6175 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Did the Baroness require a host?

 

Wasn't the Baroness's body still the host?

[Grieving Natashina]

I guess I'm more "all in or out" on this. There's a side of me that wants to see all content, and then another side that sees nothing wrong with being much like Lambert. It kind of annoyed me how that story made him out to be the big bad villain, when all I saw was someone with standard chantry beliefs, while the rest of the world was super "openminded" about everything. I'd like to play a character like his some time. Not just be someone who keeps Cole close, but distrusts him.

I'm betting you'll get that chance in Inquisition.  They did say you could dismiss most (if not all) of the companions, so you could do that if you wanted to.  They've let players play the "Chantry order above all" PCs before, so I don't see why it would stop now.  If anything, you could play as a Lambert-type character and probably without too many issues.

 

As long as you can live with me calling you Big Nose from there on out, in "honor" of Lambert.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I really don't see anymore reason why they should stop having spirit companions than them stop having elves or dwarves. The beings of the Fade are a part of the DA universe just as much as any of the mortal races are. 

[Fortlowe]

I know you didn't ask me, but I think the only way to be impartial about him is forget everything the Chantry teaches completely. Just for a start. No small thing. To question all rules and fears in the world when it comes to the nature of spirits. To investigate things, before saying a spirit or demon's presence is good or bad. You must even be open to the notion that demons are "good to have around".

 

Anything short of that and your course is clear. You should act as Lambert did. If you believe spirits and demons don't belong here, then Cole doesn't either.

I don't subscribe to the Chantry's information about Fade creatures.

 

I'll lay it out though (had a few more questions but, aw well):

 

Point one:

• Cole is a spirit on the mortal side of the Veil that does not require a host.
• The Baroness is a spirit on the Mortal Side of the Veil that did not require a host.
• Shades are spirits on the mortal side of the Veil that do not require hosts.
• The Baroness use the lifeforce of a livin thing to cross the Veil.
• The mage child Cole died in the company of the Fade creature Cole.
• The Baroness possesses all the memories of the human Baroness.
• Cole possesses all or most of the memories of the child Cole.

Cole most likely used the life of the boy Cole, to cross the Veil.

 

Point two:

 

• Cole is affected by the Litany of Adrala.
• The Litany affects only blood magic/mind control as evidenced by Wynne's (possessed by Faith) immunity.
• Shades use mind control to make traps to feed on the minds of those that are ensnared.
• Shades never willingly leave the traps.
• Cole doesn't leave the Spire until it is motivated by Rhys to do so.
• Shades use mind control to convince their victims to allow them to feed.
• Cole convinces imprisoned mages that dying is preferable to pain.

Cole has a lot in common with Shades.

[Grieving Natashina]

Just to be clear though, I don't even want to say I'm a heavy Chantry supporter per se.

 

It's funny, but it's more about normalizing the world to me. Making it more like our real world. It seems the Chantry's main wish is that their world just be more like ours. I can't help but wanting to fight for that a bit. How's that for fantasy? lol.

Haha, it's quite alright.  I'm in the middle myself.  When it comes to the Chantry (this will be brief) I really like what they are supposed to stand for, outside of the Circles (which I have mixed feelings about.)  I just don't like what it has become.

 

I do hope players can express fear/anger/doubt about Cole's presence.  I personally like the kid, but I hope that the RP choices are there to show those more negative emotions.  I can understand why some players (or some characters; my dwarf quizzy isn't going to necessarily feel the same as my human would) aren't thrilled with yet another spirit companion.  As you said though, at least his status as largely "unknown," he's likely to have a big part in the main storyline.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't subscribe to the Chantry's information about Fade creatures.

 

I'll lay it out though (had a few more questions but, aw well):

 

Point one:

• Cole is a spirit on the mortal side of the Veil that does not require a host.
• The Baroness is a spirit on the Mortal Side of the Veil that did not require a host.
• Shades are spirits on the mortal side of the Veil that do not require hosts.
• The Baroness use the lifeforce of a livin thing to cross the Veil.
• The mage child Cole died in the company of the Fade creature Cole.
• The Baroness possesses all the memories of the human Baroness.
• Cole possesses all or most of the memories of the child Cole.

Cole most likely used the life of the boy Cole, to cross the Veil.

 

Point two:

 

• Cole is affected by the Litany of Adrala.
• The Litany affects only blood magic/mind control as evidenced by Wynne's (possessed by Faith) immunity.
• Shades use mind control to make traps to feed on the minds of those that are ensnared.
• Shades never willingly leave the traps.
• Cole doesn't leave the Spire until it is motivated by Rhys to do so.
• Shades use mind control to convince their victims to allow them to feed.
• Cole convinces imprisoned mages that dying is preferable to pain.

Cole has a lot in common with Shades.

First, the Baroness was a Pride Demon, not a Shade. 

Second, how could Cole use the boy Cole's life force to cross the Veil yet be there when boy Cole was still alive? 

