6175 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

Rendon Howe was useful to Bryce Cousland. Bartrand was useful to Hawke. I'm entirely certain Cole would be very useful to the Inquisitor. Utility isn't the question. Worth is. Is it worth it to have something like Cole involved, even given its tremendously useful talents? I don't think so. Not unless the Inquisitor doesn't find out what Cole has done.

[Eveangaline]

Man, I'm taking him to redcliffe, I don't want anyone to die and I can't wait to see Cole take out demons to keep all of us alive

[Falon'Din]

I'm loving Cole's character more and more everyday!

[Zellya]

Rendon Howe was useful to Bryce Cousland. Bartrand was useful to Hawke. I'm entirely certain Cole would be very useful to the Inquisitor. Utility isn't the question. Worth is. Is it worth it to have something like Cole involved, even given its tremendously useful talents? I don't think so. Not unless the Inquisitor doesn't find out what Cole has done.

 

Your analogy with Howe would be better made in reference to Loghain than Bryce. It can be assumed Loghain knew on some level what kind of man Howe was and weighed his usefulness in favor of the man's character flaws, especially if the Warden was a Cousland (Loghain mentions that Cailan told him about the promise to avenge the warden's family at Ostagar). Bryce Cousland had been friends with Rendon Howe since the occupation, usefulness or worth wasn't in question there. 

 

As for your point, I respectfully disagree, but I think you already know that xD 

[Falon'Din]

Your analogy with Howe would be better made in reference to Loghain than Bryce. It can be assumed Loghain knew on some level what kind of man Howe was and weighed his usefulness in favor of the man's character flaws, especially if the Warden was a Cousland (Loghain mentions that Cailan told him about the promise to avenge the warden's family at Ostagar). Bryce Cousland had been friends with Rendon Howe since the occupation, usefulness or worth wasn't in question there.

As for your point, I respectfully disagree, but I think you already know that xD

Have to agree with that. Howes betrayal was a big "Hello friend, I'm just visiting to kill you and your family!"

Cole is... Well he will be "useful" no doubt. But he is a person too, not just my handy wrench, so it'll be nice getting to know him.

[Slukers]

Hi! I'm poking over from the Varric thread, and wanted to say hi!

 

We are playing the Petquisition! game right now, if anyone is interested! 

 

Group submissions are accepted, so I thought it would be fun for all of the character threads to make their own group chart!

 

Check it out if you are interested, and be sure to post a group chart if you want in the OP!

 

http://forum.bioware...ition-the-game/

[Falon'Din]

Rendon Howe was useful to Bryce Cousland. Bartrand was useful to Hawke. I'm entirely certain Cole would be very useful to the Inquisitor. Utility isn't the question. Worth is. Is it worth it to have something like Cole involved, even given its tremendously useful talents? I don't think so. Not unless the Inquisitor doesn't find out what Cole has done.

Most definitely worth it. I'm gonna put that kid to work! Cole will be doing more for me than all the inquisition combined!

Poor thing....

[KirstyLionheart]

Most definitely worth it. I'm gonna put that kid to work! Cole will be doing more for me than all the inquisition combined!

Poor thing....

 

Will he get lots of hugs in return?

[KirstyLionheart]

He would probably feel very uncomfortable if you tried to hug him. xD

 

Pfft... he'll be a hug machine by the time I'm done with him. (:

[Fortlowe]

Assuming Cole only started killing after contact with Rhys (an unlikely case), what was it that triggered the behavior? How does Cole initially make the connection between killing and not "falling through the cracks"? Doesn't that seem odd? Cole apparently finally finds someone that sees it. No killing involved thus far, presumably. Then Cole starts killing people to be feel alive. How does Cole arrive at the decision to kill?

 

The assumption is that it only killed those that wanted to die, of course (no I do not believe it is the case. yes it has been discussed). But wouldn't at  least as many have wanted to escape instead? If the purpose was mercy and or compassion, why didn't Cole try to help the ones that were just as miserable but not suicidal try to escape?

[Aremce]

I'd like to add a few thoughts to this (which probably must have been mentioned before, even various times, and I'm sorry, but still).

 

"He can sense people's pain, which is actually what he was doing back in Asunder without realizing it, when he found the mages who were terrified and desperate enough to be able to see him." - Patrick Weekes, in the interview on the official website. That's how Cole was attracted to those people.

