6175 réponses à ce sujet

[Faerah]

@Fortlowe

Asunder was partially written in Cole's perspective. It was in 3rd person, but still with his thoughts and opinions on what was going on. If Cole was as deceptive as you think he was, why was he never maniacally templing his fingers, plotting to do whatever to Rhys during the parts focused on him? Actually, if Cole really was being deceptive as you so claim, he was mostly deceiving himself in some convoluted way. I also want to bring up he is very bad at lying, he immediately blurts out the truth without even being pressed about it.

I almost wonder...did you learn that Cole was potentially a demon before reading the book? Do you lean "pro-templar"? Did you dislike Anders after playing DA2? Are you devout in real life to a religion that has analogues of demons/devil? Do you think any of this might have colored your judgement about Cole, forcing yourself to do mental gymnastics to try to make him out as this ultimate, conniving bad guy with little to no evidence behind it? I'm alright with you not liking the character, or wanting to kill him, or using him and throwing him to the wayside when you think he's served his purpose. What really bothers me is your persistence with calling him deceptive and pushing the "child killer" thing when there is no evidence saying any of the 6 murders were children. According to Lambert there were only 6 by the way; 4 initiates and 2 apprentices, neither of which have to be children edit: I can't find anything about initiate, there is no known lore about that rank apparently. You keep pushing it as absolute fact when in reality it is not, it is just your personal (and in my opinion, flawed) theory. It would be a shame for newer posters to come here and get a skewed view from misinformation.

 

P.S.: I'm not trying to start a fight. If my typing comes across aggressive, I'm sorry, it wasn't intended. I'm just trying -really- hard to figure out where you're coming from and why you're trying so hard to paint Cole worse than what's established. I really think you're reading in between the lines and finding things that don't exist.

[Zellya]

@Fortlowe

Asunder was partially written in Cole's perspective. It was in 3rd person, but still with his thoughts and opinions on what was going on. If Cole was as deceptive as you think he was, why was he never maniacally templing his fingers, plotting to do whatever to Rhys during the parts focused on him? Actually, if Cole really was being deceptive as you so claim, he was mostly deceiving himself in some convoluted way. I also want to bring up he is very bad at lying, he immediately blurts out the truth without even being pressed about it.

I almost wonder...did you learn that Cole was potentially a demon before reading the book? Do you lean "pro-templar"? Did you dislike Anders after playing DA2? Are you devout in real life to a religion that has analogues of demons/devil? Do you think any of this might have colored your judgement about Cole, forcing yourself to do mental gymnastics to try to make him out as this ultimate, conniving bad guy with little to no evidence behind it? I'm alright with you not liking the character, or wanting to kill him, or using him and throwing him to the wayside when you think he's served his purpose. What really bothers me is your persistence with calling him deceptive and pushing the "child killer" thing when there is no evidence saying any of the 6 murders were children. According to Lambert there were only 6 by the way; 4 initiates and 2 apprentices, neither of which have to be children edit: I can't find anything about initiate, there is no known lore about that rank apparently. You keep pushing it as absolute fact when in reality it is not, it is just your personal (and in my opinion, flawed) theory. It would be a shame for newer posters to come here and get a skewed view from misinformation.

 

P.S.: I'm not trying to start a fight. If my typing comes across aggressive, I'm sorry, it wasn't intended. I'm just trying -really- hard to figure out where you're coming from and why you're trying so hard to paint Cole worse than what's established. I really think you're reading in between the lines and finding things that don't exist.

 

Where did Lambert say some of the victims were initiates? I though all of them were mages (in the spire that is).

 

I must have skimmed over a line or something >.>

[Faerah]

Where did Lambert say some of the victims were initiates? I though all of them were mages (in the spire that is).

 

I must have skimmed over a line or something >.>

Page 50 at the very top of the page in the physical book; chapter 3. Wait is initiate a templar rank? (incoming edit after I look it up) 

 

Aaaaand Edit: I have no idea what an initiate is supposed to be, unless it's an honorary/side title for something. I can't find it on the wiki at least.

