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[Grieving Natashina]

Wild thought: Maybe, just maybe the lore has evolved and the views that we were given (Spirit=good/Demon=bad) are not that simple.  The range of personalities among spirits is probably a lot more varied than that.  I think this is only the beginning of a new section in the Fade lore.  After all, we haven't had an expert on hand quite like Solas before, and I think we'll be seeing more of the "grey" aligned spirits in the future.

 

Regarding the Litany: I think the Litany works on Cole because it might work on all spirits that aren't in a host of some kind.  The lore does state that the most good aligned spirits tend to stay away from the Material Realm, up to the point where they are very rarely seen.  Demons, on the other hand, tend to yearn for the flesh and are the ones that are causing the most trouble.  So a spell that could disrupt blood and demonic magic might very well work on spirits (like Cole) as well.

[nightcobra]

Lambert uses the Litany at the beginning of the fight to dispel Cole's invisibility. Cole fades away after the battle's over, moments after realising that he isn't real. I doubt Lambert predicted it. The reason why I don't think it was his regular invisibility is because Rhys would've still been able to see him, like he's always been able to, but he saw Cole fade away in front of him.

 

Kirkwall's veil is ridiculously thin, and yet they put a circle there, only to be surprised by all the demons and possessions that happen. The only explanation for Circles being there is that the people in charge weren't very smart.

 

 

I'd say maybe the circles were made in locations where the veil was normal/strong at the time of their construction but in time the large amount of mages in a small restricted place weakens the veil surrounding the circle with all the magic, forced attempted possessions(harrowings) being done and all.

that can't be good for the veil.

 

 

Maybe that's one of the reasons the dalish seem to have less of a problem with abominations, with them being nomads and all.

[Fortlowe]

The Litany was used in the fight against Uldred. Wynne, was there. Why didn't the Litany affect affect her, but it did affect Cole?

[Fialka]

The Litany was used in the fight against Uldred. Wynne, was there. Why didn't the Litany affect affect her, but it did affect Cole?

From the codex:

 

"The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late"

 

It doesn't affect Wynne because she neither uses nor is affected by mind control.  She is already possessed, but she's not under control - even if she were, she'd have been under the spirit's control since before we meet her in the tower so it would be too late for the Litany to have any effect.  It doesn't affect Uldred either, just keeps those mages in the Harrowing Chamber from turning into abominations/turning on you (can't remember exactly which, it's been a long time since I fought that battle and wasn't able to use the Litany in time).

[Fialka]

Wild thought: Maybe, just maybe the lore has evolved and the views that we were given (Spirit=good/Demon=bad) are not that simple.  The range of personalities among spirits is probably a lot more varied than that.  I think this is only the beginning of a new section in the Fade lore.  After all, we haven't had an expert on hand quite like Solas before, and I think we'll be seeing more of the "grey" aligned spirits in the future.

 

Regarding the Litany: I think the Litany works on Cole because it might work on all spirits that aren't in a host of some kind.  The lore does state that the most good aligned spirits tend to stay away from the Material Realm, up to the point where they are very rarely seen.  Demons, on the other hand, tend to yearn for the flesh and are the ones that are causing the most trouble.  So a spell that could disrupt blood and demonic magic might very well work on spirits (like Cole) as well.

Absolutely.  Then again, much of what we are told about spirits and demons and the Fade is a variation of what the Chantry tells us, or what the Circles teach (which is largely colored by Chantry belief, I think).  And sure they get some of it right, but they don't seem to have the whole story, and as many religions tend to historically do, the Chantry doesn't exactly encourage courses of study that would prove them wrong, preferring to slap a 'forbidden' tag on it instead.  Not that i dispute that demons and spirits have the potential to be incredibly dangerous, I don't think it's as simple as the lore revealed so far in the games has led us to believe.

[Fortlowe]

From the codex:

 

"The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late"

 

It doesn't affect Wynne because she neither uses nor is affected by mind control.  She is already possessed, but she's not under control - even if she were, she'd have been under the spirit's control since before we meet her in the tower so it would be too late for the Litany to have any effect.  It doesn't affect Uldred either, just keeps those mages in the Harrowing Chamber from turning into abominations/turning on you (can't remember exactly which, it's been a long time since I fought that battle and wasn't able to use the Litany in time).