 

My guess is that the fact that human!Cole had killed his father could have given the spirit!Cole some sort of impression that killing is ... a solution? An escape? So he would have done the only thing he thought he could do to the prisoners. As a spirit he wouldn't know of morals and the value of life as living people would. In fact, he would know pretty much nothing besides being terribly confused. All he understood about being human at this point was through the eyes of a heavily traumatized boy, after all. It was something he had to learn (and did learn, which is pretty much a fact in Asunder as he has a sense of obligations, guilt, sympathy etc. and stops killing people - he doesn't even feel this need to do so anymore, actually).

 

About the thing with the murders only starting after Cole first met Rhys, I do believe that. Thinking about it logically - maybe he just wasn't aware that he could possibly interact with people. Maybe he didn't think he was real, so he couldn't develop the fear of loosing what he didn't even know he had. So, after he got a taste of how it is to be "real" and recognized, he must have begun to think about it. In my theory he then instinctively visited one of those people he was sensing and realized that they could see him. He knew that they were feeling terrible, pretty similiar to how the human!Cole had felt - so he wanted to do something. But what? He killed them. Felt that in this moments he was the most important person in the world to his victim, which made him not exactly feel good, but real. Thus, he was conditioned to go find one of those people he could sense and end their lifes in order to stop the horrible feeling of fading away. He needed to learn that there were other, better ways (and that killing defenseless people was wrong). Now he seems to think helping people is the way to go - or maybe he's again trying to follow the nature of the spirit he was before the whole incident. There's hoping that we'll find out in Inquisition.

 

So, in short: I just think Cole didn't know any better, as a spirit. Does that make it okay what he's done? No. But I think both Asunder and the info we have about Inquisition!Cole make it pretty clear that he has moved past that and is changing for the better. Whatever he is, he's capable to grow as a person. It's of course the right of everyone to not recruit him / kill him / whatever in their game, but I think it's also justifiable to do recruit him. It's not like we never had any morally questionable or outright dangerous companions before.

(After Anders, Cole seems actually pretty safe to me, tbh.)

[Zellya]

Assuming Cole only started killing after contact with Rhys (an unlikely case), what was it that triggered the behavior? How does Cole initially make the connection between killing and not "falling through the cracks"? Doesn't that seem odd? Cole apparently finally finds someone that sees it. No killing involved thus far, presumably. Then Cole starts killing people to be feel alive. How does Cole arrive at the decision to kill?

 

The assumption is that it only killed those that wanted to die, of course (no I do not believe it is the case. yes it has been discussed). But wouldn't at  least as many have wanted to escape instead? If the purpose was mercy and or compassion, why didn't Cole try to help the ones that were just as miserable but not suicidal try to escape?

 

Aremce already put most of my thoughts into words ( very eloquently, might I add, well done :3 ), but I feel like you're still basically viewing Cole like you would any other adult who had committed the same crimes. While Cole might have the intelligence of an adult, he does not have the same emotional and moral maturity, nor does he have the mindset of one. Honestly, his emotional quotient is likely more comparable to a four year old at the beginning of Asunder than the twelve year old version of the original Cole that David Gaider clearly compares him to. Yes, he does mature through the duration of Asunder and into Inquisition, but it's not entirely fair to judge his past actions based on his final mental state ( which is still likely not quite at the same maturity level as an adult yet, given Patrick Weekes' comments on twitter ). 

 

I could go on more since this relates to the degree I'm currently working on, but I'll leave it at that for now :3

[Aremce]

Aremce already put most of my thoughts into words ( very eloquently, might I add, well done :3 ), but I feel like you're still basically viewing Cole like you would any other adult who had committed the same crimes. While Cole might have the intelligence of an adult, he does not have the same emotional and moral maturity, nor does he have the mindset of one. Honestly, his emotional quotient is likely more comparable to a four year old at the beginning of Asunder than the twelve year old version of the original Cole that David Gaider clearly compares him to. Yes, he does mature through the duration of Asunder and into Inquisition, but it's not entirely fair to judge his past actions based on his final mental state ( which is still likely not quite at the same maturity level as an adult yet, given Patrick Weekes' comments on twitter ). 

 

I could go on more since this relates to the degree I'm currently working on, but I'll leave it at that for now :3

 

Thank you!