[Fortlowe]

I am not pro mage or anti templar. I'm pro 'action speaks louder' and anti 'lets forget about all the atrocities from before'. For example: Dorian is a Tevinter. I'd very much like to like Dorian, but if he owned/ owns slaves, well he can talk all he likes about changing Tevinter, the fact is he is a slaver. Anders was cool until he decided to go domestic terrorist. Meredith should have pulled the stick out way before she got the idol.

 

So far as what Cole thinks as opposed to what Cole does? Did you read the Calling? Three examples of characters actions betraying their thoughts: The Architect, Bregan, and Fiona. The Architect thinks about making the world a better place for man and darkspawn altogether. What it does is hatch a plan to wipe out mankind altogether. Bregan thinks all darkspawn are evil and should die. What he does is join them. Fiona thinks Marrick is repulsive. What she does is have his kid. 

 

My opinion of Cole is almost entirely formed from the murder it did in the first chapter of Asunder. I realize my interpretation is not popular, but I read a child being murdered so Cole could feel good about itself. I do think my interpretation hits more closely to the intent than the opposing view. She says magic caught her off guard. It's a lie, but the lore indicates magic manifests at a rather young age (I'm referencing Wynne's introduction to magic, the children she is guarding in the tower when she meets Warden, and Conner). Her lie is only plausible if she is of the age magic first manifests. Even the wiki says:

 

The Circle is allowed to take any child (usually age six to twelve) from their families as soon as they show signs of magical ability, including those from royals and nobility.

 

That Cole kills kids is horrible, however even an adult killed under the circumstances involving Cole is cruelty, not compassion. It sneaks into the cell of people at the end of their rope and convinces them that it's better if Cole kills them when it knows...knows they could go on to live happy lives. Before you say it doesn't convince them, read the first chapter again. Cole is the only one that says the girl should die. We've all heard the saying: Suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problem. If Cole felt such compassion for these individuals, and they could obviously speak with it, granting it the human contact Cole apparently so deeply desires (right ) why kill them? Why end the lives of people that made Cole feel real? Presumably their acknowledgement was a gift. In return he kills them? It doesn't track.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Man, you are dedicated to hating Cole. I've never seen anyone in any of the other character threads with this kind of negative conviction. It's.. impressive?  

[Fortlowe]

Actually, I don't hate Cole in concept. I find the character quite intriguing. I just don't buy the sob story. The one it stole from another helpless child, mind you.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Actually, I don't hate Cole in concept. I find the character quite intriguing. I just don't buy the sob story. The one it stole from another helpless child, mind you.

What if it turns out Cole's intentions are true and he comes through Inquisition without any form of betrayal, or anything like that? What if there aren't any hidden motivations and he does selflessly want to help? Just, in theory, let's imagine that's what happens. How will you feel then? 

[Eveangaline]

Man, you are dedicated to hating Cole. I've never seen anyone in any of the other character threads with this kind of negative conviction. It's.. impressive?  

 

To be fair, I think we'd all hate Cole if he was at all like their headcanon version of Cole. They dreamed up a pretty nasty character. I mean I wouldn't feel the need to constantly bring it up over and over and basically make the same comments and claims again and again but I'd dislike him.

 

As it is I interpret Cole as a character who did bad things, but didn't really have the capacity to fully grasp why what he was doing bad, or the consequences of it. So I judge him the same way I do children who do terrible things.

[Faerah]

Alright, so let's say that girl in the beginning of the book is a child. Nevermind her being a teenager or young adult. Does it really matter? Cole is still a murderer regardless of the target's age. And murder is pretty high on the list of terrible things, so we could just leave it at that instead of crying from the rooftops that he's a "child murderer". We don't absolutely know their ages, it is never explicitly stated. Hell, maybe "initiate" means someone just brought in to the Circle that hasn't had any training yet. If that were true, Cole killed exactly 4 "children". But again, we don't know for sure. Remember, mage!warden and Jowan were both apprentices and they were much older than "child".