So the Litany only affects the use of blood magic?

[Faerah]

So the Litany only affects the use of blood magic?

It affects blood magic and demon magic. But blood magic is taught by demons originally, so it's probably the same type of magic. It just seems that mortals have to fuel it with blood letting.

[Fortlowe]

It affects blood magic and demon magic. But blood magic is taught by demons originally, so it's probably the same type of magic. It just seems that mortals have to fuel it with blood letting.

And it dispelled Cole?

[Fialka]

So the Litany only affects the use of blood magic?

That's my understanding of it, yes... or specifically, spells that control the mind or will of another, spells that only blood magic can power (that we know of).  Demons don't really use blood magic, but they are able to possess/control others.  I suspect the Litany could work on Somniari as well, at least in theory - the trouble with that is that Somniari don't need to be anywhere in the vicinity of the people they're controlling to do so.  

 

It worked on Cole because his 'invisibilty' is just him using mind control to make people believe they don't see him, i think.  Not sure what the 'poof gone' thing was all about with Lambert - I'm still not sure if that happened as a result of the Litany being used on him, or if he 'left' of his own accord.

[Meeszy Alexy]

And it dispelled Cole?

 

Correct. However, for all we know it could work on spirits as well, spirit magic and demonic magic could be one and the same. But the fact that the Litany dispelled Cole's invisibility (among with his serial murders) is why I'm not ruling out the possibility of him being a demon. Regardless of which one he is (assuming he even fits in either category), he's unique either way.

 

Edit: It also implies that Cole's invisibility is actually a form of mind control, making people believe that he's not there.

[Fialka]

And it dispelled Cole?

I'm not so sure it did, else he'd have disappeared as soon as the Litany was used.  I think he left because he realized what he was, and he realized he could?  Maybe? Or his being visible at all is a form of mind control as well? 

[Faerah]

And it dispelled Cole?

I don't think so, no. Lambert used the litany to dispell his invisibility. After that there were two or three pages worth of Lambert beating Cole to a pulp and talking to him. After that Cole disappears completely. I don't think the litany had anything to do with it, pretty sure it was Cole's decision to go.

[Fialka]

I don't think so, no. Lambert used the litany to dispell his invisibility. After that there were two or three pages worth of Lambert beating Cole to a pulp and talking to him. After that Cole disappears completely. I don't think the litany had anything to do with it, pretty sure it was Cole's decision to go.

Yeah, I'm leaning more toward this.  Especially as it sounds like he can disappear and reappear at will during battle in Inquisition, so it's an ability he's always had but couldn't control until he understood what he was.  Hopefully when we learn more about Cole in the game, it'll give us some insight into what really happened there.

[Gervaise]

The Litany dispelled his ability to control minds that made him appear invisible.   Imshael does the same in Masked Empire.    He controls the mind of the guard to free Michel and then controls minds not to see him as he walks through the camp, effectively making him invisible.     The ability to control minds is something that Spirits/Demons have naturally and that mages can acquire through blood magic, allowing them to utilise the skill of a demon.  

 

The Litany did not make Cole himself disappear/dispel.   What did that was the realisation of what he was.    What is more of a mystery is what made him come back?

[Gervaise]

Actually I think Imshael may give some clue to the last bit as well.    He was held in some sort of spirit trap, when he didn't seem to have a real corporeal presence since he made no imprint on the grass.   Then he was released and had actual substance without any sort of host body.    Then he possessed someone and clearly taking their form, before being persuaded to relinquish his hold on them, when he returned to his original form.

 

So there seems no requirement for a spirit to have an actual mortal body or corpse to occupy for them to remain in the material world or for them to appear to have actual substance that you can touch, see and smell.  

[Fortlowe]

Is there an example of a benevolent spirit using mind control?

[azarhal]

 

So there seems no requirement for a spirit to have an actual mortal body or corpse to occupy for them to remain in the material world or for them to appear to have actual substance that you can touch, see and smell.  