 

I don't know much about developmental psychology or psychology at all, but I agree that Cole doesn't seem to be even in the same state as a normal twelve year old at the beginning of Asunder (when it comes to the understanding of emotions and morals). And how could he - I doubt that human Cole could have been mentally normal after this childhood and there's nobody else from whom he could have learned. He does learn really fast then, though ... considering how much his character has developed in the short time during the events of Asunder, and between Asunder and Inquisition.

[Falon'Din]

Will he get lots of hugs in return?

Lots of hugs and a nice big gold star he can stick on his hat so everyone knows he's the favorite!

[Falon'Din]

Assuming Cole only started killing after contact with Rhys (an unlikely case), what was it that triggered the behavior? How does Cole initially make the connection between killing and not "falling through the cracks"? Doesn't that seem odd? Cole apparently finally finds someone that sees it. No killing involved thus far, presumably. Then Cole starts killing people to be feel alive. How does Cole arrive at the decision to kill?

The assumption is that it only killed those that wanted to die, of course (no I do not believe it is the case. yes it has been discussed). But wouldn't at least as many have wanted to escape instead? If the purpose was mercy and or compassion, why didn't Cole try to help the ones that were just as miserable but not suicidal try to escape?

Well, I know if I felt that I would disappear if I didn't stab someone's face of, I would be stabbing people's faces off... Just saying...

My point (I don't think I had one...) Is... Cole didn't go stab happy for funzies, it was more like, if I don't do this I'll "die". Is it wrong? Probably. He didn't know better. He doesn't even know what he is. So doing things in acts of desperation just seems like a creature trying to survive, and I can't fault this character that. But I have noticed it was in his nature to feel bad about it afterwards. and like my favorite dragon age quote says, "Evil doesn't have to worry about being good." And he does, all the time. And he tries to do good, now.

Actually, he kinda reminds me of Leliana a bit...

[Falon'Din]

I hope he can turn others invisible... I really wanna say my Inquisitor got a chance to sneak in Cullens room while he's changing his armor... And set his undies on fire...

I wanna prank the inquisition! (T___T)

[Zellya]

I hope he can turn others invisible... I really wanna say my Inquisitor got a chance to sneak in Cullens room while he's changing his armor... And set his undies on fire...

I wanna prank the inquisition! (T___T)

 

He can... (he did it with Rys and some of the others towards the end of the book) although I think it's less "invisibility" and more, "affecting the minds of those around you so that they don't notice you." In fact, that's what I suspect Cole's power may be more than true invisibility, just based on how it worked in the book.  

[twincast]

Assuming Cole only started killing after contact with Rhys (an unlikely case), what was it that triggered the behavior? How does Cole initially make the connection between killing and not "falling through the cracks"? Doesn't that seem odd? Cole apparently finally finds someone that sees it. No killing involved thus far, presumably. Then Cole starts killing people to be feel alive. How does Cole arrive at the decision to kill?
 
The assumption is that it only killed those that wanted to die, of course (no I do not believe it is the case. yes it has been discussed). But wouldn't at  least as many have wanted to escape instead? If the purpose was mercy and or compassion, why didn't Cole try to help the ones that were just as miserable but not suicidal try to escape?

 
...I already told you.
 

Spoiler

*sigh*
So a bit of a time line:

• The original Cole dies with the spirit "holding his hand", which shouldn't be taken literally. A comforting feeling in his hand from an incorporeal presence is more like it.
• The Templars find his body and dispose of it and all other evidence of their crime with the newly formed spirit-Cole incapable of doing anything against it, either because his capabilities hadn't fully formed yet, or—more likely—because he simply wasn't aware of them yet.
• Some time passes during which spirit-Cole is only occasionally glimpsed by people in the Spire at the edge of their vision, a lonely (non-)existence spirit-Cole is used to, either because of the long loneliness the original Cole had had to endure before his death, or because as a spirit, it wasn't used to human contact anyway—the spirit forgetting its original nature during this time if it didn't already the moment Cole died and imprinted himself on it or something.
• Suddenly spirit-Cole realises that Rhys (being a medium) can see him directly and remember him precisely, which makes him feel like he actually exists and causes all that need for human contact to well up, so he keeps following him and becomes more and more dependant on him.
• Rhys breaks off contact with spirit-Cole who becomes desperate not to fade into non-existence again—this time, he fears, maybe for good—with his only source of recognition gone, i.e. thinking himself the original Cole, he's afraid he's going to die.
• Spirit-Cole is drawn to the pain of people in the Spire (specifically the Pit), realises that in their state they can see (but not remember) him clearly, remembers the excruciating pain the original Cole went through when he died a slow death, offers them a quick death if they want it and with his first kill realises that him being all they see/can fixate on with their eyes in their final moments, he becomes all there is (real) to them. All those intense feelings from both parties (and the fact that—being dead—they won't forget him again) sustain him not in a literal sense (duh) but more like ease his mind for a time, until all that loneliness from lack of human contact starts to become too much to bear again, and he feels himself slipping out of existence again.
• When Rhys re-establishes contact, spirit-Cole regains his primary (and only lasting) source of "existing", and while—being used to his M.O. of the last months—he worries whether that is enough, he tries his best not to lose his sole friend again, which eventually leads to him swearing off mercy-killing for good because there (supposedly) is always another way.
• Finally, when he remembers his true nature, he loses his need to be remembered as proof of his existence.

