles (which also thins the veil). You'd think they'd eventually have figured out thin veil = demons. Demons + mages = bad. Hm.

 

Lambert uses the Litany at the beginning of the fight to dispel Cole's invisibility. Cole fades away after the battle's over, moments after realising that he isn't real. I doubt Lambert predicted it. The reason why I don't think it was his regular invisibility is because Rhys would've still been able to see him, like he's always been able to, but he saw Cole fade away in front of him.

 

Kirkwall's veil is ridiculously thin, and yet they put a circle there, only to be surprised by all the demons and possessions that happen. The only explanation for Circles being there is that the people in charge weren't very smart.

Meeszy explained it but just to specify this point, cause Lambert does use it...
To quote Asunder from page 457:

"Invisibility is an interesting trick, I'll give you that. Of course, every trick is worthless once the truth is revealed." He put away the vial... and took out a small book. It was an odd thing, the size of his palm and bound in shiny gold. The man opened it and began reading aloud. The words were old, Ancient Tevinter... almost a chant, really. ... Then something changed. The tingle of magic, pricking along his neck. It swept through the passage like a wind, and with it went the shroud that hid them. Cole gasped in shock.

Lambert throws the book to the side, and beats the crap outta Cole. After he's done with him he picks the book back up and then simply shows it to him and calls him a demon. Then Cole *poofs* after realizing he "isn't real".

 

I wonder if Cole has some how become, basically, a ghost? It is a belief that when you die your spirit/soul/whatever you want to call it gets sent to the Fade for a short while, correct? (At least I recall Wynne saying something like that in Origins, my memory sucks.)

 

Sooo, put on your tinfoil hats for this;

 

What if there was a shade feeding off of Cole before he died. But when he did die, his spirit/soul/whatever got attached to the demon somehow? Taking on the persona of Cole (essentially the spirit) but the form of the shade. A living ghost if you will?

 

Okay, crazy theory done. tumblr_m9gckmwinS1qzckow.gif

It's possible. I don't think Cole is a normal circumstance. If the world of Thedas has souls I think it's a good theory. ^^
 

 

Why was Cole affected by the Litany, but Wynne/Faith wasn't?

In Asunder? Wynne isn't around during the fight till after Cole *poofs*. Therefore she wasn't in the area when it was used.

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#3721
thetinyevil

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Poor Cole. 


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#3722
Hanako Ikezawa

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Why was Cole affected by the Litany, but Wynne/Faith wasn't?

Why wasn't Uldred affected by it? We know there was a demon in him. The only thing it stopped was demons possessing new people. Fade entities already in people don't seem to be affected. 


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#3723
Roxy

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Lambert uses the Litany at the beginning of the fight to dispel Cole's invisibility. Cole fades away after the battle's over, moments after realising that he isn't real. I doubt Lambert predicted it. The reason why I don't think it was his regular invisibility is because Rhys would've still been able to see him, like he's always been able to, but he saw Cole fade away in front of him.
 
Kirkwall's veil is ridiculously thin, and yet they put a circle there, only to be surprised by all the demons and possessions that happen. The only explanation for Circles being there is that the people in charge weren't very smart.


Ah okay... must have forgotten that part. : /

#3724
KirstyLionheart

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Why wasn't Uldred affected by it? We know there was a demon in him. The only thing it stopped was demons possessing new people. Fade entities already in people don't seem to be affected. 

 

"Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons. ...  The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late."

 

- Not sure if this was mentioned before, but looks like it's just a disruption spell to only counter the forms of mind control etc. Once in the body, it is useless. Why it doesn't affect a possessed human though, I have no idea. Do they use the power of the physical form to resist? Or the host's mind/thoughts/willpower? Or are they messed up enough to almost convince themselves that the host body has become them for a time, therefore the Litany has no effect on "humans"?

 

EDIT - All of what I just said could also explain why it didn't work immediately on Cole.. the demon was somewhat aware of the disruption magic, but he still believed he was real Cole/maybehuman (in actual fact he didn't know what he was) at that point in time. It's only when he realised he wasn't that he disappeared. Perhaps sheer belief that you're a physical being and using that form or willpower is enough to resist?


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#3725
Gervaise

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Once we use the Litany in DAO the demon has already transformed and revealed itself.   It already totally possesses Uldred so the Litany would have no affect on freeing him.   If it did, then Wynne need only have used the Litany to free Pharamond instead of entering the Fade to confront the demon.

 

What the Litany does in Asunder is block whatever magic Cole is using to make himself invisible because effectively it is a form of mind control rather than total possession.   The Litany does not make Cole disappear, that occurs when he realises he is not "real".  

 

What we don't know and will no doubt be explained in DAI is how Cole came back at the end and whether the Cole we meet is still effectively the same Cole that knew Rhys in Asunder or whether he is now something different.