 

That is mentioned in the lore already. Powerful spirits do not need a physical host in the mortal world. Spirit need host to cross over the veil (when there is no tears) or because they are too weak to make their own body. That body can just be made out of dust (like dust wraith) or more consistent because they are even more powerful. Once a spirit is too weak it simply get naturally dismissed and returned to the Fade (that's what happened when they are "killed").

 

It just mean that Cole is probably a really powerful spirit.

[nightcobra]

That is mentioned in the lore already. Powerful spirits do not need a physical host in the mortal world. Spirit need host to cross over the veil (when there is no tears) or because they are too weak to make their own body. That body can just be made out of dust (like dust wraith) or more consistent because they are even more powerful. Once a spirit is too weak it simply get naturally dismissed and returned to the Fade (that's what happened when they are "killed").

 

It just mean that Cole is probably a really powerful spirit.

 

I'd like to think that in Asunder the entity we know as "Cole" is separated between its ego and id, with the conscious Cole being his ego and his "instinct/ability to feed off of emotions(good or bad)/ability to make himself invisible/locked memories" being the manisfestation of his subconscious. Then throughout Asunder, Cole is gradually merging these two halves.

 

 

It could be that at the time of real Cole's death, something went wrong with the entity that was beside him, perhaps due to crossing the veil? i don't know, but I think the entity known as Cole was never fully formed/realized until Asunder's ending.

[Fialka]

Is there an example of a benevolent spirit using mind control?

I see where this line of questioning is going, but... whatever, I'll bite.

 

No, there is not.  That we know of.  YET.

 

To be fair though, we have encountered malevolent demons who didn't use it either - the Sloth-bear we meet during our Harrowing in the Mage Origins for example, though I think he does tell us he would if he felt like it or something along those lines. And how many benevolent spirits have we actually encountered in the games (not counting wisps and such that are probably not intelligent or powerful enough to do such a thing even if they want to)?  Three?

 

Let's see, there's 'Valor,' who we also meet during our Harrowing as young mages, but it's hard to guage much about him from one conversation,  There's 'Faith' (going off what is assumed), who possesses Wynne - and it's powerful, sure, but since even Wynne doesn't know (according to what she's willing to tell us - her portrayal in Asunder leads me to believe she was a lot more cunning than she ever let on to our Warden) anything about it's personality we don't know how intelligent it actually is or what it's capable of.  And there's 'Justice,' who I'll go ahead and add to the benevolent category since he doesn't become more... nuanced, I'll say (I don't see him as purely malevolent even after he possesses Anders), until after The Merger.  He doesn't use mind control, but even as 'Vengeance' he probably sees that sort of thing as beneath him.

 

My point being, spirits are an even larger mystery than demons are, and we only have three we've met so far.  Unless there's mention of others in the canon books/comics - I've only read Asunder and a handful of chapters of The Masked Empire.  We don't know what they're capable of at all, and all we know is that the only real dividing line between them and demons is that they have little interest in the material world.

 

Edit:  What I'm trying to say is, I don't think Cole using mind control is any sort of proof that he's inherently evil.  Demonic in nature?  Possibly.  But blood mages can use those types of spells too, and they are not demons, nor are they all (most are, but not all) malevolent.  And Somniari can control minds as well, and they don't fit into either category.  I think Cole is just a whole other animal.

[Fortlowe]

Why didn't Cole leave the Spire before encountering Rhys?

[Meeszy Alexy]

Why didn't Cole leave the Spire before encountering Rhys?

 

There wasn't a reason for him to, there wasn't anywhere for him to go. The tower was all he really knew. He didn't know anything of the world outside the tower, and Cole was almost as scared of the outside world as he was of the templars. As far as we know from Asunder, he was content just watching the mages go about their daily lives before Rhys found him.

[Hellion Rex]

http://kelgrid.tumblr.com/

[Fortlowe]

Why did Cole start...helping mages in the dungeons?

[Joe25]

I just don't buy it. I don't think it's Cole's body.

Cole could have taken Lambert;s body and used it to form the body he has now. Lambert is still missing.