[Grieving Natashina]

First, the Baroness was a Pride Demon, not a Shade. 

Second, how could Cole use the boy Cole's life force to cross the Veil yet be there when boy Cole was still alive? 

I don't know how anyone can forget that.  Hardest fight in Awakening for me.  Even the dragons, the Architect and the Mother didn't give me half as much trouble.

[Fortlowe]

The Fade creatures are all the same I think. Varying in personality and power perhaps, much like mortals, but the rules for crossing the Fade are probably universal for them all. The child Cole had to sleep while in the dungeon. Sleeping is dreaming. Dreaming is visiting the Fade where the Fade creature Cole was.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Fade creatures are all the same I think. varying in personality and power perhaps, much like mortals, but the rules for crossing the Fade are probably universal for them all. The child cole had to sleep while in the dungeon. Sleeping is dreaming. Dreaming is visiting the Fade where the Fade creature Cole was.

This doesn't explain how Cole crossed over. If he went through boy Cole to get across, that's called possession.

[Fortlowe]

This doesn't explain how Cole crossed over. If he went through boy Cole to get across, that's called possession.

But it isn't possession. Cole is only the spirit Cole. Not the boy. The Baroness that crossed the Veil wasn't the Baroness. Remember the human's body was destroyed in a fire. That was only the pride demon we fought in the blackmarsh. And the extremely powerful pride demon still required fuel to cross the veil. How did Cole do it?

[Fortlowe]

Wasn't the Baroness's body still the host?

No. The body was destroyed in a fire the villagers set.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But it isn't possession. Cole is only the spirit Cole. Not the boy. The Baroness that crossed the Veil wasn't the Baroness. Remember the human's body was destroyed in a fire. That was only the pride demon we fought in the blackmarsh. And the extremely powerful pride demon still required fuel to cross the veil. How did Cole do it?

You know the Baroness' body was destroyed in the fire how? The villagers never saw it because they were all sent to the Fade with the Baroness.

[Fortlowe]

"The Baroness met her end when her subjects turned on her and burned down her mansion. With one last spell, the Baroness pulled all of their spirits into the Fade, trapping them in a nightmarish version of the Blackmarsh itself."

 

-Dragon Age wiki

[Grieving Natashina]

But it isn't possession. Cole is only the spirit Cole. Not the boy. The Baroness that crossed the Veil wasn't the Baroness. Remember the human's body was destroyed in a fire. That was only the pride demon we fought in the blackmarsh. And the extremely powerful pride demon still required fuel to cross the veil. How did Cole do it?

While the Veil is thin in Blackmarsh, most Circles in Thedas are extremely thin by nature, far more so than that one area.  The more blood and torture, the weaker the Veil.  The White Spire used to be home to slave dungeons.  The Pit itself is huge, with thousands of cages, and I'm betting that blood sacrifices by the Tevinters probably took place daily back when they used the place.

 

In the present day, abuse does go on there of all kinds (I consider some of that abuse reaching to the level of torture,) and then there is just the usual danger that magic itself has on thinning the Veil.  Combine that to the damage done by Tevinter in the past and the Veil is barely even there at all.   As is stated by the lore, if the Veil is thin enough, a spirit or demon can cross over without needing as host.  A Spirit of Compassion, drawn to a crying child in the dark, is not that big of a stretch. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"The Baroness met her end when her subjects turned on her and burned down her mansion. With one last spell, the Baroness pulled all of their spirits into the Fade, trapping them in a nightmarish version of the Blackmarsh itself."

 

-Dragon Age wiki

Yes, her mansion burned down. Nowhere does it say she was killed by the fire since 'met her end' can mean either when the Pride Demon took over and/or her being sent sent through the Veil. 

[Fortlowe]

While the Veil is thin in Blackmarsh, most Circles in Thedas are extremely thin by nature.  The more blood and torture, the weaker the Veil.  The White Spire used to be home to slave dungeons.  The Pit itself is huge, with thousands of cages, and I'm betting that blood sacrifices by the Tevinters probably took place daily back when they used the place.

 

In the present day, abuse does go on there of all kinds (I consider some of that abuse reaching to the level of torture,) and then there is just the usual danger that magic itself has on thinning the Veil.  Combine that to the damage done by Tevinter in the past and the Veil is barely even there at all.   As is stated by the lore, if the Veil is thin enough, a spirit or demon can cross over without needing as host.  A Spirit of Compassion, drawn to a crying child in the dark, is not that big of a stretch. 

Fair enough. However, where are the other spirits? Malicious spirits should be pouring out of the Spire like nobody's business if a the Veil is that thin. My interpretation of the veil being thin is that a spirit can cross over when pushed or pulled, or if the issue is generally forced by something more than its own volition, but otherwise they are still stuck on the other side. Even then, it appears to be mostly a matter of crossing over in immediate need of a host.

 

So Cole crossing over as a spirit without the need of a host is not likely without a catalyst. The boy.