Seriously, not being able to forgive his killings is one thing, but so spectacularly misinterpreting his motives and relentlessly insisting on him being a brilliant cackling liar/schemer and multiyear serial killer of wee little children, when the book gives no evidence for the latter (no matter how much certain people today may like to think of even seventeen-year-olds as innocent little "babies" that need absolute protection from everything "adult") and exhaustive evidence against the former, is on a whole other level.

I've been thinking for a while now: I doubt our reading lists overlap much, but I assume you've read GRRM's ASoIaF novels (and/or ToDaE et al. novellas)? I take some pride in and confidence from apparently being a reader considerably more attentive than the average. (Not that I am never wrong about something, or nothing ever escapes my notice, but other than pop-culture references to stuff before my time, those are both extremely rare.) So if you have, I presume you are aware of the various popular theories that surround(ed) its many mysteries big and small, several of which already confirmed in later books and/or "confirmed" (amidst all its objective nonsense) by the TV series?

I agree(d) with all the (seemingly) prevalent theories (i.e. those Elio and Linda are on record as agreeing on as well) on secret identities, illicit affairs and past events. (Prophecies however come in different flavors: Most get hints along the way, if not from the start, but others—or at least parts of which—can only really be matched with events in hindsight, and others yet again seem to clearly be references to what could have been, although this type so far only concerning Drogo and Rhaego frankly makes me wonder whether they'll all still end up coming to pass in a less obvious fashion after all. Anyway, I still find myself agreeing with the general consensus.)

And other than Lemore's identity, which I didn't bother to ponder myself at all, I arrived at all those conclusions wholly by myself, while many, many readers were obviously taken aback even by something as painfully obvious in the books as Renly's and Loras's relationship when shown plainly on TV (although that in particular is a subject in which people still tend to be willfully blind and dismissive—for that which must not, can not be—to boot). Some of the rival theories to various "mainstream" ones and especially some proposed elaborate conspiracies however are pretty far out there. Now—since how one can possibly arrive at your conclusions, frankly baffles the hell out of me—my question is: What about you?

[Hellion Rex]

http://roxylucas.tumblr.com/

[Falon'Din]

He can... (he did it with Rys and some of the others towards the end of the book) although I think it's less "invisibility" and more, "affecting the minds of those around you so that they don't notice you." In fact, that's what I suspect Cole's power may be more than true invisibility, just based on how it worked in the book.

Cullens gonna run out of underwear pretty darn quick.

[Falon'Din]

http://roxylucas.tumblr.com/

Annnnnd my heart just broke... Ow...

[Nocte ad Mortem]

That comment about Cole in Redcliffe is interesting. I'll try bringing him when I do it, and Dorian, of course. I think I'll avoid sending Leliana, does not seem to go well. If there's a choice from Josephine to try for a peaceful resolve, I will look into that. I seemed Alexius was doubting his choice. 

[Roxy]

http://roxylucas.tumblr.com/

 

DEAR GOD!!!

 

That's depressing...but it looks Great,thumbs up to the Artist. 

 

I hope we will get to see some drawings of him smiling in the future...

[Fortlowe]

 
...I already told you.
 
*snip*

I'll bite:

 

The original Cole dies with the spirit "holding his hand", which shouldn't be taken literally. A comforting feeling in his hand from an incorporeal presence is more like it.