 

Also, let's bring up the fact that she enjoyed killing her parents. While it was not intentional, Cole was almost a vigilante in this particular scenario. What would happen the next time she lost her temper? What if all of his targets had similar stories (hence them being in the dungeons and hopeless in the first place)? We don't know, yet at least. Maybe he'll tell us; maybe he'll repent. It's obvious that Cole has chosen to do good in the world now, according to the developers and his writer. They would know best too. I don't really understand why you question Cole's character so much. Yes, he did terrible things but characters like Isabela and Sten (and others) did far, far worse. At least Cole learned (is learning?) from his past transgressions unlike Isabela, which continued to leave a path of destruction behind her because of her selfishness.

 

Edit: Oh and Isabela is just a regular human, no spirit influence behind her to compel her to kill that cargo hold of slaves. Sure, she did it to save her own hide, and maybe to save her crew (which would be slightly less terrible, I suppose). But Cole was under the impression that he too would "die". While yes, murder is bad, when it comes to these fictional characters essentially struggling with survival, I'll cut them some slack.

[Fortlowe]

Alright, so let's say that girl in the beginning of the book is a child. Nevermind her being a teenager or young adult. Does it really matter? Cole is still a murderer regardless of the target's age. And murder is pretty high on the list of terrible things, so we could just leave it at that instead of crying from the rooftops that he's a "child murderer". We don't absolutely know their ages, it is never explicitly stated. Hell, maybe "initiate" means someone just brought in to the Circle that hasn't had any training yet. If that were true, Cole killed exactly 4 "children". But again, we don't know for sure. Remember, mage!warden and Jowan were both apprentices and they were much older than "child".

 

Also, let's bring up the fact that she enjoyed killing her parents. While it was not intentional, Cole was almost a vigilante in this particular scenario. What would happen the next time she lost her temper? What if all of his targets had similar stories (hence them being in the dungeons and hopeless in the first place)? We don't know, yet at least. Maybe he'll tell us; maybe he'll repent. It's obvious that Cole has chosen to do good in the world now, according to the developers and his writer. They would know best too. I don't really understand why you question Cole's character so much. Yes, he did terrible things but characters like Isabela and Sten (and others) did far, far worse. At least Cole learned (is learning?) from his past transgressions unlike Isabela, which continued to leave a path of destruction behind her because of her selfishness.

 

Edit: Oh and Isabela is just a regular human, no spirit influence behind her to compel her to kill that cargo hold of slaves. Sure, she did it to save her own hide, and maybe to save her crew (which would be slightly less terrible, I suppose). But Cole was under the impression that he too would "die". While yes, murder is bad, when it comes to these fictional characters essentially struggling with survival, I'll cut them some slack.

It's interesting that you bring up a Isabela; another character that lied to us about their motives. Though in Isabela's case she lied to hide a shame, and not even her own mind you, not a crime. That she was sold as a cattle, she always admits. That her mother did it because she was ashamed of Isabela/ Naishe not simply callous, she only reveals under the most extreme duress. This, to me, is not the agenda of an entirely selfish person, as Isabela would have others believe.

 

I actually predicted the 'vigilante' rationalization for Cole's crimes some pages ago. This is why I find the character so intriguing. Cole seems designed from the ground up to make observers forget what its actual circumstances and actions constitute, in lieu of a construct of its own making. It can actually do what it says it can do, and that is unbelievably brilliant writing. Question: Does Cole know the girl killed her family before it entered her cell?

[Ceoldoren]

It's interesting that you bring up a Isabela; another character that lied to us about their motives. Though in Isabela's case she lied to hide a shame, and not even her own mind you, not a crime. That she was sold as a cattle, she always admits. That her mother did it because she was ashamed of Isabela/ Naishe not simply callous, she only reveals under the most extreme duress. This, to me, is not the agenda of an entirely selfish person, as Isabela would have others believe.

 

I actually predicted the 'vigilante' rationalization for Cole's crimes some pages ago. This is why I find the character so intriguing. Cole seems designed from the ground up to make observers forget what its actual circumstances and actions constitute, in lieu of a construct of its own making. It can actually do what it says it can do, and that is unbelievably brilliant writing. Question: Does Cole know the girl killed her family before it entered her cell?

Why do you keep calling him an it ? I think he can have a gender, spirit or not.