[Fortlowe]

Yes, her mansion burned down. Nowhere does it say she was killed by the fire since 'met her end' can mean either when the Pride Demon took over and/or her being sent sent through the Veil. 

It says, "The baroness met her end..."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It says, "The baroness met her end..."

Which as my post says can mean either when the Pride Demon took over and/or she was sent to the Fade. Both result in her having met her end since she was no longer her and no longer in the World of the Living. 

 

For example, Uldred met his end when the Pride Demon possessed him, not when the Warden slayed the possessed body. 

[LobselVith8]

Wasn't the Baroness's body still the host?

 

The Baroness seemed to pull everyone in the village into the Fade with her when they tried to burn her down in her manor. Justice says she is no longer a mortal - not like the villagers she kept trapped, or The Warden. "There was such a mortal once. But now? Now that is a demon of Pride. She assumed that role long ago to feed from the mortals she trapped."

 

Of course, if the human Baroness became a creature of Pride, and the Spirit of Justice became Vengeance, I don't see what inhibits Cole from changing his own nature.

[nightcobra]

The Baroness seemed to pull everyone in the village into the Fade with her when they tried to burn her down in her manor. Justice says she is no longer a mortal - not like the villagers she kept trapped, or The Warden. "There was such a mortal once. But now? Now that is a demon of Pride. She assumed that role long ago to feed from the mortals she trapped."

 

Of course, if the human Baroness became a creature of Pride, and the Spirit of Justice became Vengeance, I don't see what inhibits Cole from changing his own nature.

 

Since the fade itself is a ever changing place, it stands to reason that so do its denizens, spirits and demons. Perhaps demons can change from hunger to pride to lust to rage depending on what they find preferable to eat/devour at the time

[Grieving Natashina]

 

So Cole crossing over as a spirit without the need of a host is not likely without a catalyst. The boy.

Something about that spirit was drawn to that place, and it's been shown in the lore that you don't need to have a spirit pushed/pulled through the Fade.  They just need to want to go through that section and have the strength of will to do it.  The reason why I think the place isn't just crawling with demons is it's probably mostly warded against most evil spirits.  I'm sure they have some protections in place, but why would anyone extent those protections all the way down in to the Pit?  Almost no one goes down there and the templars sure don't seem worried about the few mages that do end up there.

 

With the boy Cole, I think was a sominari and that's why this spirit was drawn to the child. That's been my guess since I read the book.

 

Despite insistence to the contrary, there is no evidence that the "spirit" Cole killed, possessed or otherwise harmed the real Cole in any way.  Somehow, just like with Justice, after the boy died, Cole got stuck here.  We got to witness why and how Justice got stuck, but we don't know about Cole.  If you don't like him, that's fine, but you don't need to try to use the lore to justify your dislike.

[The Elder King]

The spirit explicitely said that he was with the boy when he died, when talking to Lambert. He had no reason to lie to Lambert since he was going to kill him. How did he stay with the boy until his death if he used him to cross the veil?
Plus, as far as I know spirits can't use humans as 'fuel' to cross the Veil (and no, the baroness thing is different. The Used a living creature tha was INSIDE the Fade. There is absolutely nothing in the games or lore that shown a creature of the Fade can do such things when the mortal is in Thedas) . A mage can do it (though it isn't necessary to kill a person), but spirits can. The only way for a spirit to cross the way directly in a normal situation (again, without a living creature inside the Fade to be used), is to possess someone.

[Fortlowe]

Something about that spirit was drawn to that place, and it's been shown in the lore that you don't need to have a spirit pushed/pulled through the Fade.  They just need to want to go through that section and have the strength of will to do it.  The reason why I think the place isn't just crawling with demons is it's probably mostly warded against most evil spirits.  I'm sure they have some protections in place, but why would anyone extent those protections all the way down in to the Pit?  Almost no one goes down there and the templars sure don't seem worried about the few mages that do end up there.

 

With the boy Cole, I think was a sominari and that's why this spirit was drawn to the child. That's been my guess since I read the book.

 

Despite insistence to the contrary, there is no evidence that the "spirit" Cole killed, possessed or otherwise harmed the real Cole in any way.  Somehow, just like with Justice, after the boy died, Cole got stuck here.  We got to witness why and how Justice got stuck, but we don't know about Cole.  If you don't like him, that's fine, but you don't need to try to use the lore to justify your dislike.

Can you give an example of the phenomenon you are describing. Only two examples come to my mind comparable to Cole: the Guardian of the urn and the Baroness. We don't know how the Guardian came to be but the Baroness is a verifiable case of reference.

 

Also, Somniari can shape the Fade like a spirit, but not the mortal realm so unless there is a specific example of a Somniari causing a Fade spirit to cross the veil unassisted and without the need of a host that I am unaware of, the boy Cole being Somniari (which in and of itself is speculative) doesn't change the rules we are at least aware of. So far as we know, for a Fade creature to cross the Veil without need of a host, someone has to die.