• This is taken as fact when actually it is Cole's account of what happened to the child. What is a fact is that crossing the Veil is no easy task. How did Cole do it? The only other example there is thus far is the Baroness, who used the life force of a Darkspwn to do it.

The Templars find his body and dispose of it and all other evidence of their crime with the newly formed spirit-Cole incapable of doing anything against it, either because his capabilities hadn't fully formed yet, or—more likely—because he simply wasn't aware of them yet.

• Also a suspect accounting. Cole very early (before this supposed 'maturity') demonstrates the ability to actively obstruct Rhys from finding out about the murders. Thus it is at least as likely that it would deceive Lambert here ( if only to twist the knife a bit before disposing of him) as it is that the child really did starve to death and was not consumed by the spirit as a means of crossing over.

Some time passes during which spirit-Cole is only occasionally glimpsed by people in the Spire at the edge of their vision, a lonely (non-)existence spirit-Cole is used to, either because of the long loneliness the original Cole had had to endure before his death, or because as a spirit, it wasn't used to human contact anyway—the spirit forgetting its original nature during this time if it didn't already the moment Cole died and imprinted himself on it or something.

• This is a period of time that only lends itself to conjecture because we have almost no information regarding it. Your theory is not without cause and I can understand it. I just do not believe it. However this period of time does at least bring into stark contrast two states of affairs regarding Cole's nature: either Cole was not killing during this time and was aware after it did start killing that killing was not what made it exist or it was killing the whole time.

Suddenly spirit-Cole realizes that Rhys (being a medium) can see him directly and remember him precisely, which makes him feel like he actually exists and causes all that need for human contact to well up, so he keeps following him and becomes more and more dependent on him.

• Here we will differ greatly on Cole's objective regarding Rhys. It could be that Cole was planning to make Rhys Cole's next Cole. Cole is not the boy that died in the dungeon, no matter how much the narrative wants to convince us it is. Cole is a separate being entirely that somehow consumed the boys memories. This may be something it wants to repeat.

Rhys breaks off contact with spirit-Cole who becomes desperate not to fade into non-existence again—this time, he fears, maybe for good—with his only source of recognition gone, i.e. thinking himself the original Cole, he's afraid he's going to die.

• I continue to point out, Cole was very aware it existed before it met Rhys. It knows that the very worse that could happen is it would only revert back to the previous status quo.

Spirit-Cole is drawn to the pain of people in the Spire (specifically the Pit), realizes that in their state they can see (but not remember) him clearly, remembers the excruciating pain the original Cole went through when he died a slow death, offers them a quick death if they want it and with his first kill realizes that him being all they see/can fixate on with their eyes in their final moments, he becomes all there is (real) to them. All those intense feelings from both parties (and the fact that—being dead—they won't forget him again) sustain him not in a literal sense (duh) but more like ease his mind for a time, until all that loneliness from lack of human contact starts to become too much to bear again, and he feels himself slipping out of existence again.

• Here our observations are nearly in tandem, only they are from opposite perspectives. You say he is drawn to pain. I say it smells blood. You say he offers them a quick death. I say it manipulates them into thinking death is preferable to living so they don't fight back. We agree Cole finds comfort in the eyes of those it kills. You think it is because it dispels his sense of isolation. I think it is because it enjoys the moment. So far as the killing making Cole feel real? Well it has a quite real conversation with the girl before shoving a knife in her heart. Why not just instead go on talking? It seems to have worked with Rhys.

When Rhys re-establishes contact, spirit-Cole regains his primary (and only lasting) source of "existing", and while—being used to his M.O. of the last months—he worries whether that is enough, he tries his best not to lose his sole friend again, which eventually leads to him swearing off mercy-killing for good because there (supposedly) is always another way.

• I again point to the conversation between Cole and the girl. If Cole could talk to her, then it knows its existence is not dependent on Rhys or anyone else's acknowledgment. Cole existed before meeting Rhys or the girl. That is how it was able to meet them to begin with. So far as why it has become so attached to Rhys specifically, I think it had targeted another life to consume and mimic in Rhys. Rhys is powerful though. Cole must balance protecting its target with moving it into a position to strike.

Finally, when he remembers his true nature, he loses his need to be remembered as proof of his existence.

• I do not believe Cole was ever truly under the impression it really could fade from existence.