[Faerah]

It's interesting that you bring up a Isabela; another character that lied to us about their motives. Though in Isabela's case she lied to hide a shame, and not even her own mind you, not a crime. That she was sold as a cattle, she always admits. That her mother did it because she was ashamed of Isabela/ Naishe not simply callous, she only reveals under the most extreme duress. This, to me, is not the agenda of an entirely selfish person, as Isabela would have others believe.

I only call her selfish because she chose her life over many slaves. She could have sacrificed herself to the Orlesian authorities and presumably all of the slaves would have been spared. Then she chose to steal the Tome instead of just deal with or avoid Kastillon, which got her crew killed and inadvertently starting a war in Kirkwall. The latter isn't as much selfish as careless though, I suppose. She sure didn't weigh the pro's and con's of all the potential outcomes. You can't really say these incidents were directly caused by her being sold in an arranged marriage. And lying had nothing to do with her decision making before she even met Hawke.

 

I actually predicted the 'vigilante' rationalization for Cole's crimes some pages ago. This is why I find the character so intriguing. Cole seems designed from the ground up to make observers forget what its actual circumstances and actions constitute, in lieu of a construct of its own making. It can actually do what it says it can do, and that is unbelievably brilliant writing. Question: Does Cole know the girl killed her family before it entered her cell?

I don't understand why you think the people that like Cole's character forget he's done terrible things. The main difference between your viewpoints and ours is that you headcanon Cole as a master of deception and manipulation. Which I'm fairly certain he is not because it's never established from his POV in the book. Let's face it, Cole was complete trash at everything except doing his invisibility thing. Oh and plus your "child murderer" thing too. It's not that we entirely deny that he has potentially killed children. We just acknowledge that it was never actually stated whether any of the victims were children or not. Especially since Rhys didn't say something like "They were children, Cole!" while he was reprimanding Cole about the murders. You, on the other hand, state this as absolute fact at least half the time, when (I'll say it again) is just theory until we get some sort of official confirmation (if we ever do). I guess we also sympathize with the tragic aspect of Cole, while you just think it's some sort of guise to fool us into a knife in the heart (tying back into the "master of deception and manipulation")

 

Edit: As for the book being written in a way as to deceive the reader of Cole's actual perspective: this is what i'm talking about when I said I think you're reading between the lines and finding things that don't exist.

[cogsandcurls]

Yeah, when you get to the point of "I've read whole chapters from this character's PoV but am choosing to ignore all of what is contained therein" I think you're getting into interesting-but-entirely-fabricated-in-your-own-head theory territory.

 

Like, I could go "I think Evangeline has been in league with DAI's Big Bad the entire time and the whole side-switching to help the mages thing was nothing to do with recognising their plight as depicted in her PoV text and entirely to do with engineering a situation in which the Breach could be made to happen" but to do that I'd have to completely disregard everything in Asunder that was written from her PoV. Which seems absurd, frankly. I mean, I might sit here and think such a plot twist would be interesting but there's absolutely nothing in the text that supports it.

[Aremce]

Agreed. I'm also pretty sure that Mr Gaider and Mr Weekes have not agreed to some sort of sinister plot to deceive the fans about Cole. It would be very strange to be consistent through a book (that has PoV chapters of the character in question) and character descriptions and interviews just to finally reveal the horrible truth in Inquisition ...^^

 

Cole has enough flaws, but I'm actually completely sure that he's not malicious.

(I do agree with Fortlowe in the one point, though: Good intentions don't guarantee good final outcomes. It's possible that Cole will do something stupid because he, again, doesn't know better. But not because of malice; and I also really don't think he would go back to killing "innocents". He is trying, after all, and has learned better ways.)

[Faerah]

Cole has enough flaws, but I'm actually completely sure that he's not malicious.

(I do agree with Fortlowe in the one point, though: Good intentions don't guarantee good final outcomes. It's possible that Cole will do something stupid because he, again, doesn't know better. But not because of malice; and I also really don't think he would go back to killing "innocents". He is trying, after all, and has learned better ways.)

Definitely this. Even if we play the most good/good inquisitor as possible, it sounds like even we will make some terrible decisions inadvertently. If the inquisitor can be faulted like that (especially as the player character/hero), Cole would probably be worse off even if he is absolutely devoted to doing good things. I actually expect him to make some really bad judgement calls, but not to the extreme as "helping" by killing desperate people like he did in the dungeons. I'm confident he understands that there are other options now and that killing innocents is not acceptable.

[Falon'Din]

Actually, I don't hate Cole in concept. I find the character quite intriguing. I just don't buy the sob story. The one it stole from another helpless child, mind you.

Right... Because his writers even said (you know, because they wrote his character) that he killed people because he thought he was disappearing.

[Falon'Din]

The arguing on this thread is getting kinda... Lame.

[Joe25]

I got my hair cut the other day and I came out looking like this. 

Spoiler

I this morning it looks like this.

Spoiler

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So far as what Cole thinks as opposed to what Cole does? Did you read the Calling? Three examples of characters actions betraying their thoughts: The Architect, Bregan, and Fiona. The Architect thinks about making the world a better place for man and darkspawn altogether. What it does is hatch a plan to wipe out mankind altogether. Bregan thinks all darkspawn are evil and should die. What he does is join them. Fiona thinks Marrick is repulsive. What she does is have his kid. 

You know people are allowed to change their opinions of people, right? Fiona is allowed to originally find Maric repulsive, but over time have her opinions change to the point where she loves him and even bear his child.  

[Falon'Din]

I got my hair cut the other day and I came out looking like this.

Spoiler

I this morning it looks like this.

Spoiler

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

That's... The best thing ever

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I got my hair cut the other day and I came out looking like this. 

Spoiler

I this morning it looks like this.

Spoiler

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? 

Bangs are always a good thing.

[Gervaise]

I've been away from here for days and Fortlowe is still arguing about Cole!  

In answer to the question "Does Cole know when he enters the cell that the girl wanted to kill her parents?"   Well, may be he does, even if only at a subconscious/instinctive sort of level.    The spirit/demon Ishmael says how people's thoughts keep leaking out of their heads for him to read.    This is apparently how powerful spirits know who they can manipulated and how.    So it follows that since Cole is a spirit, presumably he can/could do the same.    I have doubts over whether he still can because it may be that as he becomes more "human" he loses some of his spirit abilities.    Ishmael could also make people appear invisible to others just as Cole could make himself or those he was in contact with (Rhys).    In fact Cole found it harder to make people see and remember him.   However, this is presumably not still the case since we are able to see him.   Is this because he now wants us to see him or because he can no longer maintain continuous invisibility?

 

In some ways I see Cole like the Terminator in Terminator 2, Judgement Day.    A terminator has been created to kill.   It gets sent back to protect the young John Conner by his older self.   Near the beginning of the movie the terminator nearly kills someone because John asked them for assistance against the terminator and they attacked it.   He manages to stop it from killing.   It asks why?    He tells it that it mustn't go around killing stuff.    He also reprograms it so it can start to learn and develop.    Later in the movie it succeeds in causing quite a lot of damage in order to stop their pursuers but continues to follow his orders and so does so without causing any deaths.

 

So I imagine that Cole at the beginning of  Asunder was like the Terminator at the beginning of the movie.   The spirit was operating partly off the memories it had taken from the boy Cole but mostly according to its nature, even though it wasn't aware that it was a spirit.       As the novel progressed, with Rhys' guidance, it started to develop a mortality and became more the boy Cole and less the spirit.   However, as shown at the end with Lambert, he is still basically a terminator.     Whether or not he progresses further with his morality will be down to the Inquisitor.   If the Inquisitor turns out to be a bad guy, either Cole will reject them because his role model has failed him or possibly just mimic them because he feels compelled to adopt the morality of his guide.

[Joe25]

...I cant find it in me to hate this guy.

I know he's creepy, but creepy to the point that you just want to hug him and never let go. 

[weremoogle]

I wonder how we get to recruit Cole? Do you think we'll stumble onto him, or will he come find us? Possibly at our castle, if anyone can slip into the Skyhold undetected it's Cole.